- This topic has 153 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 7 months ago by
livinincali.
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April 4, 2014 at 2:02 AM #772470April 4, 2014 at 2:03 AM #772469
an
Participant[quote=CA renter][quote=AN][quote=CA renter]Read the links from the above posts. We’ve already done this before.
I’m referring to the same student populations (SES/demographic backgrounds) from within this country.[/quote]Then how do you explain Preuss School UCSD? Yes we’ve talked about this many times before. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. FYI, you can’t state public school is the best and cheapest when it’s absolutely not true. When I see private school have 12-1 teacher to student ratio while public school have 24-1 or 30-1, how can you even say with a straight face that public school is the cheapest.[/quote]
Already done that one, too! ;)[/quote]FYI, all you said is (SES/demographic backgrounds). If you bring in IQ and desire to learn, does your other study also make sure all students have similar IQ and similar desire to learn? If you seriously think that’s a good argument, then it can be used to reject ALL studies thus far relating to school choice.
[quote=CA renter]Here is a small sampling of what Preuss offers (regular public schools can’t even begin to offer all of this, or the state would have been broke decades ago):[/quote]Why? If Preuss can do it, why can’t public school? If there’s no way public school can do it, why not open 100+ more Preuss?
April 4, 2014 at 2:08 AM #772472Participant[quote=CA renter]Not in schools, it’s not. Nor should it be. Some administrators come in with a major agenda. I’ve known of principals who were totally opposed to the teaching of phonics in any way. In one case, if the principal happened to walk past a classroom and the teacher was working on letter sounds, the teacher would be written up. Enough write-ups, and the teacher could lose his/her job. This was at an elementary school…with over 90% ESL students, no less!
Needless to say, the union had its work cut out with that one.
Teachers need to have protection from administrators and parents who want to push their own agendas. I can’t think of any other job (other than politics) where a person has more wannabe bosses and where everyone from the POTUS to the local mom who never graduated from high school (and everyone in between) wants to dictate exactly how they need to do their job.[/quote]Again, let me repeat, what you’re describing is life and everyone goes through it. Some companies are bad and some companies are good. If the way a company is working doesn’t fit your desire, you move. FYI, I know it’s hard to understand, but you’re working for the parents. With out parents and their kids, teachers have no job.
April 4, 2014 at 2:09 AM #772471CA renter
Participant[quote=AN]
FYI, all you said is (SES/demographic backgrounds). If you bring in IQ and desire to learn, does your other study also make sure all students have similar IQ and similar desire to learn? If you seriously think that’s a good argument, then it can be used to reject ALL studies thus far relating to school choice.
[quote=CA renter]Here is a small sampling of what Preuss offers (regular public schools can’t even begin to offer all of this, or the state would have been broke decades ago):[/quote]Why? If Preuss can do it, why can’t public school? If there’s no way public school can do it, why not open 100+ more Preuss?[/quote]
SES and demographic backgrounds are highly correlated to IQ.
Regarding your last comment about Preuss, did you not read what was posted? The cost per student at Preuss is WAAAAY above the cost per student at a regular public school. Preuss relies heavily on wealthy donors as well as resources from UCSD.
And could Preuss get the same outcomes from students with low IQs, SES, etc. if they threw all this money and all of these resources at them? No, they could not. They’ve tried that already and failed.
April 4, 2014 at 2:12 AM #772474Participant[quote=CA renter]SES and demographic backgrounds are highly correlated to IQ. [/quote]I think you’re contradicting yourself here.
[quote=CA renter]Regarding your last comment about Preuss, did you not read what was posted? The cost per student at Preuss is WAAAAY above the cost per student at a regular public school. Preuss relies heavily on wealthy donors.[/quote]How much more? Why can’t we rely on wealthy donors in public school as well? Need an example? Think UC/CSU.
[quote=CA renter]And could Preuss get the same outcomes from students with low IQs, SES, etc. if they threw all this money and all of these resources at them? No, they could not. They’ve tried that already and failed.[/quote]Proof? I thought SES + demographic backgrounds are highly correlated to IQ? I’m getting lost trying to follow your contradiction.
April 4, 2014 at 2:13 AM #772473ParticipantNo, the parents are NOT the bosses, no matter what you might think. Nor should they be. Most parents have ZERO knowledge or understanding where childhood education is concerned. Parents are given the incredible benefit of a public education. Billions of people around the world would love to have that option. It’s the parents and their children who are given a fantastic opportunity, not the teachers. Our education system is why so many people want to come to this country.
If you think schools are bad now, it would be far, far worse if they followed your suggestions.
April 4, 2014 at 2:15 AM #772475Participant[quote=CA renter]No, the parents are NOT the bosses, no matter what you might think. Nor should they be. Most parents have ZERO knowledge or understanding where childhood education is concerned.
If you think schools are bad now, it would be far, far worse if they followed your suggestions.[/quote]Yep, tell that to the parents in Sweden. Or better yet, tell that to the parents who send their kids to Tier 1/2/3 University or vocational school or JC.
April 4, 2014 at 2:18 AM #772476Participant[quote=AN]
[quote=CA renter]Regarding your last comment about Preuss, did you not read what was posted? The cost per student at Preuss is WAAAAY above the cost per student at a regular public school. Preuss relies heavily on wealthy donors.[/quote]How much more? Why can’t we rely on wealthy donors in public school as well? Need an example? Think UC/CSU.[/quote]
Okay, you go out and drum up all that funding, and make sure they commit to the same amount, or more, every single year. Go for it!
As for the notion that every public school can be attached to a UC/CSU campus? Not logistically possible. Additionally, the Preuss/UCSD relationship works because it’s 1:1 and the schools are on the same campus. If you could magically move 20-30 public schools onto the campus (probably more, I’m just pulling those numbers out of the air because I don’t know the public school:university ratio), then the quality of the assistance would go down because the resources would be diverted to other schools and students.
April 4, 2014 at 2:24 AM #772478Participant[quote=AN][quote=CA renter]SES and demographic backgrounds are highly correlated to IQ. [/quote]I think you’re contradicting yourself here.
[quote=CA renter]And could Preuss get the same outcomes from students with low IQs, SES, etc. if they threw all this money and all of these resources at them? No, they could not. They’ve tried that already and failed.[/quote]Proof? I thought SES + demographic backgrounds are highly correlated to IQ? I’m getting lost trying to follow your contradiction.[/quote]
Perhaps I’m not getting your point, then. What is your point WRT IQ?
Specifically, what do you mean by this as it pertains to what I’ve posted? You can include SES/IQ/demographic background together. They are all highly correlated.
Again, there is no evidence that private schools or charter schools perform better than public schools once these variables are taking into consideration. The vast majority of studies show the opposite, that public schools outperform private schools.
[quote=AN]
FYI, all you said is (SES/demographic backgrounds). If you bring in IQ and desire to learn, does your other study also make sure all students have similar IQ and similar desire to learn? If you seriously think that’s a good argument, then it can be used to reject ALL studies thus far relating to school choice.
[/quote]
April 4, 2014 at 2:24 AM #772477Participant[quote=AN][quote=CA renter]No, the parents are NOT the bosses, no matter what you might think. Nor should they be. Most parents have ZERO knowledge or understanding where childhood education is concerned.
If you think schools are bad now, it would be far, far worse if they followed your suggestions.[/quote]Yep, tell that to the parents in Sweden. Or better yet, tell that to the parents who send their kids to Tier 1/2/3 University or vocational school or JC.[/quote]
Parents have no say at the vocational and JC level, nor do they have any say at the Tier 1/2/3 universities. Additionally, all of the teachers/professors at those (public) institutions are unionized, at least the ones I’m aware of. Not sure what your point is.
And Sweden????
April 4, 2014 at 2:33 AM #772479ParticipantFrom the other thread:
[quote=CA renter][Sorry for the formatting on this, and I’m too tired to fix it right now. Please click link to see original research. -CAR]
However, new results from a study of a large,
comprehensive dataset on US student achievement
seriously challenge assumptions
of private school superiority
overall, and find substantial
differences between different t
ypes of private schools. Ba
sed on the 2003 National Assessment
of Educational Progress (NAEP) mathematics ex
am, this analysis compares achievement in
public, charter, and different type
s of private schools. When co
mpared with other subjects (like
reading, for instance), math is more heavily in
fluenced by school than home experiences, so
studying math achievement provides
clearer insights into the rela
tive performance of different
types of schools. The 2003 NAEP samples are ove
r ten times larger than
in any previous NAEP
administration, providing achievement and student,
teacher, and administrator survey data on
over 190,000 4
th
graders (up from 13,855 in 2000) in
7485 schools, and more than 153,000 8
th
graders (up from 15,930 in 2000) in 6092 schools.
Earlier studies of charter schools based on
these data were disputed because researchers ha
d to rely on a web tool that did not allow for
simultaneous analysis of multiple student- and school
-level variables. This new analysis of the
complete raw data employs advanced statistica
l techniques (hierarchical
linear modeling) to
study the relationship between school type and
mathematics achievement while controlling for
demographic differences in the pop
ulations served by the schools.
Major Findings
Without controlling for student background differe
nces, private schools scored higher than non-
charter public schools, as would be expected.
However, this study examines these patterns
further, determining whether they are due simp
ly to the fact that
higher proportions of
disadvantaged students are enrolled
in public schools, and the exte
nt to which the gaps persist
3
after controlling for potential student- and
school-level confounding variables, including
measures of socioeconomic status, race/ethnicity,
gender, disability, limited English proficiency,
and school location.
Overall, the study demonstrates th
at demographic differences between
students in public and private
schools more than account for the relatively high raw scores of
private schools. Indeed, after controlling for these differences, the presumably advantageous
“private school effect” disappears, and even reverses in most cases.-page 2
http://www.ncspe.org/publications_files/OP111.pdf%5B/quote%5D
and…
[quote=CA renter]As for pricey private schools outperforming public schools:
Academic League
The Bishop’s Academic League team participates in the Northern division of the City League. Recent results include winning the Northern Division championships in 2011 and 2013. The Bishop’s School has lost, though, both city championships to La Jolla High School in 2011 and Madison High School in 2013. The team also competes in NAQT tournaments throughout the year, finishing 2013 with an invitation to the National Finals of NAQT.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bishop%27s_School_%28La_Jolla%29
………..
FWIW, here are the results of the Academic Decathlon. It’s open to all public and private high schools. We’d need to know the ratio of public-to-private schools to get an accurate picture of representation at top levels, but I do know that many prestigious private schools compete in this competition. Look at who the winners are, check the history over the years, and you’ll see that public schools are at the top in almost every single event over the years:
http://academicdecathlon.org/scores/county2013.pdf
Other years and more information:
http://academicdecathlon.org/scores.htm%5B/quote%5D
http://piggington.com/ot_how_one_school_district_got_rid_of_the_greedy_teachers_union?page=1
April 4, 2014 at 2:44 AM #772480Participant[quote=AN]
[quote=CA renter]And could Preuss get the same outcomes from students with low IQs, SES, etc. if they threw all this money and all of these resources at them? No, they could not. They’ve tried that already and failed.[/quote]Proof? I thought SES + demographic backgrounds are highly correlated to IQ? I’m getting lost trying to follow your contradiction.[/quote]
Again, not exactly sure about what you’re asking for here, but if you’re questioning the experiment with throwing money at poor schools, read this:
With that money, the district built 15 new schools and renovated 54 others. Included were nearly five dozen magnet schools, which concentrated on such things as computer science, foreign languages, environmental science, and classical Greek athletics. Those schools featured such amenities as an Olympic-sized swimming pool with an underwater viewing room; a robotics lab; professional quality recording, television, and animation studios; theaters; a planetarium; an arboretum, a zoo, and a 25-acre wildlife sanctuary; a two-floor library, art gallery, and film studio; a mock court with a judge’s chamber and jury deliberation room; and a model United Nations with simultaneous translation capability.
To entice white students to come to Kansas City, the district had set aside $900,000 for advertising, including TV ads, brochures, and videocassettes. If a suburban student needed a ride, Kansas City had a special $6.4 million transportation budget for busing. If the student didn’t live on a bus route, the district would send a taxi. Once the students got to Kansas City, they could take courses in garment design, ceramics, and Suzuki violin. The computer magnet at Central High had 900 interconnected computers, one for every student in the school. In the performing arts school, students studied ballet, drama, and theater production. They absorbed their physics from Russian-born teachers, and elementary grade students learned French from native speakers recruited from Quebec, Belgium, and Cameroon.(17)
For students in the classical Greek athletic program, there were weight rooms, racquetball courts, and a six-lane indoor running track better than those found in many colleges. The high school fencing team, coached by the former Soviet Olympic fencing coach, took field trips to Senegal and Mexico.(18)
The ratio of students to instructional staff was 12 or 13 to 1, the lowest of any major school district in the country.(19) There was $25,000 worth of beads, blocks, cubes, weights, balls, flags, and other manipulatives in every Montessori-style elementary school classroom. Younger children took midday naps listening to everything from chamber music to “Songs of the Humpback Whale.” For working parents the district provided all-day kindergarten for youngsters and before- and after-school programs for older students…
…The Kansas City plan did have some successes. The district had perhaps the best facilities in the country. The equipment was state of the art. One former student won a Rhodes scholarship. Some of the students got an opportunity to visit other parts of this country or Europe. David Armor, an educational consultant and sociologist who testified in Clark’s court on educational achievement in January 1997, found that the desegregation plan did integrate the system “as far as was possible,” given the conditions that existed in Kansas City. “But educationally,” he noted, “it hasn’t changed any of the measurable outcomes.”(96) Scores on standardized tests didn’t go up at all. And the average three-grade-level black-white achievement gap was as big as it always had been.
In perhaps the biggest surprise, Armor’s studies found that black elementary students who go to magnet schools (which have the highest percentages of whites) score no better on standardized tests than do blacks who go to all-black nonmagnet schools.(97) In short, Armor found that, contrary to the notion on which the whole desegregation plan was founded–that going to school with middle-class whites would increase blacks’ achievement–the Kansas City experiment showed that “integration has no effect.”(98)
April 4, 2014 at 6:02 AM #772481no_such_reality
Participant[quote=CA renter]Here’s the salary table for SD Unified’s teachers. Under no circumstances are teachers overpaid.
I like page 6. Page 6 is for a 227 work day year, close but not quite equivalent to a typical private sector work year.
Salaries range from $49,594 for a first year, BA level person, to $102K qfor 17 years, MA and 90 credit units of ‘training’.
That 183 work day calendar an pay rate does not include paid holidays nor any accumulated vacation, sick time that they are paid. See the following school schedule calendar
Private sector workers start with a 260 work day year. Anywhere from 6-10 holidays, So 254 to 250 ‘work’ days.
Apples to apples 183 days not including holidays maps to ~250 work days in the private sector. We need to compare total comp per day ‘worked’.
Per attached schedule, they have 13 paid holidays which results in 7% more money for those 183 days. So that $39,982/yr pay schedule first year, BA only teacher, not including sick time, vacation, is getting $233 per day worked (in annual pay) or, equivalent to the private sector person making $233/day for their 250 work days or $58,443/yr. Not a bad entry salary.
Likewise that 17 year, BA only teacher, equates out to $92K/yr for 250 days of work. The heavily credentialed 17 year vet is making the equivalent of $120k/year of the private sector.
That’s assuming the private sector persons sick time, vacation time and benefits are on par. LOL.
April 4, 2014 at 6:25 AM #772483livinincali
ParticipantThe problem with giving schools more money is that it’s never used for the things they say it will be used for. Say we gave SDUSD a 10% increase in the budget. Anybody want to bet that least than half of that increase is going to give the existing teachers and administrator raises? They might use 2% of that money to hire new teachers and make a big spectacle about how they hired those new teachers but the vast majority of that money is going to the existing employees in raises. Not only that but the biggest portion is going to go to those people that have a short time left in the classroom (i.e. nearing retirement) or those already not in the classroom (Administrators). Why should we give money money to schools when we know the money isn’t going to be used to improve the education experience. The existing administrators and teachers are the ones that are failing and giving them all 10% raises isn’t going to suddenly make them better teachers or administrators.
April 4, 2014 at 6:30 AM #772482ParticipantIf you want proof of why socialistic systems fail, just look at public education. It’s probably one of the most socialistic institutions in the country and it continues to get poor results because they refuse analyze these policies and change them.
They refuse to look at administrative costs. They refuse to do meaningful performance evaluation. They promote kids based on feeling rather than knowing the content. They refuse to split kids up by ability and let those at the top succeed.
The successes of the Preus school should be a model for public schools. Hey maybe we should segregate the high IQ kids and give them some teachers that can allow them to succeed. Instead that is deemed unfair (The number one phrase in the socialists playbook) and so we stick all the kids in the same room and teach to the left hand side of the bell curve. Everybody on the right side of the bell curve is bored and those are the far left still aren’t getting it.
We just have to accept the fact that everybody isn’t born with the same ability. Life isn’t fair. Let’s try to get those that can really succeed ahead and those that really struggle the basic life skills they need to function in society. They need the ability to read, write and do mathematics. Put them through classes that focus on real life skills and let them skip physics, chemistry, advanced history, etc. Stuff that they don’t need to function and stuff that they can always learn by READING if they are interested in it.
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