Time for Jeff Bridges to dump Hyundai

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=Rt.66]Allen it is you that is Cherry picking. You use Unsubstantiable variables to make your point. I am using cold hard realities.

Who knows to what extent GMs management caused problems? It’s hard to substantiate that.

After all, they were heroes just a few years ago with awesome SUVs they were making tons of profit on and people bought like crazy. Look at the world beating Corvette? How about the new Camero. I argue that they have made the right choices given the FACT that they are not allowed to compete on an even playing field and thus have been FORCED to put their efforts into more expensive models with better margins.

You try and make a low profit margin small car with a $4k disadvantage before you even weld one panel.

Your position is debatable.

What we need not debate is that our Gov. helps foreign countries beat us. Why? Who knows, maybe it’s just trade charity to win/keep allies?

The $4k per car trade policy gift/advantage that Japan and Korea have enjoyed over us is reason enough for our industry’s problems. There it is, it’s real and it a deal breaking, unsustainable reality for our auto makers.

Also, lack of support by US consumers is an obvious, real nail in the coffin. Millions of Americans sending the dollars they earn here, over to Japan, Korea etc. can in no one’s mind not have wreaked substantial damage.

Anything else is just “might have contributed” cherry picking conversation.

[/quote]

Rt.66: It’s actually very easy to substantiate how GM’s management contributed: There are literally hundreds of case studies on this. I did two myself, one in Advanced Managerial Accounting and one in an upper division business management class (both at SDSU). You should also refer to studies on Deming’s “Just In Time” inventory and supply chain management system, which US automakers shunned and the Japanese adopted and with great success.

My dad worked at Ford Aerospace from the early 1970s till he retired in 1989 and told me that Ford Motor Co. had sent teams out from Michigan to study the way the Aerospace division did business and largely because Aerospace had eliminated nearly all of their engineering “bottlenecks” through process engineering and FoMoCo wanted to adopt that process. Unfortunately, all of the execs from Michigan were of the opinion that they couldn’t emulate the process because the politics in back at HQ wouldn’t allow implementation.

There is nothing “fuzzy” that doesn’t allow for substantiation or study. It’s been done to death, actually. This slow death took decades and much of it is attributable to poor labor policies (both union and management), lack of focus on the customer in the 1970s and 1980s while GM and Ford were out buying up Hughes and EDS and trying to be “world class” and an inability to keep up with the times.

Those periods as of late when you call GM management “heroes” is nothing more than a surge of consumers buying high margin SUVs with self-destructive (for GM and the consumer) 0% purchase programs. GM itself knew that both the vehicles and the incentive programs were unsustainable and Wagoner (and Mullaly at Ford) said this repeatedly.

As I said, there are no secrets here.

[Rt.66]

Allan from Fallbrook said: The “crazy reliable” Ford 500 I drive is now experiencing some sort of weird gremlin that is causing my dashboard electronics and gauges to intermittently die.

Turns out that in 30 seconds I was able to find that your example of why US cars lack quality seems to be a very common problem amongst Toyota owners:

http://www.google.com/search?q=toyota+dash+lights+go+out&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GWYA

All it takes is a tiny bit of effort to refute the commonly accepted idea that US cars break and Japanese ones don’t.

There is an undeniable favoritism towards Japanese cars in this country. That search above shows that lots of Toyota owners have all sorts of problems with their dash lights going out when they apply the brakes, turn off the headlights and at other random times.

Name any trouble you’ve had with your US car and I’ll show you plenty of people who’ve experienced something similar with a Japanese model.

Odd thing is that the Japanese drivers often ignore the problems and brush off minor annoyances with a Honda that they’d chastise a Chevy for. Why?

[Rt.66]

Allan from Fallbrook said: The “crazy reliable” Ford 500 I drive is now experiencing some sort of weird gremlin that is causing my dashboard electronics and gauges to intermittently die.

Turns out that in 30 seconds I was able to find that your example of why US cars lack quality seems to be a very common problem amongst Toyota owners:

http://www.google.com/search?q=toyota+dash+lights+go+out&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GWYA

All it takes is a tiny bit of effort to refute the commonly accepted idea that US cars break and Japanese ones don’t.

There is an undeniable favoritism towards Japanese cars in this country. That search above shows that lots of Toyota owners have all sorts of problems with their dash lights going out when they apply the brakes, turn off the headlights and at other random times.

Name any trouble you’ve had with your US car and I’ll show you plenty of people who’ve experienced something similar with a Japanese model.

Odd thing is that the Japanese drivers often ignore the problems and brush off minor annoyances with a Honda that they’d chastise a Chevy for. Why?

[Rt.66]

Allan from Fallbrook said: The “crazy reliable” Ford 500 I drive is now experiencing some sort of weird gremlin that is causing my dashboard electronics and gauges to intermittently die.

Turns out that in 30 seconds I was able to find that your example of why US cars lack quality seems to be a very common problem amongst Toyota owners:

http://www.google.com/search?q=toyota+dash+lights+go+out&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GWYA

All it takes is a tiny bit of effort to refute the commonly accepted idea that US cars break and Japanese ones don’t.

There is an undeniable favoritism towards Japanese cars in this country. That search above shows that lots of Toyota owners have all sorts of problems with their dash lights going out when they apply the brakes, turn off the headlights and at other random times.

Name any trouble you’ve had with your US car and I’ll show you plenty of people who’ve experienced something similar with a Japanese model.

Odd thing is that the Japanese drivers often ignore the problems and brush off minor annoyances with a Honda that they’d chastise a Chevy for. Why?

[Rt.66]

Allan from Fallbrook said: The “crazy reliable” Ford 500 I drive is now experiencing some sort of weird gremlin that is causing my dashboard electronics and gauges to intermittently die.

Turns out that in 30 seconds I was able to find that your example of why US cars lack quality seems to be a very common problem amongst Toyota owners:

http://www.google.com/search?q=toyota+dash+lights+go+out&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GWYA

All it takes is a tiny bit of effort to refute the commonly accepted idea that US cars break and Japanese ones don’t.

There is an undeniable favoritism towards Japanese cars in this country. That search above shows that lots of Toyota owners have all sorts of problems with their dash lights going out when they apply the brakes, turn off the headlights and at other random times.

Name any trouble you’ve had with your US car and I’ll show you plenty of people who’ve experienced something similar with a Japanese model.

Odd thing is that the Japanese drivers often ignore the problems and brush off minor annoyances with a Honda that they’d chastise a Chevy for. Why?

[Rt.66]

Allan from Fallbrook said: The “crazy reliable” Ford 500 I drive is now experiencing some sort of weird gremlin that is causing my dashboard electronics and gauges to intermittently die.

Turns out that in 30 seconds I was able to find that your example of why US cars lack quality seems to be a very common problem amongst Toyota owners:

http://www.google.com/search?q=toyota+dash+lights+go+out&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GWYA

All it takes is a tiny bit of effort to refute the commonly accepted idea that US cars break and Japanese ones don’t.

There is an undeniable favoritism towards Japanese cars in this country. That search above shows that lots of Toyota owners have all sorts of problems with their dash lights going out when they apply the brakes, turn off the headlights and at other random times.

Name any trouble you’ve had with your US car and I’ll show you plenty of people who’ve experienced something similar with a Japanese model.

Odd thing is that the Japanese drivers often ignore the problems and brush off minor annoyances with a Honda that they’d chastise a Chevy for. Why?

[Rt.66]

Allen, so GMs successes are dumb luck and their woes are a direct result of poor management? That’s convenient. I hope people don’t apply those standards to your work.

Also, and again…. that’s debatable.

This really is not, if you are being rational:

1) The $4k per car trade policy gift/advantage that Japan and Korea have enjoyed over us is real, unfair and unfightable over the long run.

2) Lack of support by US consumers who chose to buy millions of foreign cars caused untold damage and market share loss. Can’t be debated, sorry.

These two things were a death sentence, death is occurring, end of mystery.

Jesus Christ could have been running these companies and we’d still face the eventuality these two conditions created.

[Rt.66]

Allen, so GMs successes are dumb luck and their woes are a direct result of poor management? That’s convenient. I hope people don’t apply those standards to your work.

Also, and again…. that’s debatable.

This really is not, if you are being rational:

1) The $4k per car trade policy gift/advantage that Japan and Korea have enjoyed over us is real, unfair and unfightable over the long run.

2) Lack of support by US consumers who chose to buy millions of foreign cars caused untold damage and market share loss. Can’t be debated, sorry.

These two things were a death sentence, death is occurring, end of mystery.

Jesus Christ could have been running these companies and we’d still face the eventuality these two conditions created.

[Rt.66]

Allen, so GMs successes are dumb luck and their woes are a direct result of poor management? That’s convenient. I hope people don’t apply those standards to your work.

Also, and again…. that’s debatable.

This really is not, if you are being rational:

1) The $4k per car trade policy gift/advantage that Japan and Korea have enjoyed over us is real, unfair and unfightable over the long run.

2) Lack of support by US consumers who chose to buy millions of foreign cars caused untold damage and market share loss. Can’t be debated, sorry.

These two things were a death sentence, death is occurring, end of mystery.

Jesus Christ could have been running these companies and we’d still face the eventuality these two conditions created.

[Rt.66]

Allen, so GMs successes are dumb luck and their woes are a direct result of poor management? That’s convenient. I hope people don’t apply those standards to your work.

Also, and again…. that’s debatable.

This really is not, if you are being rational:

1) The $4k per car trade policy gift/advantage that Japan and Korea have enjoyed over us is real, unfair and unfightable over the long run.

2) Lack of support by US consumers who chose to buy millions of foreign cars caused untold damage and market share loss. Can’t be debated, sorry.

These two things were a death sentence, death is occurring, end of mystery.

Jesus Christ could have been running these companies and we’d still face the eventuality these two conditions created.

[Rt.66]

Allen, so GMs successes are dumb luck and their woes are a direct result of poor management? That’s convenient. I hope people don’t apply those standards to your work.

Also, and again…. that’s debatable.

This really is not, if you are being rational:

1) The $4k per car trade policy gift/advantage that Japan and Korea have enjoyed over us is real, unfair and unfightable over the long run.

2) Lack of support by US consumers who chose to buy millions of foreign cars caused untold damage and market share loss. Can’t be debated, sorry.

These two things were a death sentence, death is occurring, end of mystery.

Jesus Christ could have been running these companies and we’d still face the eventuality these two conditions created.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=Rt.66]Allen, so GMs successes are dumb luck and their woes are a direct result of poor management? That’s convenient. I hope people don’t apply those standards to your work.

Also, and again…. that’s debatable.

This really is not, if you are being rational:

1) The $4k per car trade policy gift/advantage that Japan and Korea have enjoyed over us is real, unfair and unfightable over the long run.

2) Lack of support by US consumers who chose to buy millions of foreign cars caused untold damage and market share loss. Can’t be debated, sorry.

These two things were a death sentence, death is occurring, end of mystery.

Jesus Christ could have been running these companies and we’d still face the eventuality these two conditions created.
[/quote]

Rt.66: Nope, I wasn’t saying that, either. Again, there are multiple factors in here, some are contributory and some are primary/motive.

The loss of faith amongst American consumers did NOT happen by accident. There was a long period of time that GM, Ford and Mopar just didn’t seem to give a shit about what people wanted and the Japanese were doing a damn good job of trying to fill that need.

I’ll give you a good example. I used to drive one hell of a hot rod: A black 1969 Mach I with gray racing stripes and a built-to-the-hilt 428 CobraJet motor (it was built up from a 4 bolt main Ford Police Interceptor block and, when all was said and done, was putting about 500 ft lbs of torque onto the pavement).

This car, to me, represents the best that Detroit ever built: Fast, reliable and gorgeous. I used to go out on Foothill Expressway behind Stanford and go “Porschie hunting” (all of the newly minted “Apple Assholes” drove the same frickin’ Porsche 911s and I’d go jolly stomp them).

The 240/260/280z models that were on the road at that time were cannon fodder for everyone driving American muscle or high end German. But… They got better, year after year, until you wind up with Toyota Celica Supras and Nissan twin turbo 300zs and 350zs. These are cool cars, even for a big-block American muscle fan like me.

It’s a sad fact that the same people that gave us the 427SOHC motor and the Boss 302 and the Mach I also gave us the Mach II and that Godawful little six banger. The same folks that gave us the 426 Hemi and the 440 Magnum and the Cuda and Charger RT (and, no, RT doesn’t stand for Road and Track, it stands for RAPID TRANSIT, just ask any true Mopar fan) also gave us the fucking K Car.

We lost the handle and are only recently getting it back with the Mustang GT500 and new Camaro (and I like this one, I do) and the Corvette Z06. But we spent too long in the wilderness and the competition first caught up and then passed us.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=Rt.66]Allen, so GMs successes are dumb luck and their woes are a direct result of poor management? That’s convenient. I hope people don’t apply those standards to your work.

Also, and again…. that’s debatable.

This really is not, if you are being rational:

1) The $4k per car trade policy gift/advantage that Japan and Korea have enjoyed over us is real, unfair and unfightable over the long run.

2) Lack of support by US consumers who chose to buy millions of foreign cars caused untold damage and market share loss. Can’t be debated, sorry.

These two things were a death sentence, death is occurring, end of mystery.

Jesus Christ could have been running these companies and we’d still face the eventuality these two conditions created.
[/quote]

Rt.66: Nope, I wasn’t saying that, either. Again, there are multiple factors in here, some are contributory and some are primary/motive.

The loss of faith amongst American consumers did NOT happen by accident. There was a long period of time that GM, Ford and Mopar just didn’t seem to give a shit about what people wanted and the Japanese were doing a damn good job of trying to fill that need.

I’ll give you a good example. I used to drive one hell of a hot rod: A black 1969 Mach I with gray racing stripes and a built-to-the-hilt 428 CobraJet motor (it was built up from a 4 bolt main Ford Police Interceptor block and, when all was said and done, was putting about 500 ft lbs of torque onto the pavement).

This car, to me, represents the best that Detroit ever built: Fast, reliable and gorgeous. I used to go out on Foothill Expressway behind Stanford and go “Porschie hunting” (all of the newly minted “Apple Assholes” drove the same frickin’ Porsche 911s and I’d go jolly stomp them).

The 240/260/280z models that were on the road at that time were cannon fodder for everyone driving American muscle or high end German. But… They got better, year after year, until you wind up with Toyota Celica Supras and Nissan twin turbo 300zs and 350zs. These are cool cars, even for a big-block American muscle fan like me.

It’s a sad fact that the same people that gave us the 427SOHC motor and the Boss 302 and the Mach I also gave us the Mach II and that Godawful little six banger. The same folks that gave us the 426 Hemi and the 440 Magnum and the Cuda and Charger RT (and, no, RT doesn’t stand for Road and Track, it stands for RAPID TRANSIT, just ask any true Mopar fan) also gave us the fucking K Car.

We lost the handle and are only recently getting it back with the Mustang GT500 and new Camaro (and I like this one, I do) and the Corvette Z06. But we spent too long in the wilderness and the competition first caught up and then passed us.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=Rt.66]Allen, so GMs successes are dumb luck and their woes are a direct result of poor management? That’s convenient. I hope people don’t apply those standards to your work.

Also, and again…. that’s debatable.

This really is not, if you are being rational:

1) The $4k per car trade policy gift/advantage that Japan and Korea have enjoyed over us is real, unfair and unfightable over the long run.

2) Lack of support by US consumers who chose to buy millions of foreign cars caused untold damage and market share loss. Can’t be debated, sorry.

These two things were a death sentence, death is occurring, end of mystery.

Jesus Christ could have been running these companies and we’d still face the eventuality these two conditions created.
[/quote]

Rt.66: Nope, I wasn’t saying that, either. Again, there are multiple factors in here, some are contributory and some are primary/motive.

The loss of faith amongst American consumers did NOT happen by accident. There was a long period of time that GM, Ford and Mopar just didn’t seem to give a shit about what people wanted and the Japanese were doing a damn good job of trying to fill that need.

I’ll give you a good example. I used to drive one hell of a hot rod: A black 1969 Mach I with gray racing stripes and a built-to-the-hilt 428 CobraJet motor (it was built up from a 4 bolt main Ford Police Interceptor block and, when all was said and done, was putting about 500 ft lbs of torque onto the pavement).

This car, to me, represents the best that Detroit ever built: Fast, reliable and gorgeous. I used to go out on Foothill Expressway behind Stanford and go “Porschie hunting” (all of the newly minted “Apple Assholes” drove the same frickin’ Porsche 911s and I’d go jolly stomp them).

The 240/260/280z models that were on the road at that time were cannon fodder for everyone driving American muscle or high end German. But… They got better, year after year, until you wind up with Toyota Celica Supras and Nissan twin turbo 300zs and 350zs. These are cool cars, even for a big-block American muscle fan like me.

It’s a sad fact that the same people that gave us the 427SOHC motor and the Boss 302 and the Mach I also gave us the Mach II and that Godawful little six banger. The same folks that gave us the 426 Hemi and the 440 Magnum and the Cuda and Charger RT (and, no, RT doesn’t stand for Road and Track, it stands for RAPID TRANSIT, just ask any true Mopar fan) also gave us the fucking K Car.

We lost the handle and are only recently getting it back with the Mustang GT500 and new Camaro (and I like this one, I do) and the Corvette Z06. But we spent too long in the wilderness and the competition first caught up and then passed us.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=Rt.66]Allen, so GMs successes are dumb luck and their woes are a direct result of poor management? That’s convenient. I hope people don’t apply those standards to your work.

Also, and again…. that’s debatable.

This really is not, if you are being rational:

1) The $4k per car trade policy gift/advantage that Japan and Korea have enjoyed over us is real, unfair and unfightable over the long run.

2) Lack of support by US consumers who chose to buy millions of foreign cars caused untold damage and market share loss. Can’t be debated, sorry.

These two things were a death sentence, death is occurring, end of mystery.

Jesus Christ could have been running these companies and we’d still face the eventuality these two conditions created.
[/quote]

Rt.66: Nope, I wasn’t saying that, either. Again, there are multiple factors in here, some are contributory and some are primary/motive.

The loss of faith amongst American consumers did NOT happen by accident. There was a long period of time that GM, Ford and Mopar just didn’t seem to give a shit about what people wanted and the Japanese were doing a damn good job of trying to fill that need.

I’ll give you a good example. I used to drive one hell of a hot rod: A black 1969 Mach I with gray racing stripes and a built-to-the-hilt 428 CobraJet motor (it was built up from a 4 bolt main Ford Police Interceptor block and, when all was said and done, was putting about 500 ft lbs of torque onto the pavement).

This car, to me, represents the best that Detroit ever built: Fast, reliable and gorgeous. I used to go out on Foothill Expressway behind Stanford and go “Porschie hunting” (all of the newly minted “Apple Assholes” drove the same frickin’ Porsche 911s and I’d go jolly stomp them).

The 240/260/280z models that were on the road at that time were cannon fodder for everyone driving American muscle or high end German. But… They got better, year after year, until you wind up with Toyota Celica Supras and Nissan twin turbo 300zs and 350zs. These are cool cars, even for a big-block American muscle fan like me.

It’s a sad fact that the same people that gave us the 427SOHC motor and the Boss 302 and the Mach I also gave us the Mach II and that Godawful little six banger. The same folks that gave us the 426 Hemi and the 440 Magnum and the Cuda and Charger RT (and, no, RT doesn’t stand for Road and Track, it stands for RAPID TRANSIT, just ask any true Mopar fan) also gave us the fucking K Car.

We lost the handle and are only recently getting it back with the Mustang GT500 and new Camaro (and I like this one, I do) and the Corvette Z06. But we spent too long in the wilderness and the competition first caught up and then passed us.

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