UT opinion article on SB 1021 and Prop 30

[CA renter]

AN, in many of these schools there is no “security,” especially at the elementary and middle school levels.

Back when I was in junior high (as a student), our upper-middle-class neighborhood had “aged out” of the local school system, so they bussed about 75% of our students from downtown L.A. There were major fights almost every single day, and I’m talking about very brutal fights.

The way the students would handle it is to shout “fight…fight…fight,” and all of the (downtown) students would rush to the scene and form concentric circles of students around the fights, linking arms so that the administrators couldn’t get to the fight, often numbering over 200+ students. There is no “calling security” in this type of setting. The fight plays out, usually until someone is knocked unconscious.

I remember my first day at that school after attending a very high-achieving, religious private school where we had absolutely no behavioral problems because those kids were expelled the first time they caused problems. Anyway, I walked into my first classroom, a history class, and the students were running and jumping around throwing wads of paper and blowing spit-wads at the teacher and each other. The poor teacher was standing at the front of the classroom yelling for everyone to sit down and settle down. Her hair was a mess, and she looked like she was ready to break down. I’ll never forget that day because it really woke me up and showed me a part of society that I was totally not used to.

While you might think that you can handle these students AND teach them in such a way that they will all pass standardized tests, I think you are being painfully naive. That’s not a slam against you, it’s just that I’ve seen it, both as a student and a teacher, and I’ve also heard many of the stories from teacher friends who’ve had to deal with these kinds of students.

When politicians talk about “failing schools,” these are the schools they are talking about. Again, the failures have NOTHING AT ALL to do with teachers’ unions or tenure. The problems are very complex and the subject is very politically dangerous for any politician to broach if they are willing to be honest. This is why it’s so easy to blame teachers and unions; they are the easy (and politically palatable) targets in a world where complex problems require complex solutions and an HONEST assessment of the problems, even when there will be severe sociopolitical ramifications. Throw in the fact that there is a long line of wealthy capitalists (many of whom control the mainstream media) just drooling over the possible demise of the unions so that they can sink their teeth into all of those freed-up public funds.

[CA renter]

One more thing about “calling security,” is that even if the kid is sent home or to the principal/dean’s office that day, she will be back the next day or the one after that emboldened and just as bad as ever. As far as that student is concerned, the worst that can happen is she gets a couple of days off of school. Many of these students just LOVE a day off of school. As far as they’re concerned, they’ve “won,” and they will have no motivation to improve their behavior.

And let’s just assume you keep calling security every day to get these kids out of your classroom. Do you want to know what the administrators will say? They’ll tell you that you are clearly not capable of doing your job if you have to keep calling security and suspending your students all the time.

[CA renter]

And why do they need bus monitors?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hDZHv2bn0w

Think you could drive a bus with this going on?

FWIW, I think that bus drivers have one of the toughest jobs in a school district.

[an]

Guess what, I went to a HS that had plenty of fights too. As soon as the fight broke out, security came running. It usually ends in <3-5 minutes. Those students then get suspended. So, yes, I've witness what bad students too. Which is why I said there should be segregation of those type of students apart from those who wants to learn.

As I've stated, I'm not a professional teacher and I won't kid myself into thinking I can personally handle the violence. But that's why I said I'll call security instead of trying to handle it myself. As an adult, you should know what you can and can't handle. If you can't handle these tough students, then move to a school where this won't be a problem.

You're mixing two different problems. Proving that there are bad students have nothing to do with disproving that there are bad teachers and how tenure is retarded. Just because you prove the sky is blue does not disprove the leaves are green. Both flu and I stated we had bad teachers in Honor/AP classes. These students are ready to learn. There were no students acting up in these classes.

Please don't lump me in with politicians. You like to do that a lot. I was not talking about "failing schools". I was talking about bad teachers. Yes, the problem is very complex, but no solution can arise when neither side concede that they're part of the problem too. At least I admit there are bad students and parents. You on the other hand things the bad teachers are few and far in between. How can you have an honest discussion about a solution when you're not aware of the whole complex problem?

[an]

[quote=CA renter]And why do they need bus monitors?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hDZHv2bn0w

Think you could drive a bus with this going on?

FWIW, I think that bus drivers have one of the toughest jobs in a school district.[/quote]
Do you think that bus monitor in the other video would be able to do anything in this situation? If that’s the reason for having a bus monitor, then I question why she was hired as a bus monitor. I would expect to see a 6′ 250lb guy as bus monitor.

[an]

[quote=CA renter]One more thing about “calling security,” is that even if the kid is sent home or to the principal/dean’s office that day, she will be back the next day or the one after that emboldened and just as bad as ever. As far as that student is concerned, the worst that can happen is she gets a couple of days off of school. Many of these students just LOVE a day off of school. As far as they’re concerned, they’ve “won,” and they will have no motivation to improve their behavior.

And let’s just assume you keep calling security every day to get these kids out of your classroom. Do you want to know what the administrators will say? They’ll tell you that you are clearly not capable of doing your job if you have to keep calling security and suspending your students all the time.[/quote]Not if I have video recording to prove what’s going on. No need for hearsay.

As for “they’ve won” statement, who cares? They don’t want to learn, so let them win. Obviously you and everyone in the teachers Union won’t let the good student out, so my solution then would be to kick out the bad students. If I have to call the cops and get the student arrested, so be it. A video recording is a very powerful tool to prove your case.

Anyways, you have no objection from me that there are bad students. But that has nothing to do w/ bad teachers. You still can’t believe that there are more bad teachers than you care to admit.

[an]

Since you love to post youtube videos, how about these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmPL1K9ucgQ

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d8d_1349066357
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=abusive+teachers+in+school&FORM=HDRSC3#view=detail&mid=DE521FA01F115BE5BBBEDE521FA01F115BE5BBBE

[CA renter]

[quote=AN][quote=CA renter]And why do they need bus monitors?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hDZHv2bn0w

Think you could drive a bus with this going on?

FWIW, I think that bus drivers have one of the toughest jobs in a school district.[/quote]
Do you think that bus monitor in the other video would be able to do anything in this situation? If that’s the reason for having a bus monitor, then I question why she was hired as a bus monitor. I would expect to see a 6′ 250lb guy as bus monitor.[/quote]

She can (is supposed to be able to) keep the kids seated and fairly quiet so the driver can drive.

Sure, it would be nice to have a 6’+ burly bodyguard type to do this job, but do you have any idea how much a bus monitor makes? Very few capable young men without criminal records would be willing to do this job, both because of the pay and because of the hours (can’t work another job if you’re working this one, and it’s usually a split shift). It’s the type of job that mostly middle-aged women will take when they are just trying to make some extra money after the kids leave the house.

[CA renter]

[quote=AN][quote=CA renter]One more thing about “calling security,” is that even if the kid is sent home or to the principal/dean’s office that day, she will be back the next day or the one after that emboldened and just as bad as ever. As far as that student is concerned, the worst that can happen is she gets a couple of days off of school. Many of these students just LOVE a day off of school. As far as they’re concerned, they’ve “won,” and they will have no motivation to improve their behavior.

And let’s just assume you keep calling security every day to get these kids out of your classroom. Do you want to know what the administrators will say? They’ll tell you that you are clearly not capable of doing your job if you have to keep calling security and suspending your students all the time.[/quote]Not if I have video recording to prove what’s going on. No need for hearsay.

As for “they’ve won” statement, who cares? They don’t want to learn, so let them win. Obviously you and everyone in the teachers Union won’t let the good student out, so my solution then would be to kick out the bad students. If I have to call the cops and get the student arrested, so be it. A video recording is a very powerful tool to prove your case.

Anyways, you have no objection from me that there are bad students. But that has nothing to do w/ bad teachers. You still can’t believe that there are more bad teachers than you care to admit.[/quote]

It’s not a matter of hearsay; the administrators may know full well what you’re dealing with and believe you 100%, but if you can’t handle it for the most part, then they will deem you incapable of doing your job.

See, that’s the difference between theory (people who’ve never done it before, but want to tell veteran teachers how to do their jobs) and practice (those who actually do it, day in and day out, over many years). There are only so many administrative resources that can be dedicated to “security” issues. If a teacher is calling security every time a student acts in a belligerent or obnoxious way, then the administrators will likely determine that the teacher is incapable of doing the job. Security needs to be available when a student gets physically violent or threatens physical violence (sometimes, not even then) or acts in such a defiant way that physical violence is likely to happen. As a teacher, you have to deal with the day-to-day defiance and obnoxiousness. In the “failing schools,” you may well have multiple students in a classroom who feed off of each other and spur each other on in a way that can really spiral into a chaotic situation. That’s why you see so many teachers lose it. They’ve been pushed over the edge after dealing with these extremely high-stress situations over long periods of time.

[CA renter]

[quote=AN]Guess what, I went to a HS that had plenty of fights too. As soon as the fight broke out, security came running. It usually ends in <3-5 minutes. Those students then get suspended. So, yes, I've witness what bad students too. Which is why I said there should be segregation of those type of students apart from those who wants to learn.

As I've stated, I'm not a professional teacher and I won't kid myself into thinking I can personally handle the violence. But that's why I said I'll call security instead of trying to handle it myself. As an adult, you should know what you can and can't handle. If you can't handle these tough students, then move to a school where this won't be a problem.

You're mixing two different problems. Proving that there are bad students have nothing to do with disproving that there are bad teachers and how tenure is retarded. Just because you prove the sky is blue does not disprove the leaves are green. Both flu and I stated we had bad teachers in Honor/AP classes. These students are ready to learn. There were no students acting up in these classes.

Please don't lump me in with politicians. You like to do that a lot. I was not talking about "failing schools". I was talking about bad teachers. Yes, the problem is very complex, but no solution can arise when neither side concede that they're part of the problem too. At least I admit there are bad students and parents. You on the other hand things the bad teachers are few and far in between. How can you have an honest discussion about a solution when you're not aware of the whole complex problem?[/quote]

1.) Yes, sending the bad students to a different school is one of my theoretical "solutions" offered above, but how do you counter the accusations that kids are being racially segregated? That's what segregating these kids will look like, and this is one of the main reasons they don't segregate the lower-performing students and kids with more behavioral problems in the first place.

2.) You can't just move to a different school if you think you can't handle the students. The lower-performing schools are usually where the jobs are. Either you work in these schools, or you don't have a job in certain districts.

3.) Yes, bad students, parents, and teachers exist. The difference is that really bad teachers like most of those in the videos you’ve posted are fired AND thrown in jail. The really bad students and bad parents don’t go away. Even if you expel a student (and the parent along with him/her) from one school, they end up in another, so there is a sort of musical chairs thing going on where bad students are concerned.

Contrary to popular myth, tenured teachers can and do lose their jobs. Tenure simply means that the are entitled to due process, which I agree is 100% necessary because of the agenda-driven parents and administrators who often target teachers for no reason other than the fact that they are “old,” or make more than a new teacher, or teach in a way that doesn’t align with what a vocal parent, school board member, or administrator wants.

[joec]

Maybe we should consider high school as not being mandatory anymore. That should save a lot of money. In addition to that, you can offer a very small payment for kids who keep out of trouble, not arrested, etc….like welfare, but starting at 13. Make sure to get the kids consent though since some families may want to get kids for just the money…will be a mess and impossible to administer, but all these ‘solutions’ for failing kids who don’t care are a waste of resources/money. Would really like to see kids who just don’t care to leave the system…no other place for them though.

Just seems cheaper to just pay them off to go away.

[CDMA ENG]

[quote=AN]Since you love to post youtube videos, how about these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmPL1K9ucgQ

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d8d_1349066357
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=abusive+teachers+in+school&FORM=HDRSC3#view=detail&mid=DE521FA01F115BE5BBBEDE521FA01F115BE5BBBE

YEAH! They mentioned my old Alma Mater in these! Way to go Chaparral HS!

Gotta love a womans detention center turned HS!

CE

[an]

[quote=joec]Maybe we should consider high school as not being mandatory anymore. That should save a lot of money. In addition to that, you can offer a very small payment for kids who keep out of trouble, not arrested, etc….like welfare, but starting at 13. Make sure to get the kids consent though since some families may want to get kids for just the money…will be a mess and impossible to administer, but all these ‘solutions’ for failing kids who don’t care are a waste of resources/money. Would really like to see kids who just don’t care to leave the system…no other place for them though.

Just seems cheaper to just pay them off to go away.[/quote]You’re thinking way outside of the box on that one /s. Seriously, why spend so much money on kids who don’t want to learn? Maybe instead of HS that prep them for college that they won’t go to, why not have trades school that prep them for work or military school. Maybe they can use some serious discipline.

[CA renter]

[quote=AN][quote=joec]Maybe we should consider high school as not being mandatory anymore. That should save a lot of money. In addition to that, you can offer a very small payment for kids who keep out of trouble, not arrested, etc….like welfare, but starting at 13. Make sure to get the kids consent though since some families may want to get kids for just the money…will be a mess and impossible to administer, but all these ‘solutions’ for failing kids who don’t care are a waste of resources/money. Would really like to see kids who just don’t care to leave the system…no other place for them though.

Just seems cheaper to just pay them off to go away.[/quote]You’re thinking way outside of the box on that one /s. Seriously, why spend so much money on kids who don’t want to learn? Maybe instead of HS that prep them for college that they won’t go to, why not have trades school that prep them for work or military school. Maybe they can use some serious discipline.[/quote]

Not outside of the box at all. Many European countries do this. My mother and all of our European relatives were schooled this way, and all of them seemed to like it. The problem, once again, is that a disproportionate majority of the university track students would be white/Asian (and wealthier, in general), and the vocational track would be black/Hispanic (and poorer, in general) if they tried to replicate this system in the US. How do you respond to accusations of racism? Many would argue that you are trying to perpetuate an uneven playing field if you make it even more difficult for these poorer students to work their way out of their situations.

To be honest, I like the idea of tracking students this way, and have always favored it because it just makes more sense on so many levels. But I would never advocate for it unless we had a third way that would enable these students and “late bloomers” to move to the university/college track. We would have to really strengthen the community college system (one of the greatest components of our educational system, IMO) so that kids and young adults could shift over if/when they want to do so.

[joec]

I don’t think I was trying to go outside the box completely with my comment to just dump HS as a retirement. It’s just, my jaded view of the world and what I see as “forcing” HS kids do anything isn’t going to work so we’re dumping 10k+ per year on kids literally down the drain since it’s just not going to work.

You don’t go from 1 day as a HS kid looking to just past the day, screw around, be a bully and get by to wanting to suddenly go to college and be “one of those brainy/nerdy kids.” It’s just not going to happen.

Having a close family member who NEVER graduated from HS at all in a family where near everyone is a doctor or advanced degreed person, bottom line is some kids were just never meant to succeed in the classroom and school, in a way, will just end up pissing off everyone.

Maybe they had ADD or some other medical issue, but doing things along the lines of vocational school, military, athletics, etc…actually gives these kids a BETTER way to succeed and contribute to society vs. having them waste 4 years in HS when they really would just graduate with non-basic HS skills anyways and no job. Take that 40k we’d spend and even pay them off if they choose to be a bum, but stay lawful.

Maybe they can train to do yard work, clean pools, wash windows, build homes, etc…

Look at all the mediocre kids coming out of HS not doing a thing. Spend 4 years learning a trade and you’d have a leg up already on the next guy.

In a way, turn a HS forced upon a kid to a trade/school or prep job thing.

In terms of racism for university, it could be said that there is already a disproportionate race majority in “some” colleges already…However, aren’t there some colleges also pre-dominantly black as well?

Bottom thought is that all these solutions aren’t going to work for kids who aren’t receptive to following a certain HS track so eliminate this form of forced school (after middle) school and come up with something more fit for these people to at least save money and keep them out of doing crime…

Just saw this today which I think is relevant in the grand scheme of forced school/life/jobs/even obamacare which allows people to quit their jobs without having to stay there if they hated it:

Why Amazon Pays Some Workers Up To $5,000 To Quit:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/10/amazon-pay-to-quit_n_5128035.html

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