[edna_mode]

As much as don’t like investing in precious metals I’m now wondering if gold or silver bouillon may be a good tax free hedge.

Tax-free? Would you kindly share your reference, preferably from the IRS and this year, supporting this?

Hmmm. Here is a link to the irs.gov document Section 408 regarding what is kosher to hold in an IRA:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/irc408.pdf

408(m) is the interesting part — it warns that investment using IRA funds into “collectibles” will be considered a disbursement, but makes a specific exemption for precious metal coins and bullion of a minimum “fineness”, *provided that bullion is in the physical possession of the trustee*. I assume that the “trustee” here would be the same as the “custodian”, and good luck to you finding a bank or broker willing to hold physical gold for you. Nor do I think businesses who do hold physical gold, like Kitco, be willing to deal with retirement account regulations.

And if you are considering investment in shiny metal outside a retirement account — I’m under the impression that these are considered “collectibles” in this context, hence subject to 28% long-term (>1yr) capital gains rate.

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p17/ch16.html
http://www.bankrate.com/brm/itax/Edit/tips/Stories/collect_taxrelief.asp

Precious Metals Investment Tax Rates

But hey, I’d love to be wrong.

[edna_mode]

As much as don’t like investing in precious metals I’m now wondering if gold or silver bouillon may be a good tax free hedge.

Tax-free? Would you kindly share your reference, preferably from the IRS and this year, supporting this?

Hmmm. Here is a link to the irs.gov document Section 408 regarding what is kosher to hold in an IRA:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/irc408.pdf

408(m) is the interesting part — it warns that investment using IRA funds into “collectibles” will be considered a disbursement, but makes a specific exemption for precious metal coins and bullion of a minimum “fineness”, *provided that bullion is in the physical possession of the trustee*. I assume that the “trustee” here would be the same as the “custodian”, and good luck to you finding a bank or broker willing to hold physical gold for you. Nor do I think businesses who do hold physical gold, like Kitco, be willing to deal with retirement account regulations.

And if you are considering investment in shiny metal outside a retirement account — I’m under the impression that these are considered “collectibles” in this context, hence subject to 28% long-term (>1yr) capital gains rate.

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p17/ch16.html
http://www.bankrate.com/brm/itax/Edit/tips/Stories/collect_taxrelief.asp

Precious Metals Investment Tax Rates

But hey, I’d love to be wrong.

[edna_mode]

As much as don’t like investing in precious metals I’m now wondering if gold or silver bouillon may be a good tax free hedge.

Tax-free? Would you kindly share your reference, preferably from the IRS and this year, supporting this?

Hmmm. Here is a link to the irs.gov document Section 408 regarding what is kosher to hold in an IRA:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/irc408.pdf

408(m) is the interesting part — it warns that investment using IRA funds into “collectibles” will be considered a disbursement, but makes a specific exemption for precious metal coins and bullion of a minimum “fineness”, *provided that bullion is in the physical possession of the trustee*. I assume that the “trustee” here would be the same as the “custodian”, and good luck to you finding a bank or broker willing to hold physical gold for you. Nor do I think businesses who do hold physical gold, like Kitco, be willing to deal with retirement account regulations.

And if you are considering investment in shiny metal outside a retirement account — I’m under the impression that these are considered “collectibles” in this context, hence subject to 28% long-term (>1yr) capital gains rate.

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p17/ch16.html
http://www.bankrate.com/brm/itax/Edit/tips/Stories/collect_taxrelief.asp

Precious Metals Investment Tax Rates

But hey, I’d love to be wrong.

[edna_mode]

As much as don’t like investing in precious metals I’m now wondering if gold or silver bouillon may be a good tax free hedge.

Tax-free? Would you kindly share your reference, preferably from the IRS and this year, supporting this?

Hmmm. Here is a link to the irs.gov document Section 408 regarding what is kosher to hold in an IRA:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/irc408.pdf

408(m) is the interesting part — it warns that investment using IRA funds into “collectibles” will be considered a disbursement, but makes a specific exemption for precious metal coins and bullion of a minimum “fineness”, *provided that bullion is in the physical possession of the trustee*. I assume that the “trustee” here would be the same as the “custodian”, and good luck to you finding a bank or broker willing to hold physical gold for you. Nor do I think businesses who do hold physical gold, like Kitco, be willing to deal with retirement account regulations.

And if you are considering investment in shiny metal outside a retirement account — I’m under the impression that these are considered “collectibles” in this context, hence subject to 28% long-term (>1yr) capital gains rate.

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p17/ch16.html
http://www.bankrate.com/brm/itax/Edit/tips/Stories/collect_taxrelief.asp

Precious Metals Investment Tax Rates

But hey, I’d love to be wrong.

[edna_mode]

As much as don’t like investing in precious metals I’m now wondering if gold or silver bouillon may be a good tax free hedge.

Tax-free? Would you kindly share your reference, preferably from the IRS and this year, supporting this?

Hmmm. Here is a link to the irs.gov document Section 408 regarding what is kosher to hold in an IRA:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/irc408.pdf

408(m) is the interesting part — it warns that investment using IRA funds into “collectibles” will be considered a disbursement, but makes a specific exemption for precious metal coins and bullion of a minimum “fineness”, *provided that bullion is in the physical possession of the trustee*. I assume that the “trustee” here would be the same as the “custodian”, and good luck to you finding a bank or broker willing to hold physical gold for you. Nor do I think businesses who do hold physical gold, like Kitco, be willing to deal with retirement account regulations.

And if you are considering investment in shiny metal outside a retirement account — I’m under the impression that these are considered “collectibles” in this context, hence subject to 28% long-term (>1yr) capital gains rate.

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p17/ch16.html
http://www.bankrate.com/brm/itax/Edit/tips/Stories/collect_taxrelief.asp

Precious Metals Investment Tax Rates

But hey, I’d love to be wrong.

[edna_mode]

Soooo…does anyone else here think that retirement accounts (especially the Roth), which have very well documented custodian agreements, i.e. all transactions are reported to the IRS — would represent an convenient logistical opportunity to tax upon disbursement?

Yes, you paid taxes upon converting to the Roth…on the promise (cross my heart!) that the government would NOT tax it again upon disbursement. Decades from now. Under a different administration. And a different Congress. That’s about like expecting, I dunno, Social Security to pay for me 30 years from now?

I’m considering that there are substantial voting demographics who are not incentivized to contribute (high tax bracket, pension-plan workers) who might be swayed by a demogogue railing against the “tax haven” that Roths represent.

After all, I got taxed when I earned my income…and then taxed again when I spend it (on most things)…there’s certainly precedent for tax-favored treatments to change over time (cc and student interest used to be tax deductible). I mitigated this taxation risk by not keeping all my retirement funds in a Roth, but some as a “regular” IRA or 401k, and some to not put in at all.

My overall point is that in this investing environment, an enormous hidden risk is not knowing what regulatory, taxation and judicial (think of whether or not courts will uphold the right of MERS to foreclose — what does that mean for the value of holding a mortgage-backed security in one’s portfolio if it’s not liquid?) responses are likely to be for any given form of investment. And those can easily wipe out any comparative advantage of any particular class of asset.

[edna_mode]

Soooo…does anyone else here think that retirement accounts (especially the Roth), which have very well documented custodian agreements, i.e. all transactions are reported to the IRS — would represent an convenient logistical opportunity to tax upon disbursement?

Yes, you paid taxes upon converting to the Roth…on the promise (cross my heart!) that the government would NOT tax it again upon disbursement. Decades from now. Under a different administration. And a different Congress. That’s about like expecting, I dunno, Social Security to pay for me 30 years from now?

I’m considering that there are substantial voting demographics who are not incentivized to contribute (high tax bracket, pension-plan workers) who might be swayed by a demogogue railing against the “tax haven” that Roths represent.

After all, I got taxed when I earned my income…and then taxed again when I spend it (on most things)…there’s certainly precedent for tax-favored treatments to change over time (cc and student interest used to be tax deductible). I mitigated this taxation risk by not keeping all my retirement funds in a Roth, but some as a “regular” IRA or 401k, and some to not put in at all.

My overall point is that in this investing environment, an enormous hidden risk is not knowing what regulatory, taxation and judicial (think of whether or not courts will uphold the right of MERS to foreclose — what does that mean for the value of holding a mortgage-backed security in one’s portfolio if it’s not liquid?) responses are likely to be for any given form of investment. And those can easily wipe out any comparative advantage of any particular class of asset.

[edna_mode]

Soooo…does anyone else here think that retirement accounts (especially the Roth), which have very well documented custodian agreements, i.e. all transactions are reported to the IRS — would represent an convenient logistical opportunity to tax upon disbursement?

Yes, you paid taxes upon converting to the Roth…on the promise (cross my heart!) that the government would NOT tax it again upon disbursement. Decades from now. Under a different administration. And a different Congress. That’s about like expecting, I dunno, Social Security to pay for me 30 years from now?

I’m considering that there are substantial voting demographics who are not incentivized to contribute (high tax bracket, pension-plan workers) who might be swayed by a demogogue railing against the “tax haven” that Roths represent.

After all, I got taxed when I earned my income…and then taxed again when I spend it (on most things)…there’s certainly precedent for tax-favored treatments to change over time (cc and student interest used to be tax deductible). I mitigated this taxation risk by not keeping all my retirement funds in a Roth, but some as a “regular” IRA or 401k, and some to not put in at all.

My overall point is that in this investing environment, an enormous hidden risk is not knowing what regulatory, taxation and judicial (think of whether or not courts will uphold the right of MERS to foreclose — what does that mean for the value of holding a mortgage-backed security in one’s portfolio if it’s not liquid?) responses are likely to be for any given form of investment. And those can easily wipe out any comparative advantage of any particular class of asset.

[edna_mode]

Soooo…does anyone else here think that retirement accounts (especially the Roth), which have very well documented custodian agreements, i.e. all transactions are reported to the IRS — would represent an convenient logistical opportunity to tax upon disbursement?

Yes, you paid taxes upon converting to the Roth…on the promise (cross my heart!) that the government would NOT tax it again upon disbursement. Decades from now. Under a different administration. And a different Congress. That’s about like expecting, I dunno, Social Security to pay for me 30 years from now?

I’m considering that there are substantial voting demographics who are not incentivized to contribute (high tax bracket, pension-plan workers) who might be swayed by a demogogue railing against the “tax haven” that Roths represent.

After all, I got taxed when I earned my income…and then taxed again when I spend it (on most things)…there’s certainly precedent for tax-favored treatments to change over time (cc and student interest used to be tax deductible). I mitigated this taxation risk by not keeping all my retirement funds in a Roth, but some as a “regular” IRA or 401k, and some to not put in at all.

My overall point is that in this investing environment, an enormous hidden risk is not knowing what regulatory, taxation and judicial (think of whether or not courts will uphold the right of MERS to foreclose — what does that mean for the value of holding a mortgage-backed security in one’s portfolio if it’s not liquid?) responses are likely to be for any given form of investment. And those can easily wipe out any comparative advantage of any particular class of asset.

[edna_mode]

Soooo…does anyone else here think that retirement accounts (especially the Roth), which have very well documented custodian agreements, i.e. all transactions are reported to the IRS — would represent an convenient logistical opportunity to tax upon disbursement?

Yes, you paid taxes upon converting to the Roth…on the promise (cross my heart!) that the government would NOT tax it again upon disbursement. Decades from now. Under a different administration. And a different Congress. That’s about like expecting, I dunno, Social Security to pay for me 30 years from now?

I’m considering that there are substantial voting demographics who are not incentivized to contribute (high tax bracket, pension-plan workers) who might be swayed by a demogogue railing against the “tax haven” that Roths represent.

After all, I got taxed when I earned my income…and then taxed again when I spend it (on most things)…there’s certainly precedent for tax-favored treatments to change over time (cc and student interest used to be tax deductible). I mitigated this taxation risk by not keeping all my retirement funds in a Roth, but some as a “regular” IRA or 401k, and some to not put in at all.

My overall point is that in this investing environment, an enormous hidden risk is not knowing what regulatory, taxation and judicial (think of whether or not courts will uphold the right of MERS to foreclose — what does that mean for the value of holding a mortgage-backed security in one’s portfolio if it’s not liquid?) responses are likely to be for any given form of investment. And those can easily wipe out any comparative advantage of any particular class of asset.

[edna_mode]

go to Citibank.ca — this is the online interface for Canadian banking under the Citibank umbrella.

when you call to set up an account, there’s a process by which you can get verified by a local Citibank branch for your ID to set up a chequing account — at least for personal chequing. For business, I don’t know. Warning: it’s a huge hassle, and it will take quite a bit of time for the paperwork to go through.

[edna_mode]

go to Citibank.ca — this is the online interface for Canadian banking under the Citibank umbrella.

when you call to set up an account, there’s a process by which you can get verified by a local Citibank branch for your ID to set up a chequing account — at least for personal chequing. For business, I don’t know. Warning: it’s a huge hassle, and it will take quite a bit of time for the paperwork to go through.

[edna_mode]

go to Citibank.ca — this is the online interface for Canadian banking under the Citibank umbrella.

when you call to set up an account, there’s a process by which you can get verified by a local Citibank branch for your ID to set up a chequing account — at least for personal chequing. For business, I don’t know. Warning: it’s a huge hassle, and it will take quite a bit of time for the paperwork to go through.

[edna_mode]

go to Citibank.ca — this is the online interface for Canadian banking under the Citibank umbrella.

when you call to set up an account, there’s a process by which you can get verified by a local Citibank branch for your ID to set up a chequing account — at least for personal chequing. For business, I don’t know. Warning: it’s a huge hassle, and it will take quite a bit of time for the paperwork to go through.

[edna_mode]

go to Citibank.ca — this is the online interface for Canadian banking under the Citibank umbrella.

when you call to set up an account, there’s a process by which you can get verified by a local Citibank branch for your ID to set up a chequing account — at least for personal chequing. For business, I don’t know. Warning: it’s a huge hassle, and it will take quite a bit of time for the paperwork to go through.

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