I hope that that douchebag I hope that that douchebag Ahmadinejad and the ayatollah get their asses beat.
SK in CV
June 16, 2009 @
8:54 PM
That ship has That ship has sailed.
Ahmadinejad was expected to get significantly less than 1/2 the votes, and an hour after the polls closed, it was reported that all the ballots had been counted (hand counted) and he received 2/3 of the votes. That was the coup d’état.
Now the question is whether it can or will be undone.
PadreBrian
June 16, 2009 @
9:05 PM
The Ruhollah will squash any The Ruhollah will squash any descent. He’s the real leader anyway.
urbanrealtor
June 16, 2009 @
9:44 PM
As some of y’all know, I am a As some of y’all know, I am a great big nerd.
I read that article and couldn’t help but key in on one phrase, “iranian bloggers.” So if they have have bloggers, they have the internet, if they have the internet, then they have porn and they are going to want an iphone and HDTV, I don’t think they can control a people anymore once technology sets in.
sd_matt
June 18, 2009 @
2:55 AM
I agree with this to the I agree with this to the extent that the have-nots can communicate with the haves.
Allan from Fallbrook
June 16, 2009 @
9:55 PM
Same old song, different Same old song, different verse. There were reports of a potential revolution in earlier elections and it was rumored, after Khatami came to power, that his election “marked a turning point” in Iran and that we’d see fundamental changes take place.
Not so much. The true power in that country is held by the clerics and the IRGC (Iranian Revolutionary Guards Council) and I-Am-A-Dinner-Jacket is nothing more than a mouthpiece.
Whatever perceived “legitimacy” that has been lost due to a hijacked election will fade and it’ll be business as usual.
I think Obama has played his hand well by staying out of this situation and not agitating on behalf of Mousavi, which has robbed the Iranians of a convenient red herring (had he done so), but this will all blow over, just watch.
svelte
June 17, 2009 @
3:54 PM
I agree with Alan.
I’ve I agree with Alan.
I’ve watched Iran for over 20 years now. This sort of thing happens with every big election there.
Marches, demonstrations, beatings, killings for a few weeks.
Then everything gets back to Iran’s version of “normal”.
afx114
June 17, 2009 @
9:52 PM
svelte/Allan: I’m no Iran svelte/Allan: I’m no Iran expert, but I think you are failing to notice the Black Swan in all of this. No one could have predicted the role that technology would play. Sure, the powers that be knew they could control TV, print, and phone communications. Sure they figured they’d let the people blow off some steam for a while and then everything would go back to “normal.” But when’s the last time you saw a 69 year old dude — let alone the Grand Ayatolla of Iran — know what the fuck the internet is about? Or how to control it? Or how to prevent it from taking you down?
I think they’re all scared shitless, because no one really knows what to expect this time. Variables are unknown… equation not solvable. *blue screen of death*
.
.
.
NO CARRIER
Zeitgeist
June 17, 2009 @
10:02 PM
I agree, the new forms of I agree, the new forms of communication played a huge part in this and will continue to voice the need for reforms. That genie is out of the bottle and it is only a matter of time before there are more changes or will they go Tiananmen Square on the protesters? Time will tell.
patb
June 17, 2009 @
10:59 PM
Zeitgeist wrote:I agree, the [quote=Zeitgeist]I agree, the new forms of communication played a huge part in this and will continue to voice the need for reforms. That genie is out of the bottle and it is only a matter of time before there are more changes or will they go Tiananmen Square on the protesters? Time will tell. [/quote]
Doubt it the protests are too large.
Allan from Fallbrook
June 18, 2009 @
2:59 PM
patb wrote:Zeitgeist wrote:I [quote=patb][quote=Zeitgeist]I agree, the new forms of communication played a huge part in this and will continue to voice the need for reforms. That genie is out of the bottle and it is only a matter of time before there are more changes or will they go Tiananmen Square on the protesters? Time will tell. [/quote]
Doubt it the protests are too large.[/quote]
Unfortunately, the “real” crackdown by government forces has yet to occur. We’ve seen fairly minor suppression, but the Basij militia and the IRGC have yet to really weigh in. If/when that happens, it’s probably Game Over for the protests and protestors.
mike92104
June 18, 2009 @
3:41 PM
I think this has really put I think this has really put the powers that be in a pickle. Do they begin beating people in the streets knowing they can no longer control the media and the images WILL get out, do they admit they stole an election and get people even more upset, or do they just quietly slip out the back and become a religious rather than political leader once again?
You have to hand it to the Iranians for there use of twitter and such to get around the govt. I think we could learn from that. I also thought it was interesting to hear about requests for all the twitter users in the world to reset their home town to Tehran to try to confuse the government who’s using the info to crack down on protesters. Seems like a real opportunity to get the world involved in a people led, peaceful overthrow of their leaders.
Interesting times.
afx114
June 18, 2009 @
3:54 PM
Allan from Fallbrook [quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Unfortunately, the “real” crackdown by government forces has yet to occur. We’ve seen fairly minor suppression, but the Basij militia and the IRGC have yet to really weigh in.[/quote]
Latest word is that now the Basij are fearful for their lives and wearing masks because people have been identifying and targeting them from photos on the internets.
afx114 wrote:svelte/Allan: [quote=afx114]svelte/Allan: I’m no Iran expert, but I think you are failing to notice the Black Swan in all of this. [/quote]
It’s certainly possible you’re right and I’m no Iran expert either…
It will be interesting to watch, whatever happens.
Coronita
June 18, 2009 @
12:00 PM
Now all we need to do is just Now all we need to do is just slip a few arms under the table to opposition leaders and things get very interesting….
Oh wait, never mind…Deja Vu.
pencilneck
June 18, 2009 @
1:00 PM
I don’t have any real opinion I don’t have any real opinion one way or the other on Iran. But a lot of very reputable sources have said that the alleged instability in Pakistan has been very overstated of late, and the experts of the region didn’t seem to understand why.
So talk about deja vu.
Arraya
June 18, 2009 @
3:56 PM
Now for the unpopular Now for the unpopular view;)
Whether we anybody likes it or not Ahmadinejad is a well liked politician in Iran. Obviously, DC hates Iran because they like to do what they want. I know for most the is incomprehensible. Still, the media’s portrayal of this event is completely and utterly disingenuous and is portrayed to create an emotional effect on us.
It’s 75% propaganda. As soon as the election results were in the MSM jumped on the fraud bandwagon fast and furious. No critical look at the situation at all. Nobody knows what exactly happened and Ahmadinejad polled higher in the pre-election polls. All we get is a little slice of reality, through camera lenses, in the big city areas where Mousavi won. Ironically, with many of the signs in english. Even evidence of internet intervention by the west has been uncovered with twitter from Israel and San Francisco.
I’m not for or against anybody in Iran. However, I am against propaganda and people telling me how to think. The West’s hypocrisy in the ME knows no bounds as evident by our support of much more despicable regimes in the area. Washington and Israel don’t care about peace and democracy in the area, all they are about is submission. Enjoy the rest of the psy-ops. DC is hoping they get brutal for your viewing pleasure.
Arraya
June 18, 2009 @
4:08 PM
Signs…: Now who did they [img_assist|nid=11335|title=Signs…|desc=Now who did they write these signs for? I wonder if they have Diebold in Iran?|link=node|align=left|width=842|height=500]
mike92104
June 18, 2009 @
4:11 PM
I’m all for psy-ops. Maybe I’m all for psy-ops. Maybe this is the kind of thing we should be doing. Instead of dropping bombs, we should drop in Twitter, Facebook, and Gmail enabled picture phones that are serviced by high flying psy-op type planes. Seems a lot cheaper and more effective to me. Imagine if everyone in North Korea suddenly had that technology. I doubt they would give it up, and probably depose anyone that tried, but I could be an optimist.
Arraya
June 18, 2009 @
4:32 PM
mike92104 wrote:I’m all for [quote=mike92104]I’m all for psy-ops. Maybe this is the kind of thing we should be doing. Instead of dropping bombs, we should drop in Twitter, Facebook, and Gmail enabled picture phones that are serviced by high flying psy-op type planes. Seems a lot cheaper and more effective to me. Imagine if everyone in North Korea suddenly had that technology. I doubt they would give it up, and probably depose anyone that tried, but I could be an optimist.[/quote]
The point is:
A) You are being told what to think by misrepresentation of the facts and manipulating of events
B) Ahmadinejad probably won the election
C) There are people much much worse off than the Iranians that we support the brutality against with our tax dollars, but you won’t see them paraded around on the Tell-E-Vision for your sympathy because that would not be good for business.
mike92104
June 18, 2009 @
4:52 PM
Arraya wrote:mike92104 [quote=Arraya][quote=mike92104]I’m all for psy-ops. Maybe this is the kind of thing we should be doing. Instead of dropping bombs, we should drop in Twitter, Facebook, and Gmail enabled picture phones that are serviced by high flying psy-op type planes. Seems a lot cheaper and more effective to me. Imagine if everyone in North Korea suddenly had that technology. I doubt they would give it up, and probably depose anyone that tried, but I could be an optimist.[/quote]
The point is:
A) You are being told what to think by misrepresentation of the facts and manipulating of events
B) Ahmadinejad probably won the election
C) There are people much much worse off than the Iranians that we support the brutality against with our tax dollars, but you won’t see them paraded around on the Tell-E-Vision for your sympathy because that would not be good for business.
[/quote]
A. Yes, psy-ops. I wouldn’t be surprised if WE were the ones that originally announced the opposition had won.
B. I wouldn’t be surprised, but my hope is that this will be the spark to take control of Iran away from the religious fanatics.
C. To complain about the means to a good thing, or to dismiss it because we’re not helping some other guy is wrong. The point is that I hope some real change will come of this, and because of that change, we can change at home as well, and maybe start dropping cell phones on those ecact countries you mentioned.
afx114
June 18, 2009 @
4:28 PM
Arraya wrote:Nobody knows [quote=Arraya]Nobody knows what exactly happened and Ahmadinejad polled higher in the pre-election polls. All we get is a little slice of reality, through camera lenses, in the big city areas where Mousavi won.[/quote]
You have probably heard it asserted that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad principal strength is in rural areas, whereas Mir-Hossein Mousavi did relatively better in Iran’s cities. However, it is not clear that this is true. Moreover, in 2005, it is demonstrably false. On the contrary, Ahmadinejad did much better in urban areas in that election.
…
So it’s not exactly correct to say that Ahmadinejad’s strength was in rural areas. What we certainly can say, however, is that almost all of the improvements that Ahmadinejad made over his 2005 totals came in rural areas. What was once a weakness of his turned into another strength.
This means that at least one of two things must be true. Either the urban-rural dynamics of Iran have changed significantly over the last four years — at least insofar as it they affected perceptions of a candidate like Ahmadinejad. Or, alternatively, the election was rigged, and those who rigged it for some reason decided that rural votes were easier to steal.
In the first round of voting in 2005, the three conservative candidates for Iran’s presidency — Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Ali Larijani and Mohammad Baqer Qalibaf, got a collective 41 percent of the vote. Last Friday, ostensibly, Ahmadinejad got 63 percent of the vote. Where exactly did those extra votes come from?
[quote=Arraya]Ironically, with many of the signs in english.[/quote]
Most of the photos of signs that I’ve seen from the ground aren’t in English. You’re just seeing the signs in English because you’re probably getting your news from English news sources, which of course completely misses the point of what’s happening with Twitter/YouTube/Flickr — direct and instant feedback from the ground.
Of course all of the English news sources are going to show the English signs. Go search Twitter/YouTube/Flickr and you’ll find different results.
oxfordrick
June 18, 2009 @
4:46 PM
Latest news out of Latest news out of Tehran:
Supreme leader appoints Council of Financial Ayatollahs to regulate the mess the current Council of Financial Ayatollahs got them into.
Coronita
June 20, 2009 @
3:49 PM
….It is so on….I think ….It is so on….I think the genie is definitely out of the bag on this one…Social media isn’t going to easily be quelled.
Allan from Fallbrook
June 20, 2009 @
4:01 PM
flu wrote:….It is so [quote=flu]….It is so on….I think the genie is definitely out of the bag on this one…Social media isn’t going to easily be quelled.
[/quote]
FLU: Someone in the Iranian government is going to fuck up and drop the match in the gasoline, just watch.
I think the militia/IRGC are going to open fire on innocent civilians and then this whole thing breaks wide open.
partypup
June 20, 2009 @
4:18 PM
Does anyone else notice how Does anyone else notice how hypocritical it is for the U.S. media to hold these Iranian protesters up as heroes of democracy – when only 2 short months ago our media first ignored, then downplayed, then ridiculed tea party protesters? I find it curious that our government only respects and values protest when it occurs in other countries. LOL. I don’t know how it’s going to shake out in Iran. I’m sure the U.S. is hoping like hell that Ahmadinejad goes down in flames, thus frustrating the Eastern transition away from the dollar, but I have a hunch this will blow over. I do agree that Obama handled this well. The rest of the world neither wants nor appreciates the U.S.’ opinion anymore. Better to just stand back and adjust to our new role of observer.
I’ve just learned to believe nothing peddled by our media these days. The stench of propaganda is positively suffocating.
Arraya
June 20, 2009 @
5:18 PM
partypup wrote:Does anyone [quote=partypup]Does anyone else notice how hypocritical it is for the U.S. media to hold these Iranian protesters up as heroes of democracy – when only 2 short months ago our media first ignored, then downplayed, then ridiculed tea party protesters? I find it curious that our government only respects and values protest when it occurs in other countries. LOL. I don’t know how it’s going to shake out in Iran. I’m sure the U.S. is hoping like hell that Ahmadinejad goes down in flames, thus frustrating the Eastern transition away from the dollar, but I have a hunch this will blow over. I do agree that Obama handled this well. The rest of the world neither wants nor appreciates the U.S.’ opinion anymore. Better to just stand back and adjust to our new role of observer.
I’ve just learned to believe nothing peddled by our media these days. The stench of propaganda is positively suffocating.
[/quote]
Media controls the meme. The outrage of the Iranians is probably being manipulated to some extent or at least fueled. This is operation destabilize Iran.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/jun2009/pers-j19.shtml
In an editorial published Thursday entitled “Iran’s Nonrepublic,” the New York Times once again denounced the country’s presidential elections, declaring that “government authorities bulldozed the results” and that the victory of the incumbent, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, was “bogus.”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14018
“Change for the poor means food and jobs, not a relaxed dress code or mixed recreation… Politics in Iran is a lot more about class war than religion.”
Financial Times Editorial, June 15 2009
Introduction
There is hardly any election, in which the White House has a significant stake, where the electoral defeat of the pro-US candidate is not denounced as illegitimate by the entire political and mass media elite. In the most recent period, the White House and its camp followers cried foul following the free (and monitored) elections in Venezuela and Gaza, while joyously fabricating an ‘electoral success’ in Lebanon despite the fact that the Hezbollah-led coalition received over 53% of the vote.
The recently concluded, June 12, 2009 elections in Iran are a classic case: The incumbent nationalist-populist President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (MA) received 63.3% of the vote (or 24.5 million votes), while the leading Western-backed liberal opposition candidate Hossein Mousavi (HM) received 34.2% or (13.2 million votes).
Coronita
June 20, 2009 @
5:21 PM
partypup wrote:Does anyone [quote=partypup]Does anyone else notice how hypocritical it is for the U.S. media to hold these Iranian protesters up as heroes of democracy – when only 2 short months ago our media first ignored, then downplayed, then ridiculed tea party protesters? I find it curious that our government only respects and values protest when it occurs in other countries. LOL. I don’t know how it’s going to shake out in Iran. I’m sure the U.S. is hoping like hell that Ahmadinejad goes down in flames, thus frustrating the Eastern transition away from the dollar, but I have a hunch this will blow over. I do agree that Obama handled this well. The rest of the world neither wants nor appreciates the U.S.’ opinion anymore. Better to just stand back and adjust to our new role of observer.
I’ve just learned to believe nothing peddled by our media these days. The stench of propaganda is positively suffocating.
[/quote]
The u.s. media doesn’t care about the iranians. What they do care about is seeing Ahmadinejad get his ass kicked. I sort of am in that camp that I’d like to see Ahmadinejad, after running his mouth off so many times, out of a job in a few weeks. Drop ship arms I say…
Arraya
June 20, 2009 @
5:47 PM
Mish just did a post on Mish just did a post on congress wanting to tap oil reserves. That is telling and this could get interesting.
This must be Obama’s test that Joe Biden predicted 6 months ago. His timing was spot on.
mike92104
June 20, 2009 @
6:26 PM
I don’t think this is what I don’t think this is what Biden had in mind. North Korea on the other hand . . . .
Arraya
June 20, 2009 @
6:58 PM
We don’t know what he meant, We don’t know what he meant, but there has been a push for bombing Iran as well as funding for covert operations as early as last year. Couple that with it’s collaboration with the SCO which is working on a new currency regime and Ahmenidijad’s brazen Israel bashing. Basically, Iran is a high risk hot spot for conflict. I was expecting one this fall.
Arraya
June 20, 2009 @
7:13 PM
Here we go oil… Here we Here we go oil… Here we go!
clap… clap…
mike92104
June 20, 2009 @
7:14 PM
I feel like Biden was I feel like Biden was predicting some world bully testing Obama’s nerve. Not a contested election in Iran.
afx114
June 20, 2009 @
7:45 PM
partypup wrote:Does anyone [quote=partypup]Does anyone else notice how hypocritical it is for the U.S. media to hold these Iranian protesters up as heroes of democracy – when only 2 short months ago our media first ignored, then downplayed, then ridiculed tea party protesters?
[/quote]
If the US govt started beating and murdering teabaggers on the streets, then maybe you’d have an argument. How pathetic of you to even attempt to make that comparison. Just… pathetic.
Arraya
June 20, 2009 @
10:47 PM
delete delete
partypup
June 21, 2009 @
3:39 PM
afx114 wrote:partypup [quote=afx114][quote=partypup]Does anyone else notice how hypocritical it is for the U.S. media to hold these Iranian protesters up as heroes of democracy – when only 2 short months ago our media first ignored, then downplayed, then ridiculed tea party protesters?
[/quote]
If the US govt started beating and murdering teabaggers on the streets, then maybe you’d have an argument. How pathetic of you to even attempt to make that comparison. Just… pathetic.
[/quote]
Actually, what’s truly pathetic is the lengths to which you will apparently go to bury your head in the sand. Did you never study American history or take even a political science class that flirted with the basic tenets of the Constitution? Apparently not, or you wouldn’t have such trouble identifying the hypocrisy on clear display here.
I just want to be VERY clear about your position, afx114. Because – as chilling as it sounds – it appears you think it’s okay for government and media to discredit and flat-out ridicule protesters in a democracy, as long as they aren’t being physically intimidated. Seriously? Are you sure you want to go on record with at? Because it might surprise you to know that citizens in a democracy are guaranteed the right of dissent and protest, and those rights need to be vigorously defended whether or not citizens are being murdered or beaten. If you had a sincere appreciation for our Constitution, this wouldn’t come as a shock to you. But as an Obama supporter struggling with the cognitive dissonance of a “liberal” (LOL) president who defends Bush’s torture tactics, bombs Pakistani villages and continues to reduce our civil liberties, I suppose the Constitution is something you would rather forget about right now. Seriously, afx114, if your criteria for civil liberties so painfully low, then you’ll feel right at home in the new Obama Republic coming to a military tribunal near you.
Are you aware that this clown Obama has now decided to give the finger to the Constitution in a way that Bush had not even attempted: preventive, prolonged detention? Did you see “Minority Report”, afx114? Do yourself a favor and go rent it. Because this is your future. Obama is now making the case that EVEN if there is not evidence to convict or even bring charges against a “suspect”, that suspect can still be detained pre-emtively and indefinitely – without an indictment or a trial — if our government perceives that suspect as a “threat” who may commit crimes in the future. Do you get what this means? And yet, we glorify Iranians who take to the street to make their voices heard. What a crock of s***! How in the world do you think these demonstrations and protests would be greeted by our government if we can’t even handle a few hundred thousand PEACEFUL tax protesters and if our president thinks it’s okay to arrest and detain people who haven’t even committed crimes?? This is yet another example of the hypocrisy I’m talking about, and if you don’t see it then that’s truly pathetic. Do you need a felt tip marker to connect the dots?
Even the biggest Obamabot, Rachel Maddow, is starting to get seriously scared. Watch these videos and note how the hair on the back of her neck creeps up as she describes preventive detention. In my 43 years being propped in front of a television, I have never seen a news anchor/host look so profoundly disturbed and confused.
So, do we have to wait until our government beats and murders us before we gather the stones to stand up and point out the hypocrisy, afx114? Well, you may choose to wait that long, but the more prudent among us aren’t buying the b.s. and choose to speak up when we see our government extolling democracy in a foreign land while doing EVERYTHING in its power to crush it at home.
You know what? I can’t believe I’m even having this discussion with you. That’s what’s really, really pathetic. Your post is yet more disturbing evidence that Americans neither value nor deserve the freedoms they once fought for. And as a result, we will surely lose them. *Sigh*…
blahblahblah
June 21, 2009 @
5:46 PM
Are you aware that this clown Are you aware that this clown Obama has now decided to give the finger to the Constitution in a way that Bush had not even attempted: preventive, prolonged detention? Did you see “Minority Report”, afx114? Do yourself a favor and go rent it. Because this is your future. Obama is now making the case that EVEN if there is not evidence to convict or even bring charges against a “suspect”, that suspect can still be detained pre-emtively and indefinitely – without an indictment or a trial — if our government perceives that suspect as a “threat” who may commit crimes in the future.
Agreed, that’s a terrible idea. But don’t be so hard on Barry — he’s an allright guy. He just signs the stuff he’s told to. Just like the last guy did, and the guy before him and the guy before him. All the way back to the last guy that thought he ran the place in 1963. Torture, detention, etc… — Bush and Cheney and Obama and Biden don’t think this stuff up. It comes out of think tanks and is put on their desk and sold with a “Mr. President, we think you’ll agree this is the ONLY way to keep America safe”. And if they balk, well they can always be given the Lewinsky treatment.
This foolishness will only come to an end when the money runs out, and that may be a looooong time from now. Hunker down for a long winter.
partypup
June 22, 2009 @
12:48 AM
CONCHO wrote:
This [quote=CONCHO]
This foolishness will only come to an end when the money runs out, and that may be a looooong time from now. Hunker down for a long winter.[/quote]
Amen, Concho. An expired credit card is really the only thing that will stop these sons of b****s.
mike92104
June 16, 2009 @ 8:42 PM
I hope that that douchebag
I hope that that douchebag Ahmadinejad and the ayatollah get their asses beat.
SK in CV
June 16, 2009 @ 8:54 PM
That ship has
That ship has sailed.
Ahmadinejad was expected to get significantly less than 1/2 the votes, and an hour after the polls closed, it was reported that all the ballots had been counted (hand counted) and he received 2/3 of the votes. That was the coup d’état.
Now the question is whether it can or will be undone.
PadreBrian
June 16, 2009 @ 9:05 PM
The Ruhollah will squash any
The Ruhollah will squash any descent. He’s the real leader anyway.
urbanrealtor
June 16, 2009 @ 9:44 PM
As some of y’all know, I am a
As some of y’all know, I am a great big nerd.
I have been watching this a lot.
Thought this was pretty interesting.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/iran/story/70155.html
temeculaguy
June 17, 2009 @ 11:05 PM
urbanrealtor wrote:As some of
[quote=urbanrealtor]As some of y’all know, I am a great big nerd.
I have been watching this a lot.
Thought this was pretty interesting.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/iran/story/70155.html%5B/quote%5D
I read that article and couldn’t help but key in on one phrase, “iranian bloggers.” So if they have have bloggers, they have the internet, if they have the internet, then they have porn and they are going to want an iphone and HDTV, I don’t think they can control a people anymore once technology sets in.
sd_matt
June 18, 2009 @ 2:55 AM
I agree with this to the
I agree with this to the extent that the have-nots can communicate with the haves.
Allan from Fallbrook
June 16, 2009 @ 9:55 PM
Same old song, different
Same old song, different verse. There were reports of a potential revolution in earlier elections and it was rumored, after Khatami came to power, that his election “marked a turning point” in Iran and that we’d see fundamental changes take place.
Not so much. The true power in that country is held by the clerics and the IRGC (Iranian Revolutionary Guards Council) and I-Am-A-Dinner-Jacket is nothing more than a mouthpiece.
Whatever perceived “legitimacy” that has been lost due to a hijacked election will fade and it’ll be business as usual.
I think Obama has played his hand well by staying out of this situation and not agitating on behalf of Mousavi, which has robbed the Iranians of a convenient red herring (had he done so), but this will all blow over, just watch.
svelte
June 17, 2009 @ 3:54 PM
I agree with Alan.
I’ve
I agree with Alan.
I’ve watched Iran for over 20 years now. This sort of thing happens with every big election there.
Marches, demonstrations, beatings, killings for a few weeks.
Then everything gets back to Iran’s version of “normal”.
afx114
June 17, 2009 @ 9:52 PM
svelte/Allan: I’m no Iran
svelte/Allan: I’m no Iran expert, but I think you are failing to notice the Black Swan in all of this. No one could have predicted the role that technology would play. Sure, the powers that be knew they could control TV, print, and phone communications. Sure they figured they’d let the people blow off some steam for a while and then everything would go back to “normal.” But when’s the last time you saw a 69 year old dude — let alone the Grand Ayatolla of Iran — know what the fuck the internet is about? Or how to control it? Or how to prevent it from taking you down?
I think they’re all scared shitless, because no one really knows what to expect this time. Variables are unknown… equation not solvable. *blue screen of death*
.
.
.
NO CARRIER
Zeitgeist
June 17, 2009 @ 10:02 PM
I agree, the new forms of
I agree, the new forms of communication played a huge part in this and will continue to voice the need for reforms. That genie is out of the bottle and it is only a matter of time before there are more changes or will they go Tiananmen Square on the protesters? Time will tell.
patb
June 17, 2009 @ 10:59 PM
Zeitgeist wrote:I agree, the
[quote=Zeitgeist]I agree, the new forms of communication played a huge part in this and will continue to voice the need for reforms. That genie is out of the bottle and it is only a matter of time before there are more changes or will they go Tiananmen Square on the protesters? Time will tell. [/quote]
Doubt it the protests are too large.
Allan from Fallbrook
June 18, 2009 @ 2:59 PM
patb wrote:Zeitgeist wrote:I
[quote=patb][quote=Zeitgeist]I agree, the new forms of communication played a huge part in this and will continue to voice the need for reforms. That genie is out of the bottle and it is only a matter of time before there are more changes or will they go Tiananmen Square on the protesters? Time will tell. [/quote]
Doubt it the protests are too large.[/quote]
Unfortunately, the “real” crackdown by government forces has yet to occur. We’ve seen fairly minor suppression, but the Basij militia and the IRGC have yet to really weigh in. If/when that happens, it’s probably Game Over for the protests and protestors.
mike92104
June 18, 2009 @ 3:41 PM
I think this has really put
I think this has really put the powers that be in a pickle. Do they begin beating people in the streets knowing they can no longer control the media and the images WILL get out, do they admit they stole an election and get people even more upset, or do they just quietly slip out the back and become a religious rather than political leader once again?
You have to hand it to the Iranians for there use of twitter and such to get around the govt. I think we could learn from that. I also thought it was interesting to hear about requests for all the twitter users in the world to reset their home town to Tehran to try to confuse the government who’s using the info to crack down on protesters. Seems like a real opportunity to get the world involved in a people led, peaceful overthrow of their leaders.
Interesting times.
afx114
June 18, 2009 @ 3:54 PM
Allan from Fallbrook
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Unfortunately, the “real” crackdown by government forces has yet to occur. We’ve seen fairly minor suppression, but the Basij militia and the IRGC have yet to really weigh in.[/quote]
Latest word is that now the Basij are fearful for their lives and wearing masks because people have been identifying and targeting them from photos on the internets.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/06/exposing-basij.html
svelte
June 18, 2009 @ 11:09 AM
afx114 wrote:svelte/Allan:
[quote=afx114]svelte/Allan: I’m no Iran expert, but I think you are failing to notice the Black Swan in all of this. [/quote]
It’s certainly possible you’re right and I’m no Iran expert either…
It will be interesting to watch, whatever happens.
Coronita
June 18, 2009 @ 12:00 PM
Now all we need to do is just
Now all we need to do is just slip a few arms under the table to opposition leaders and things get very interesting….
Oh wait, never mind…Deja Vu.
pencilneck
June 18, 2009 @ 1:00 PM
I don’t have any real opinion
I don’t have any real opinion one way or the other on Iran. But a lot of very reputable sources have said that the alleged instability in Pakistan has been very overstated of late, and the experts of the region didn’t seem to understand why.
So talk about deja vu.
Arraya
June 18, 2009 @ 3:56 PM
Now for the unpopular
Now for the unpopular view;)
Whether we anybody likes it or not Ahmadinejad is a well liked politician in Iran. Obviously, DC hates Iran because they like to do what they want. I know for most the is incomprehensible. Still, the media’s portrayal of this event is completely and utterly disingenuous and is portrayed to create an emotional effect on us.
It’s 75% propaganda. As soon as the election results were in the MSM jumped on the fraud bandwagon fast and furious. No critical look at the situation at all. Nobody knows what exactly happened and Ahmadinejad polled higher in the pre-election polls. All we get is a little slice of reality, through camera lenses, in the big city areas where Mousavi won. Ironically, with many of the signs in english. Even evidence of internet intervention by the west has been uncovered with twitter from Israel and San Francisco.
I’m not for or against anybody in Iran. However, I am against propaganda and people telling me how to think. The West’s hypocrisy in the ME knows no bounds as evident by our support of much more despicable regimes in the area. Washington and Israel don’t care about peace and democracy in the area, all they are about is submission. Enjoy the rest of the psy-ops. DC is hoping they get brutal for your viewing pleasure.
Arraya
June 18, 2009 @ 4:08 PM
Signs…: Now who did they
[img_assist|nid=11335|title=Signs…|desc=Now who did they write these signs for? I wonder if they have Diebold in Iran?|link=node|align=left|width=842|height=500]
mike92104
June 18, 2009 @ 4:11 PM
I’m all for psy-ops. Maybe
I’m all for psy-ops. Maybe this is the kind of thing we should be doing. Instead of dropping bombs, we should drop in Twitter, Facebook, and Gmail enabled picture phones that are serviced by high flying psy-op type planes. Seems a lot cheaper and more effective to me. Imagine if everyone in North Korea suddenly had that technology. I doubt they would give it up, and probably depose anyone that tried, but I could be an optimist.
Arraya
June 18, 2009 @ 4:32 PM
mike92104 wrote:I’m all for
[quote=mike92104]I’m all for psy-ops. Maybe this is the kind of thing we should be doing. Instead of dropping bombs, we should drop in Twitter, Facebook, and Gmail enabled picture phones that are serviced by high flying psy-op type planes. Seems a lot cheaper and more effective to me. Imagine if everyone in North Korea suddenly had that technology. I doubt they would give it up, and probably depose anyone that tried, but I could be an optimist.[/quote]
The point is:
A) You are being told what to think by misrepresentation of the facts and manipulating of events
B) Ahmadinejad probably won the election
C) There are people much much worse off than the Iranians that we support the brutality against with our tax dollars, but you won’t see them paraded around on the Tell-E-Vision for your sympathy because that would not be good for business.
mike92104
June 18, 2009 @ 4:52 PM
Arraya wrote:mike92104
[quote=Arraya][quote=mike92104]I’m all for psy-ops. Maybe this is the kind of thing we should be doing. Instead of dropping bombs, we should drop in Twitter, Facebook, and Gmail enabled picture phones that are serviced by high flying psy-op type planes. Seems a lot cheaper and more effective to me. Imagine if everyone in North Korea suddenly had that technology. I doubt they would give it up, and probably depose anyone that tried, but I could be an optimist.[/quote]
The point is:
A) You are being told what to think by misrepresentation of the facts and manipulating of events
B) Ahmadinejad probably won the election
C) There are people much much worse off than the Iranians that we support the brutality against with our tax dollars, but you won’t see them paraded around on the Tell-E-Vision for your sympathy because that would not be good for business.
[/quote]
A. Yes, psy-ops. I wouldn’t be surprised if WE were the ones that originally announced the opposition had won.
B. I wouldn’t be surprised, but my hope is that this will be the spark to take control of Iran away from the religious fanatics.
C. To complain about the means to a good thing, or to dismiss it because we’re not helping some other guy is wrong. The point is that I hope some real change will come of this, and because of that change, we can change at home as well, and maybe start dropping cell phones on those ecact countries you mentioned.
afx114
June 18, 2009 @ 4:28 PM
Arraya wrote:Nobody knows
[quote=Arraya]Nobody knows what exactly happened and Ahmadinejad polled higher in the pre-election polls. All we get is a little slice of reality, through camera lenses, in the big city areas where Mousavi won.[/quote]
Some great analysis and pretty graphs @ http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/06/ahmadinejads-rural-votes.html
And another great analysis @ http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/06/if-he-did-it.html
[quote=Arraya]Ironically, with many of the signs in english.[/quote]
Most of the photos of signs that I’ve seen from the ground aren’t in English. You’re just seeing the signs in English because you’re probably getting your news from English news sources, which of course completely misses the point of what’s happening with Twitter/YouTube/Flickr — direct and instant feedback from the ground.
Of course all of the English news sources are going to show the English signs. Go search Twitter/YouTube/Flickr and you’ll find different results.
oxfordrick
June 18, 2009 @ 4:46 PM
Latest news out of
Latest news out of Tehran:
Supreme leader appoints Council of Financial Ayatollahs to regulate the mess the current Council of Financial Ayatollahs got them into.
Coronita
June 20, 2009 @ 3:49 PM
….It is so on….I think
….It is so on….I think the genie is definitely out of the bag on this one…Social media isn’t going to easily be quelled.
Allan from Fallbrook
June 20, 2009 @ 4:01 PM
flu wrote:….It is so
[quote=flu]….It is so on….I think the genie is definitely out of the bag on this one…Social media isn’t going to easily be quelled.
[/quote]
FLU: Someone in the Iranian government is going to fuck up and drop the match in the gasoline, just watch.
I think the militia/IRGC are going to open fire on innocent civilians and then this whole thing breaks wide open.
partypup
June 20, 2009 @ 4:18 PM
Does anyone else notice how
Does anyone else notice how hypocritical it is for the U.S. media to hold these Iranian protesters up as heroes of democracy – when only 2 short months ago our media first ignored, then downplayed, then ridiculed tea party protesters? I find it curious that our government only respects and values protest when it occurs in other countries. LOL. I don’t know how it’s going to shake out in Iran. I’m sure the U.S. is hoping like hell that Ahmadinejad goes down in flames, thus frustrating the Eastern transition away from the dollar, but I have a hunch this will blow over. I do agree that Obama handled this well. The rest of the world neither wants nor appreciates the U.S.’ opinion anymore. Better to just stand back and adjust to our new role of observer.
I’ve just learned to believe nothing peddled by our media these days. The stench of propaganda is positively suffocating.
Arraya
June 20, 2009 @ 5:18 PM
partypup wrote:Does anyone
[quote=partypup]Does anyone else notice how hypocritical it is for the U.S. media to hold these Iranian protesters up as heroes of democracy – when only 2 short months ago our media first ignored, then downplayed, then ridiculed tea party protesters? I find it curious that our government only respects and values protest when it occurs in other countries. LOL. I don’t know how it’s going to shake out in Iran. I’m sure the U.S. is hoping like hell that Ahmadinejad goes down in flames, thus frustrating the Eastern transition away from the dollar, but I have a hunch this will blow over. I do agree that Obama handled this well. The rest of the world neither wants nor appreciates the U.S.’ opinion anymore. Better to just stand back and adjust to our new role of observer.
I’ve just learned to believe nothing peddled by our media these days. The stench of propaganda is positively suffocating.
[/quote]
Media controls the meme. The outrage of the Iranians is probably being manipulated to some extent or at least fueled. This is operation destabilize Iran.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/jun2009/pers-j19.shtml
In an editorial published Thursday entitled “Iran’s Nonrepublic,” the New York Times once again denounced the country’s presidential elections, declaring that “government authorities bulldozed the results” and that the victory of the incumbent, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, was “bogus.”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14018
“Change for the poor means food and jobs, not a relaxed dress code or mixed recreation… Politics in Iran is a lot more about class war than religion.”
Financial Times Editorial, June 15 2009
Introduction
There is hardly any election, in which the White House has a significant stake, where the electoral defeat of the pro-US candidate is not denounced as illegitimate by the entire political and mass media elite. In the most recent period, the White House and its camp followers cried foul following the free (and monitored) elections in Venezuela and Gaza, while joyously fabricating an ‘electoral success’ in Lebanon despite the fact that the Hezbollah-led coalition received over 53% of the vote.
The recently concluded, June 12, 2009 elections in Iran are a classic case: The incumbent nationalist-populist President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (MA) received 63.3% of the vote (or 24.5 million votes), while the leading Western-backed liberal opposition candidate Hossein Mousavi (HM) received 34.2% or (13.2 million votes).
Coronita
June 20, 2009 @ 5:21 PM
partypup wrote:Does anyone
[quote=partypup]Does anyone else notice how hypocritical it is for the U.S. media to hold these Iranian protesters up as heroes of democracy – when only 2 short months ago our media first ignored, then downplayed, then ridiculed tea party protesters? I find it curious that our government only respects and values protest when it occurs in other countries. LOL. I don’t know how it’s going to shake out in Iran. I’m sure the U.S. is hoping like hell that Ahmadinejad goes down in flames, thus frustrating the Eastern transition away from the dollar, but I have a hunch this will blow over. I do agree that Obama handled this well. The rest of the world neither wants nor appreciates the U.S.’ opinion anymore. Better to just stand back and adjust to our new role of observer.
I’ve just learned to believe nothing peddled by our media these days. The stench of propaganda is positively suffocating.
[/quote]
The u.s. media doesn’t care about the iranians. What they do care about is seeing Ahmadinejad get his ass kicked. I sort of am in that camp that I’d like to see Ahmadinejad, after running his mouth off so many times, out of a job in a few weeks. Drop ship arms I say…
Arraya
June 20, 2009 @ 5:47 PM
Mish just did a post on
Mish just did a post on congress wanting to tap oil reserves. That is telling and this could get interesting.
This must be Obama’s test that Joe Biden predicted 6 months ago. His timing was spot on.
mike92104
June 20, 2009 @ 6:26 PM
I don’t think this is what
I don’t think this is what Biden had in mind. North Korea on the other hand . . . .
Arraya
June 20, 2009 @ 6:58 PM
We don’t know what he meant,
We don’t know what he meant, but there has been a push for bombing Iran as well as funding for covert operations as early as last year. Couple that with it’s collaboration with the SCO which is working on a new currency regime and Ahmenidijad’s brazen Israel bashing. Basically, Iran is a high risk hot spot for conflict. I was expecting one this fall.
Arraya
June 20, 2009 @ 7:13 PM
Here we go oil… Here we
Here we go oil… Here we go!
clap… clap…
mike92104
June 20, 2009 @ 7:14 PM
I feel like Biden was
I feel like Biden was predicting some world bully testing Obama’s nerve. Not a contested election in Iran.
afx114
June 20, 2009 @ 7:45 PM
partypup wrote:Does anyone
[quote=partypup]Does anyone else notice how hypocritical it is for the U.S. media to hold these Iranian protesters up as heroes of democracy – when only 2 short months ago our media first ignored, then downplayed, then ridiculed tea party protesters?
[/quote]
If the US govt started beating and murdering teabaggers on the streets, then maybe you’d have an argument. How pathetic of you to even attempt to make that comparison. Just… pathetic.
Arraya
June 20, 2009 @ 10:47 PM
delete
delete
partypup
June 21, 2009 @ 3:39 PM
afx114 wrote:partypup
[quote=afx114][quote=partypup]Does anyone else notice how hypocritical it is for the U.S. media to hold these Iranian protesters up as heroes of democracy – when only 2 short months ago our media first ignored, then downplayed, then ridiculed tea party protesters?
[/quote]
If the US govt started beating and murdering teabaggers on the streets, then maybe you’d have an argument. How pathetic of you to even attempt to make that comparison. Just… pathetic.
[/quote]
Actually, what’s truly pathetic is the lengths to which you will apparently go to bury your head in the sand. Did you never study American history or take even a political science class that flirted with the basic tenets of the Constitution? Apparently not, or you wouldn’t have such trouble identifying the hypocrisy on clear display here.
I just want to be VERY clear about your position, afx114. Because – as chilling as it sounds – it appears you think it’s okay for government and media to discredit and flat-out ridicule protesters in a democracy, as long as they aren’t being physically intimidated. Seriously? Are you sure you want to go on record with at? Because it might surprise you to know that citizens in a democracy are guaranteed the right of dissent and protest, and those rights need to be vigorously defended whether or not citizens are being murdered or beaten. If you had a sincere appreciation for our Constitution, this wouldn’t come as a shock to you. But as an Obama supporter struggling with the cognitive dissonance of a “liberal” (LOL) president who defends Bush’s torture tactics, bombs Pakistani villages and continues to reduce our civil liberties, I suppose the Constitution is something you would rather forget about right now. Seriously, afx114, if your criteria for civil liberties so painfully low, then you’ll feel right at home in the new Obama Republic coming to a military tribunal near you.
Are you aware that this clown Obama has now decided to give the finger to the Constitution in a way that Bush had not even attempted: preventive, prolonged detention? Did you see “Minority Report”, afx114? Do yourself a favor and go rent it. Because this is your future. Obama is now making the case that EVEN if there is not evidence to convict or even bring charges against a “suspect”, that suspect can still be detained pre-emtively and indefinitely – without an indictment or a trial — if our government perceives that suspect as a “threat” who may commit crimes in the future. Do you get what this means? And yet, we glorify Iranians who take to the street to make their voices heard. What a crock of s***! How in the world do you think these demonstrations and protests would be greeted by our government if we can’t even handle a few hundred thousand PEACEFUL tax protesters and if our president thinks it’s okay to arrest and detain people who haven’t even committed crimes?? This is yet another example of the hypocrisy I’m talking about, and if you don’t see it then that’s truly pathetic. Do you need a felt tip marker to connect the dots?
Even the biggest Obamabot, Rachel Maddow, is starting to get seriously scared. Watch these videos and note how the hair on the back of her neck creeps up as she describes preventive detention. In my 43 years being propped in front of a television, I have never seen a news anchor/host look so profoundly disturbed and confused.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uuWVHT1WUY&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GttwgYG0OhY
So, do we have to wait until our government beats and murders us before we gather the stones to stand up and point out the hypocrisy, afx114? Well, you may choose to wait that long, but the more prudent among us aren’t buying the b.s. and choose to speak up when we see our government extolling democracy in a foreign land while doing EVERYTHING in its power to crush it at home.
You know what? I can’t believe I’m even having this discussion with you. That’s what’s really, really pathetic. Your post is yet more disturbing evidence that Americans neither value nor deserve the freedoms they once fought for. And as a result, we will surely lose them. *Sigh*…
blahblahblah
June 21, 2009 @ 5:46 PM
Are you aware that this clown
Are you aware that this clown Obama has now decided to give the finger to the Constitution in a way that Bush had not even attempted: preventive, prolonged detention? Did you see “Minority Report”, afx114? Do yourself a favor and go rent it. Because this is your future. Obama is now making the case that EVEN if there is not evidence to convict or even bring charges against a “suspect”, that suspect can still be detained pre-emtively and indefinitely – without an indictment or a trial — if our government perceives that suspect as a “threat” who may commit crimes in the future.
Agreed, that’s a terrible idea. But don’t be so hard on Barry — he’s an allright guy. He just signs the stuff he’s told to. Just like the last guy did, and the guy before him and the guy before him. All the way back to the last guy that thought he ran the place in 1963. Torture, detention, etc… — Bush and Cheney and Obama and Biden don’t think this stuff up. It comes out of think tanks and is put on their desk and sold with a “Mr. President, we think you’ll agree this is the ONLY way to keep America safe”. And if they balk, well they can always be given the Lewinsky treatment.
This foolishness will only come to an end when the money runs out, and that may be a looooong time from now. Hunker down for a long winter.
partypup
June 22, 2009 @ 12:48 AM
CONCHO wrote:
This
[quote=CONCHO]
This foolishness will only come to an end when the money runs out, and that may be a looooong time from now. Hunker down for a long winter.[/quote]
Amen, Concho. An expired credit card is really the only thing that will stop these sons of b****s.