UT opinion article on SB 1021 and Prop 30

[an]

[quote=ocrenter]
We must be REALLY REALLY unlucky to have encountered 2 of these type of VERY RARE teachers in my daughter’s 5 years of schooling starting in kindergarden. [/quote]Maybe it’s just that you don’t know what you’re talking about and those teachers are doing a great job.

[quote=ocrenter]NPR had a segment in 2012 where an experiement was done in a struggling school district. They gave bonuses to all of the teachers at the beginning of the year, if the teachers do not meet certain academic criteria, the bonuses would have to be returned. This is compared to teachers that were promised bonuses if the same acadmeic criteria was met. The result showed if the bonuses had to be returned, the students ended up doing much better.

http://www.npr.org/2012/09/19/161370443/do-scores-go-up-when-teachers-return-bonuses

So the question is would unions actually say yes to something like this???[/quote]Michelle Rhee offered something similar, essentially offering to double the pay if teachers will give up their tenure and they can get raises base on performance. It was a opt-in option as well, so teachers can still stay in the current system if they want. The union didn’t even let it come up for a vote.

[ltsddd]

[quote=CA renter]

Preuss succeeds only because of three things:

1. Students who have already proven themselves to be high achievers.

2. Parents who are mandated to participate in their child’s education on a variety of levels.

3. Fairly unlimited funding and resources (relatively speaking) from both public and private sources.[/quote]

There’s a fourth factor:

The fact that the kids and their parents are willing to go jump through all the hoops to get into the school demonstrates that they have the desire for a good education and would not squander the opportunity to learn once they get in.

[lookingagain]

[quote=AN]

Currently, SDUSD is spending $9,846 per student. A good (not elite) private school cost about $9-10k. With this cost, the class size range for 10-1 to 20-1 teachers to student ratio. This is from K-12 we’re talking about here. So, yeah, if it’s about class size, offer a $9846 yearly voucher to parents and their kids can have class size between 10-20 per teacher depending on grade. Sounds like an easy win IMHO.[/quote]

AN,
I do not mean to be picky especially since the number you quote here comes from CAR, but the cost per pupil at SDUSD is not $9846 per student. If you read into the way that the data is presented in the website CAR used, only the most direct costs are used to calculate that figure. This is like someone saying that the $1,000,000 house they bought with 0 down only costs $600 per month because all they are counting are the utility bills.

A number that is equally valid (and equally incorrect) is $1,900,000,000(the 2013/14 budget)/135000 students = $14,075 per student. And this number is probably closer to the truth.

My main point is that when someone brings data to a discussion (CAR) please bring honest data.

[an]

[quote=lookingagain][quote=AN]

Currently, SDUSD is spending $9,846 per student. A good (not elite) private school cost about $9-10k. With this cost, the class size range for 10-1 to 20-1 teachers to student ratio. This is from K-12 we’re talking about here. So, yeah, if it’s about class size, offer a $9846 yearly voucher to parents and their kids can have class size between 10-20 per teacher depending on grade. Sounds like an easy win IMHO.[/quote]

AN,
I do not mean to be picky especially since the number you quote here comes from CAR, but the cost per pupil at SDUSD is not $9846 per student. If you read into the way that the data is presented in the website CAR used, only the most direct costs are used to calculate that figure. This is like someone saying that the $1,000,000 house they bought with 0 down only costs $600 per month because all they are counting are the utility bills.

A number that is equally valid (and equally incorrect) is $1,900,000,000(the 2013/14 budget)/135000 students = $14,075 per student. And this number is probably closer to the truth.

My main point is that when someone brings data to a discussion (CAR) please bring honest data.[/quote]even with $9.8k, it’s still higher than or equal to a lot of private schools and you get less. I didn’t need to debate the official number from CA government when it’s enough to prove my point.

[CA renter]

[quote=lookingagain][quote=AN]

Currently, SDUSD is spending $9,846 per student. A good (not elite) private school cost about $9-10k. With this cost, the class size range for 10-1 to 20-1 teachers to student ratio. This is from K-12 we’re talking about here. So, yeah, if it’s about class size, offer a $9846 yearly voucher to parents and their kids can have class size between 10-20 per teacher depending on grade. Sounds like an easy win IMHO.[/quote]

AN,
I do not mean to be picky especially since the number you quote here comes from CAR, but the cost per pupil at SDUSD is not $9846 per student. If you read into the way that the data is presented in the website CAR used, only the most direct costs are used to calculate that figure. This is like someone saying that the $1,000,000 house they bought with 0 down only costs $600 per month because all they are counting are the utility bills.

A number that is equally valid (and equally incorrect) is $1,900,000,000(the 2013/14 budget)/135000 students = $14,075 per student. And this number is probably closer to the truth.

My main point is that when someone brings data to a discussion (CAR) please bring honest data.[/quote]

I did bring honest data. Please link your source so we can dissect it more. The public school number you’ve posted probably includes some major infrastructure and interest on bond payments, among many other indirect costs. Many private schools are attached to churches, so you’d have to take into consideration the payments made by the church for their building infrastructure, too. Also, your number for SD Unified might include things like busing, which most private schools don’t provide.

BTW, while I appreciate AN’s number, the private schools around in the better parts of North County cost anywhere from $20K to $35K/year. They have fundraising requirements *in addition to this.* They also tend to have more wealthy donors who will pay for significant portions of the schools’ buildings, etc. (with naming rights). While public schools might have fundraisers, they aren’t the same as those in the better private schools where the wealthier parents are expected to give much more than $50 or $100 per year.

[CA renter]

[quote=ltsdd][quote=CA renter]

Preuss succeeds only because of three things:

1. Students who have already proven themselves to be high achievers.

2. Parents who are mandated to participate in their child’s education on a variety of levels.

3. Fairly unlimited funding and resources (relatively speaking) from both public and private sources.[/quote]

There’s a fourth factor:

The fact that the kids and their parents are willing to go jump through all the hoops to get into the school demonstrates that they have the desire for a good education and would not squander the opportunity to learn once they get in.[/quote]

Agreed, and I think that can be incorporated into numbers 1 and 2. But you make a very valid point.

[an]

[quote=CA renter]BTW, while I appreciate AN’s number, the private schools around in the better parts of North County cost anywhere from $20K to $35K/year. They have fundraising requirements *in addition to this.* They also tend to have more wealthy donors who will pay for significant portions of the schools’ buildings, etc. (with naming rights). While public schools might have fundraisers, they aren’t the same as those in the better private schools where the wealthier parents are expected to give much more than $50 or $100 per year.[/quote]$20k-$35k? Really? La Jolla Country Day, Francis Parker, and Bishop’s are around $27-28k. Which school is $35k? Are you seriously comparing any public school to these elite private schools?

You’ve obviously haven’t even bothered with looking into the cost of non-religious private schools. I’ve shown examples but lets just say, for similar amount $10k/year, you’re looking at an elementary school that feeds into Francis Parker and Bishops. Their teacher to student ratio is 10-1 for pre-K & K, 12-1 for 1-3rd grade, 24-1 for 4-6th grade. Get back to me when public school can get some thing as close as those numbers. I’m not even talking about religious private schools. Those goes for $5-8k/year and they have similar teacher to student ratio.

[CA renter]

[quote=AN][quote=ocrenter]
We must be REALLY REALLY unlucky to have encountered 2 of these type of VERY RARE teachers in my daughter’s 5 years of schooling starting in kindergarden. [/quote]Maybe it’s just that you don’t know what you’re talking about and those teachers are doing a great job.

[quote=ocrenter]NPR had a segment in 2012 where an experiement was done in a struggling school district. They gave bonuses to all of the teachers at the beginning of the year, if the teachers do not meet certain academic criteria, the bonuses would have to be returned. This is compared to teachers that were promised bonuses if the same acadmeic criteria was met. The result showed if the bonuses had to be returned, the students ended up doing much better.

http://www.npr.org/2012/09/19/161370443/do-scores-go-up-when-teachers-return-bonuses

So the question is would unions actually say yes to something like this???[/quote]Michelle Rhee offered something similar, essentially offering to double the pay if teachers will give up their tenure and they can get raises base on performance. It was a opt-in option as well, so teachers can still stay in the current system if they want. The union didn’t even let it come up for a vote.[/quote]

Only an idiot would give up tenure for something as problem-plagued and prone to administrator abuse as that. And she didn’t double the salaries of everyone who opted out of tenure, only offered to give them merit pay/bonuses “up to” $130K in exchange for giving up tenure.

More on Michelle Rhee and her “reform” accomplishments:
———-

For teachers, DCPS has become a revolving door. Half of all newly hired teachers (both rookies and experienced teachers) leave within two years; by contrast, the national average is said to be between three and five years.[28]

It was a revolving door for principals as well. Rhee appointed 91 principals in her three years as chancellor, 39 of whom no longer held those jobs in August 2010. Some left on their own; others, on one-year contracts, were fired for not producing quickly enough.[29] She also fired more than 600 teachers.[30]

Child psychiatrists have long known that, to succeed, children need stability. Because many of the District’s children face multiple stresses at home and in their neighborhoods, schools are often that rock. However, in Rhee’s tumultuous reign, thousands of students attended schools where teachers and principals were essentially interchangeable parts, a situation that must have contributed to the instability rather than alleviating it.

The teacher evaluation system that Rhee instituted designates some teachers as ‘highly effective,’ but, despite awarding substantial bonuses and having the highest salary schedule in the region, DCPS is having difficulty retaining these teachers, 44% of whom say they do not feel valued by DCPS.[31]

Although Rhee removed about 100 central office personnel in her first year, the central office today is considerably larger, with more administrators per teachers than any district surrounding DC. In fact, the surrounding districts seem to have reduced their central office staff, while DC’s grew.[32] The greatest growth in DCPS has been in the number of employees making $100,000 or more per year, from 35 to 99.[33]Per pupil expenditures have risen sharply, from $13,830 per student to $17,574, an increase of 27%, compared to 10% inflation in the Washington-Baltimore region.[34]

A comparison of pre- and post-Rhee DC-CAS scores shows little or no gain, and most of the scores at 12 of the 14 highest ‘wrong to right’ erasure schools are now lower. Take Aiton Elementary, the school that Sanford wrote about: The year before Rhee arrived, 18% of Aiton students scored proficient in math and 31% in reading. Scores soared to over 60% during the ‘high erasure’ years, but today both reading and math scores are more than 40 percentile points lower.[35]

Enrollment declined on Rhee’s watch and has continued under Henderson, as families enrolled their children in charter schools or moved to the suburbs. The year before Rhee arrived, DCPS had 52,191 students. Today it enrolls about 45,000, a loss of roughly 13%.[36]

Even students who remained seem to be voting with their feet, because truancy in DC is a “crisis” situation[37], and Washington’s high school graduation rate is the lowest in the nation.[38]

Rhee and her admirers point to increases on the National Assessment of Educational Progress, an exam given every two years to a sample of students under the tightest possible security. And while NAEP scores did go up, they rose in roughly the same amount as they had under Rhee’s predecessor, and Washington remains at or near the bottom on that national measure.[39]

The most disturbing effect of Rhee’s reform effort is the widened gap in academic performance between low-income and upper-income students, a meaningful statistic in Washington, DC because race and income are highly correlated. On the most recent NAEP test (2011) only about 10% of low income students in grades 4 and 8 scored ‘proficient’ in reading and math. Since 2007, the performance gap has increased by 29% in 8th grade reading, by 44% in 4th grade reading, by 45% in 8th grade math, and by 72% in 4th grade math. Although these numbers are also influenced by changes in high- and low-income populations, the gaps are so extreme that is seems clear that low-income students, most of them African-American, did not fare well during Rhee’s time in Washington.[40]

*****

It’s 2013. Is there any point to investigating probable cheating that occurred in 2008, 2009 and 2010? After all, the children who received inflated scores can’t get a ‘do-over,’ and it’s probably too late to claw back bonuses from adults who cheated, even if they could be identified. While erasure analysis would reveal the extent of cheating, what deserves careful scrutiny is the behavior of the leadership when it learned that a significant number of adults were probably cheating, because five years later, Rhee’s former deputy is in charge of public schools, and Rhee continues her efforts to persuade states and districts to adopt her approach to education reform–an approach, the evidence indicates, did little or nothing to improve the public schools in our nation’s capital.

http://takingnote.learningmatters.tv/?p=6232

—————————

For more on Rhee’s cheating scandal:

An impasse over erasures

McGraw-Hill’s practice is to flag only the most extreme examples of erasures. To be flagged, a classroom had to have so many wrong-to-right erasures that the average for each student was 4 standard deviations higher than the average for all D.C. students in that grade on that test. In layman’s terms, that means a classroom corrected its answers so much more often than the rest of the district that it could have occurred roughly one in 30,000 times by chance. D.C. classrooms corrected answers much more often.

In 2008, the Office of the State Superintendent of Education (OSSE) — the D.C. equivalent of a state education department –– asked McGraw-Hill to do erasure analysis in part because some schools registered high percentage point gains in proficiency rates on the April 2008 tests.

Among the 96 schools that were then flagged for wrong-to-right erasures were eight of the 10 campuses where Rhee handed out so-called TEAM awards “to recognize, reward and retain high-performing educators and support staff,” as the district’s website says. Noyes was one of these.

Rhee bestowed more than $1.5 million in bonuses on principals, teachers and support staff on the basis of big jumps in 2007 and 2008 test scores.

At three of the award-winning schools — Phoebe Hearst Elementary, Winston Education Campus and Aiton Elementary — 85% or more of classrooms were identified as having high erasure rates in 2008. At four other schools, the percentage of classrooms in that category ranged from 17% to 58%.

Although all of the experts consulted by USA TODAY said such aberrations should trigger investigations at the school level, that did not happen in D.C. in 2008. No schools were investigated.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/2011-03-28-1Aschooltesting28_CV_N.htm

[CA renter]

[quote=AN][quote=CA renter]BTW, while I appreciate AN’s number, the private schools around in the better parts of North County cost anywhere from $20K to $35K/year. They have fundraising requirements *in addition to this.* They also tend to have more wealthy donors who will pay for significant portions of the schools’ buildings, etc. (with naming rights). While public schools might have fundraisers, they aren’t the same as those in the better private schools where the wealthier parents are expected to give much more than $50 or $100 per year.[/quote]$20k-$35k? Really? La Jolla Country Day, Francis Parker, and Bishop’s are around $27-28k. Which school is $35k? Are you seriously comparing any public school to these elite private schools?

You’ve obviously haven’t even bothered with looking into the cost of non-religious private schools. I’ve shown examples but lets just say, for similar amount $10k/year, you’re looking at an elementary school that feeds into Francis Parker and Bishops. Their teacher to student ratio is 10-1 for pre-K & K, 12-1 for 1-3rd grade, 24-1 for 4-6th grade. Get back to me when public school can get some thing as close as those numbers. I’m not even talking about religious private schools. Those goes for $5-8k/year and they have similar teacher to student ratio.[/quote]

I spoke of the better private schools. These are the only ones, IMO, where students might get some kind of academic benefit over public schools.

But you’re right, the ones up here are not as expensive; I had looked into them for our own kids, but there was no way we could afford them.

The Grauer School is $22,000-$23,500 (this is the one we were most interested in which is why that number stuck)

http://www.grauerschool.com/admissions/tuition-and-financial-assistance/

Rhoades is $15,570-$16,550

http://www.rhoadesschool.com/domain/110

Sanderling Waldorf is $14,400, including fees

http://www.sanderlingschool.org/html/admissions/tuition_fees.html

Encinitas Country Day is $12,710, including fees

http://www.edline.net/files/_lNALY_/123731cee77b2afd3745a49013852ec4/2013-2014_Rate_Sheet.pdf

———–

Again, these numbers do NOT include donations from parents, alumni, or other sources.

[CA renter]

And please tell us if this is an example of a teacher who should be fired, or one who should tell other teachers around the country how to teach after just three years in the classroom. The first year “classroom management” skills are instructive:

——–

[The teacher in question] had poor class management skills, she said, recalling that her class “was very well known in the school because you could hear them traveling anywhere because they were so out of control.” On one particularly rowdy day, she said she decided to place little pieces of masking tape on their lips for the trip to the school cafeteria for lunch.

“OK kids, we’re going to do something special today!” she said she told them.

[Teacher’s name] said it worked well until they actually arrived at the cafeteria. “I was like, ‘OK, take the tape off. I realized I had not told the kids to lick their lips beforehand…The skin is coming off their lips and they’re bleeding. Thirty-five kids were crying.”

Yep, Michelle Rhee.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcschools/2010/08/michelle_rhee_first-year_teach.html

———-

And those test scores from her own classroom experience that she so often touted?

…

Here I will attempt to follow four different cohorts of students through Harlem Park Elementary, one of the Baltimore City public schools that was taken over by Tesseract/Edison company for several years in the early-to-mid-1990s and failed. Using publicly available data, I graphed the average percentile ranks of groups of students as they went through Harlem Park in first grade, then second grade, then third grade, and so on. If there’s a blank in my graphs, it’s because the data isn’t there.

I highlighted the classes where Michelle Rhee was teaching. In her last year, the scores did rise some, but nowhere near what she claimed. In her first year, they dropped almost as low as they can go. If Tesseract/Edison had been using the IMPACT evaluation system she foisted on DCPS teachers, she would have probably been fired after the first year!

The Rhee Miracle Examined Again – By Cohort

[ocrenter]

[quote=CA renter]

[quote=ocrenter]NPR had a segment in 2012 where an experiement was done in a struggling school district. They gave bonuses to all of the teachers at the beginning of the year, if the teachers do not meet certain academic criteria, the bonuses would have to be returned. This is compared to teachers that were promised bonuses if the same acadmeic criteria was met. The result showed if the bonuses had to be returned, the students ended up doing much better.

http://www.npr.org/2012/09/19/161370443/do-scores-go-up-when-teachers-return-bonuses

So the question is would unions actually say yes to something like this???[/quote]

[/quote]

To say the least, Michelle Rhee’s time in DC was controversial. Needless to say, you have some strong feelings about the lady.

Did you at least get a chance to look at the NPR piece on performance based bonuses that need to be returned if certain goals are not met?

Obviously we are all eager to see positive changes with the schools. So please don’t minimize the problem (by saying bad teachers are rare and far-between). I didn’t bring up anything controversial. Just a simple research that showed an effective tool at improving academic performance.

As a die-hard union supporter, is that something the union would say yes to?

[ltsddd]

[quote=CA renter]
Again, these numbers do NOT include donations from parents, alumni, or other sources.[/quote]

Very true. I could only speak about Francis Parker here – and the data point is about 12+ years old. Part of the application process is the interview session with the parents. And one of the key information they want to get out from you is, after you’ve paid through the nose for the tuition, how much can you donate to the school. Consider the tuition as a barrier to entry.

[ltsddd]

Does anyone know, academically, how private schools like FP, Bishop, and Cathedral Catholic compared to the public schools like Torrey Pines, Westview, Del Norte and BR High Schools?

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=ocrenter][quote=CA renter]

[quote=ocrenter]NPR had a segment in 2012 where an experiement was done in a struggling school district. They gave bonuses to all of the teachers at the beginning of the year, if the teachers do not meet certain academic criteria, the bonuses would have to be returned. This is compared to teachers that were promised bonuses if the same acadmeic criteria was met. The result showed if the bonuses had to be returned, the students ended up doing much better.

http://www.npr.org/2012/09/19/161370443/do-scores-go-up-when-teachers-return-bonuses

So the question is would unions actually say yes to something like this???[/quote]

[/quote]

To say the least, Michelle Rhee’s time in DC was controversial. Needless to say, you have some strong feelings about the lady.

Did you at least get a chance to look at the NPR piece on performance based bonuses that need to be returned if certain goals are not met?

Obviously we are all eager to see positive changes with the schools. So please don’t minimize the problem (by saying bad teachers are rare and far-between). I didn’t bring up anything controversial. Just a simple research that showed an effective tool at improving academic performance.

As a die-hard union supporter, is that something the union would say yes to?[/quote]

this reflects the human reality that we are pained to lose something we already have much more than we are pleased to gain something we don’t. this is the nature of humans and im pretty sure it’s been wired into us over many years for survival purposes. a bird int he hand, etc. obviously, it’s not entirely rational, since the end expected result may statistically be the same, but the feelings are the feelings.

probably run into legal problems making people return money later they don’t have. maybe do soem sort of hybrid system where they geta trust that is in their name with certain conditions, but they get the paperwork and the feeling that it is theirs…

[joec]

Am I one of the few people who feel all this is sorta futile? I was reading the UT this morning and an article was saying that only like 30% or so graduating high school even meet college or basic UC minimum requirements to attend.

I think the main problem is when a child is young, you can “force” them to study, work hard, etc…and turn things around…

Once they hit their teens, if their home and friend environment aren’t up to snuff to stress the importance of school/academics/education/future/jobs, you are pretty much fighting a losing battle if they aren’t worried about what college to go to, but what food to eat or if they should join this or that gang…etc…

or if they should “hook up” and sleep with that boy, etc…

All these cases are sorta loss causes IMO and until you change the desire of the kid who wants to get out of his dump, or at least have more positive role models that they “can” get out, I think the large majority will fail. Seems like a waste almost to even send them to school…maybe teach them a trade/craft, etc…instead.

From what I’ve seen, only Sports and Music/entertainment/movies seems to really get the slum kids out and even then, after they play or get famous, they lose most of their money as well…

For the few who show genuine interest, I agree that more should be done since they’re the ones who can get out of their bad hood, but a lot of kids (at least from what you read), seem do the school thing up to high school because that’s just where their friends are and what is required of society, but once they hit 18, they’re pretty much completely worthless to society in terms of productivity. Maybe just pay them to not attend since it’s a waste of money anyways.

I think the downside of private schools is that a lot more kids are probably hard core so if you’re trying to get into Harvard or Stanford, they probably won’t accept that many from your smaller private school and just 1 or 2 top kids.

This kid will be going to Harvard or Stanford I read…(his choice)…
http://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/student-wins-100-000-siemens-prize-pandemic-flu-research-project-f2D11729123

and he goes to a public school I believe (Canyon Crest)…

[Author]

Posts