Pretty simple question, do Pretty simple question, do you have faith in the jury giving Sam and Raymond and fair and just conclusion?
Well, as fair nod just as can be had given one of them is dead.
spdrun
July 30, 2015 @
4:42 PM
Why didn’t the cop collect Why didn’t the cop collect information (name, DOB, plate #) and run it on his terminal? Then ticket, warn, or impound the car as needed. Right now, they can even pull up license pictures, so identification shouldn’t be a problem.
Instead of telling the guy to take off his seat belt and reaching at the car. Maybe the guy felt some sort of threat at this point.
Regardless, AFAIK, unless the person is a suspect in a violent felony, shooting at him isn’t legal. He should spend some time in jail. Manslaughter, unpremeditated murder, civil rights violation under color of law, whatever.
poorgradstudent
July 31, 2015 @
10:26 AM
Video evidence is pretty Video evidence is pretty conclusive and compelling. Any time you have a jury trial you run the risk of one individual resulting in a strange verdict. But in this particular case the video evidence conflicts so much with the officer’s testimiony that it seriously calls into question his credibility and character.
I’m not familiar enough with how Ohio courts work to really be more certain.
no_such_reality
July 31, 2015 @
10:57 AM
I don’t see it that way. And I don’t see it that way. And you all know my opinion on cases like the Kelly Thomas verdict.
The gun is excessive, not sure what the suspended license Dubois has is about, and is that a sealed bottle of Gin from the front floor? Not sure what the process there is for having people get out of their car (that needs to stop too, although with a bottle even sealed a DUI check may be warranted). Dubois seems disorientated, doesn’t have his license, asks a second time why he is stopped when the offiver previously told him about the plate and dubois told him it was in the glove box, is Dubois confused? Impaired by alcohol? The officer asks him to take his seatbelt off and Dubois restarts the car and puts it in gear. The officer says stop and reaches in,, Dubois bats away or grabs not sure, gun comes out (that whole start/shot thing is about 5 seconds and happens at the start of the altercation on starting the car. Cars are dangerous when you’re standing next to it.
The car is in gear, not clear if his hand is grabbed or not, not drug, but possibly being hung onto, not clear what Dubois intention in the car is.
And all of this in a situation were I can clearly say, people shouldn’t get shot at a traffic stop, yet, the officers shouldn’t just let such a stop just drive away either?
Hence my question, people are very no shades of grey on this item already, the media is chopping the video and fanning it.
I don’t see much debate occurring, I see people already concluded and screaming for blood.
I don’t a see and “angry white cop”, I saw an officer, up to the door touch, being professional trying to get a clear answer from a stopped motorist that had a bottle of alcohol (closed), was a bit incoherent and had suspended license and that same motorist then restarted his car and put it in gear.
It’s not video game, there’s no reset, if Dubois, cranks the car and drives over the officer, the officer isn’t going to respawn in 3 seconds.
Yet, officers shouldn’t shoot traffic stops. Nor should they just let people drive away without trying to stop them. What happens when the person then instintively grabs the officers hand?
This isn’t cut and dried, this is a mess. If the officer felt like his hand was grab or caught, what’s he supposed to do? Because it look a bit like he got pulled toward the car, which would feel like getting dragged.
spdrun
July 31, 2015 @
11:20 AM
Case law is clear on this Case law is clear on this matter — unless they’re a suspect in a violent felony, you can’t use lethal force to prevent flight. Take the plate # and find them later.
Unclear whether the license was suspended. He didn’t have the document in hand, but that doesn’t mean that he wasn’t licensed to drive.
Hope the cop fries for it. We need to set some examples to discourage future abuses. Here’s one guy who got his home invaded at gunpoint because a ratty neighbor snitched that there was a “squatter” sleeping there. Except that his landlord had moved him to a new apartment due to a leak:
I understand the need for I understand the need for campus police. They know and interact with the young students, and may be better at handling limited situations. As a general rule, they are not involved in felony stops, entering houses with guns drawn, etc. and don’t have near the experience as local law enforcement.
Once they’re off campus, I don’t see any reason for them to be pulling over non-students for a missing front license plate. That should be left up to the real police.
FlyerInHi
July 31, 2015 @
3:17 PM
PCinSD wrote:
Once they’re [quote=PCinSD]
Once they’re off campus, I don’t see any reason for them to be pulling over non-students for a missing front license plate. That should be left up to the real police.[/quote]
Power trip.
spdrun
July 31, 2015 @
3:24 PM
There are different kinds of There are different kinds of campus police. Here, some state university cops are actually cops, allowed to carry guns and arrest people. Then there’s campus security, typically in private schools, which are basically glorified security guards.
I don’t know if even “unarmed” guards in states with less restrictive gun laws can get a concealed permit and carry unofficially.
Anonymous
August 1, 2015 @
7:06 AM
no_such_reality [quote=no_such_reality]officers shouldn’t just let such a stop just drive away either?[/quote]
That was the cop’s only legal option (unless his life was in danger, which it clearly was not, and that’s why the cop fabricated the “he was dragging me” story afterward …)
Americans have seen too many Dirty Harry type movies where justice is administered at the scene in the form of a death sentence. It seems that many people think that the law allows police this extreme latitude with deadly force.
“He was committing a crime” or “he was disobeying” are not justifications for summary execution.
[quote]It’s not video game, there’s no reset, if Dubois, cranks the car and drives over the officer, the officer isn’t going to respawn in 3 seconds.[/quote]
You’re right: it’s not a video game and neither party gets to respawn afterward.
The cop took a person’s life when he had so many other courses of action available. He needs to be held accountable.
Anonymous
July 31, 2015 @
7:53 AM
The incident and the The incident and the associated issues are worthy of a national debate.
July 30, 2015 @ 4:27 PM
Pretty simple question, do
Pretty simple question, do you have faith in the jury giving Sam and Raymond and fair and just conclusion?
Well, as fair nod just as can be had given one of them is dead.
July 30, 2015 @ 4:42 PM
Why didn’t the cop collect
Why didn’t the cop collect information (name, DOB, plate #) and run it on his terminal? Then ticket, warn, or impound the car as needed. Right now, they can even pull up license pictures, so identification shouldn’t be a problem.
Instead of telling the guy to take off his seat belt and reaching at the car. Maybe the guy felt some sort of threat at this point.
Regardless, AFAIK, unless the person is a suspect in a violent felony, shooting at him isn’t legal. He should spend some time in jail. Manslaughter, unpremeditated murder, civil rights violation under color of law, whatever.
July 31, 2015 @ 10:26 AM
Video evidence is pretty
Video evidence is pretty conclusive and compelling. Any time you have a jury trial you run the risk of one individual resulting in a strange verdict. But in this particular case the video evidence conflicts so much with the officer’s testimiony that it seriously calls into question his credibility and character.
I’m not familiar enough with how Ohio courts work to really be more certain.
July 31, 2015 @ 10:57 AM
I don’t see it that way. And
I don’t see it that way. And you all know my opinion on cases like the Kelly Thomas verdict.
The gun is excessive, not sure what the suspended license Dubois has is about, and is that a sealed bottle of Gin from the front floor? Not sure what the process there is for having people get out of their car (that needs to stop too, although with a bottle even sealed a DUI check may be warranted). Dubois seems disorientated, doesn’t have his license, asks a second time why he is stopped when the offiver previously told him about the plate and dubois told him it was in the glove box, is Dubois confused? Impaired by alcohol? The officer asks him to take his seatbelt off and Dubois restarts the car and puts it in gear. The officer says stop and reaches in,, Dubois bats away or grabs not sure, gun comes out (that whole start/shot thing is about 5 seconds and happens at the start of the altercation on starting the car. Cars are dangerous when you’re standing next to it.
The car is in gear, not clear if his hand is grabbed or not, not drug, but possibly being hung onto, not clear what Dubois intention in the car is.
And all of this in a situation were I can clearly say, people shouldn’t get shot at a traffic stop, yet, the officers shouldn’t just let such a stop just drive away either?
Hence my question, people are very no shades of grey on this item already, the media is chopping the video and fanning it.
I don’t see much debate occurring, I see people already concluded and screaming for blood.
I don’t a see and “angry white cop”, I saw an officer, up to the door touch, being professional trying to get a clear answer from a stopped motorist that had a bottle of alcohol (closed), was a bit incoherent and had suspended license and that same motorist then restarted his car and put it in gear.
It’s not video game, there’s no reset, if Dubois, cranks the car and drives over the officer, the officer isn’t going to respawn in 3 seconds.
Yet, officers shouldn’t shoot traffic stops. Nor should they just let people drive away without trying to stop them. What happens when the person then instintively grabs the officers hand?
This isn’t cut and dried, this is a mess. If the officer felt like his hand was grab or caught, what’s he supposed to do? Because it look a bit like he got pulled toward the car, which would feel like getting dragged.
July 31, 2015 @ 11:20 AM
Case law is clear on this
Case law is clear on this matter — unless they’re a suspect in a violent felony, you can’t use lethal force to prevent flight. Take the plate # and find them later.
Unclear whether the license was suspended. He didn’t have the document in hand, but that doesn’t mean that he wasn’t licensed to drive.
Hope the cop fries for it. We need to set some examples to discourage future abuses. Here’s one guy who got his home invaded at gunpoint because a ratty neighbor snitched that there was a “squatter” sleeping there. Except that his landlord had moved him to a new apartment due to a leak:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/in-iraq-i-raided-insurgents-in-virginia-the-police-raided-me/2015/07/24/2e114e54-2b02-11e5-bd33-395c05608059_story.html
July 31, 2015 @ 2:02 PM
I understand the need for
I understand the need for campus police. They know and interact with the young students, and may be better at handling limited situations. As a general rule, they are not involved in felony stops, entering houses with guns drawn, etc. and don’t have near the experience as local law enforcement.
Once they’re off campus, I don’t see any reason for them to be pulling over non-students for a missing front license plate. That should be left up to the real police.
July 31, 2015 @ 3:17 PM
PCinSD wrote:
Once they’re
[quote=PCinSD]
Once they’re off campus, I don’t see any reason for them to be pulling over non-students for a missing front license plate. That should be left up to the real police.[/quote]
Power trip.
July 31, 2015 @ 3:24 PM
There are different kinds of
There are different kinds of campus police. Here, some state university cops are actually cops, allowed to carry guns and arrest people. Then there’s campus security, typically in private schools, which are basically glorified security guards.
I don’t know if even “unarmed” guards in states with less restrictive gun laws can get a concealed permit and carry unofficially.
August 1, 2015 @ 7:06 AM
no_such_reality
[quote=no_such_reality]officers shouldn’t just let such a stop just drive away either?[/quote]
That was the cop’s only legal option (unless his life was in danger, which it clearly was not, and that’s why the cop fabricated the “he was dragging me” story afterward …)
Americans have seen too many Dirty Harry type movies where justice is administered at the scene in the form of a death sentence. It seems that many people think that the law allows police this extreme latitude with deadly force.
“He was committing a crime” or “he was disobeying” are not justifications for summary execution.
[quote]It’s not video game, there’s no reset, if Dubois, cranks the car and drives over the officer, the officer isn’t going to respawn in 3 seconds.[/quote]
You’re right: it’s not a video game and neither party gets to respawn afterward.
The cop took a person’s life when he had so many other courses of action available. He needs to be held accountable.
July 31, 2015 @ 7:53 AM
The incident and the
The incident and the associated issues are worthy of a national debate.
But your survey question is silly.