The world as seem by my students

[kewp]

On outsourcing,

Much of the foreign work is pretty crappy (their schools are *way* behind ours and less folks can afford to buy their own tools to become self taught). Many businesses are finding this out the hard way and hiring locally again. The timezone/language issues are also a pain.

And of course, ultimately, the more work that gets outsourced, the higher demand for foreign engineers and the less cheap they become.

There will always be a demand, domestically, for good local talent.

[Anonymous]

juice, you are right. I work in the defense industry and we can’t outsource because of the clearances you mentioned. Yes, Lou Dobbs did my profession a huge injustice when he scared everyone into believing that all these jobs were being outsourced. My company has an average age of 49. Almost 35% of my engineering staff will retire within 5 years. Where will I get the engineers to replace them?

I went to an Engineering Quality meeting a few months ago and ran into one of my old professors. He was asking me advice on how he can convince more students into the field, he is seeing his classes shrink each year. It’s disappointing that we have such great opportunities in science fields but students would rather get easier degrees.

[matula]

It also has become longer and much harder to get people
with secret clearances especially after 9/11. The process
of getting cleared has definitely lengthened. It used to take a few months now it can take years and years.

[blahblahblah]

Much of the foreign work is pretty crappy (their schools are *way* behind ours and less folks can afford to buy their own tools to become self taught).

Ever heard of IIT? Probably the best engineering school on Earth, and IIT grads are some of the world’s biggest movers and shakers. IIT applicants who can’t quite make the cut frequently end up at MIT and Stanford. There are excellent engineering schools all over the world, not just in the US.

The reason Americans aren’t applying to engineering or CS programs like they used to isn’t because they are lazy or stupid. It’s because those jobs are perceived as being difficult, not lucrative and lacking in prestige and security. Again, there is no shortage of American medical school applicants, and everyone knows how tough medical school is. The reality is slightly different of course, engineering can be very lucrative, especially for those with a lot of experience. The problem is mainly one of perception. Almost every day in the media, there’s a story about engineering jobs being outsourced to India or China. Americans (despite their reputation) aren’t stupid and when they read these stories over and over again, when they see their parents getting laid off, they won’t choose that profession.

Keep on telling yourself that some jobs are safe from outsourcing. Pathology and radiology work are being outsourced. Legal work, actuarial work, pretty much any professional job can be outsourced now. Doing laundry? Picking strawberries? Mowing the grass? You might be safe.

[kev374]

The problem with Software Engineering in India is that there is a tremendous shortage of good people just like anywhere else in the world. The good people in India are so in demand that they are just picked up immediately by the giants – Infosys, Wipro, TCS, Microsoft, Oracle etc. The smaller American companies don’t stand a chance, they have to hire the leftovers who tend to be inexperienced (6mos to 1yr) and with poor educational foundations.

India may be home to IIT, BiTs etc. which are really good schools but only a fraction go to these institutions. Most engineering curriculums are dated and the quality of teaching is substandard. Because of the boom there is such an urgency to churn out graduates in huge numbers that the quality takes a back seat. There is also the fact that many are attracted to this profession not due to true passion for developing software but rather because it’s lucrative.

India is experiencing what the US experienced during the .com era, where if you knew how to surf the web you got a $80-100k job!!

NASSCOM (the Indian equivalent of IEEE) recently released a report that stated that only 25% of Engineering grads per year are “employable” due to poor technical ability and also other soft skills. In my opinion, India will face huge hurdles in coming years due to a shortage of *useable* talent.

[ucodegen]

Ever heard of IIT? Probably the best engineering school on Earth, and IIT grads are some of the world’s biggest movers and shakers. IIT applicants who can’t quite make the cut frequently end up at MIT and Stanford.

Actually it is the other way around. If they can’t make it at Stanford/Cornell/MIT, there is a good chance of getting in at IIT. One advantage IIT has, from the corporate viewpoint, is that IIT teaches more directly to application. Not much theory is taught. While this allows the graduate to apply the knowledge quicker, it also hinders them later if they move into strict R&D. That being said, teaching direct to application allows an educated workforce who are desired by companies looking to relocate parts of their operations to cheaper locales (part of why IIT was formed in the first place). Several IIT graduates actually do follow on to higher education at Standford/Cornell/MIT.

NOTE: By ‘educated workforce’, I don’t mean corporate drones. The top graduates have very similar qualities to top graduates of U.S. undergraduate colleges (which is why they can transfer to Standford/Cornell/MIT for graduate studies).

Effectively IIT makes a good undergrad college for Indian nationals, allowing transfer to Standford/Cornell/MIT for graduate studies.

[ucodegen]

Americans (despite their reputation) aren’t stupid….

I go back and forth on this.. I see something like this
http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2007/03/sub1000_spectrograph.html

and I would agree.. Then I see things like this..
http://www.iamfacingforeclosure.com/
http://cityrag.blogs.com/main/2006/02/kentucky_fried_.html
and of course the people on Jerry Springer….

After which I would have to say they are extremely stupid.

I think the truth is that Americans span the gamut. We have very bright and very stupid.. Not much in between, and the media seems to make fun of the bright and idolize the stupid. This does not help the motivation for a highschooler debating whether to sneak out and party or stay in and work on the homework..

[surveyor]

points

The reason Americans aren’t applying to engineering or CS programs like they used to isn’t because they are lazy or stupid. It’s because those jobs are perceived as being difficult, not lucrative and lacking in prestige and security.

Isn’t that the definition of lazy, when you don’t pursue something difficult that is lacking in prestige and security? And you’re saying increasing the pay will change that? Not true. By your reasoning, high-paying jobs should have high enrollments in their university majors. That is not the case.

The easiest branch of engineering is civil. It has the highest enrollment. Why? Because it is considered the easiest. Civil engineering is among the lowest paid of the engineers that the supply meets the demand (one could say that there is more supply than demand).

Also, to draw on the illegal immigration component, saying that if you pay Americans more to pick lettuce that Americans will show up, that is not true either. I talk to landscapers who have a hard time hiring even though they pay very high wages (in excess of $20/hr.). They cannot keep an “American” on staff. (sidebar: does this mean I want open borders? no, but I don’t believe paying more will make someone necessary want to work).

IIT applicants who can’t quite make the cut frequently end up at MIT and Stanford.

Interesting perception. I would argue they make the cut at MIT and Stanford because we don’t have enough good quality students here to go to those universities.

Keep on telling yourself that some jobs are safe from outsourcing. Pathology and radiology work are being outsourced.

I believe the claim was not saying that engineering jobs were safe from outsourcing. The claim is that they are MORE safe from outsourcing because of several factors – language, quality control, and the ability to manage. Maybe for jobs that are somewhat “soft” in skills (like call centers) these can be outsourced and they can see a cost savings. However, from the companies I’ve seen try to use outsourcing to address complicated professions, like ENGINEERING, there is a furious communication problem. Try explaining to a guy over the telephone or even a tele-conference that you want certain designs implemented. I’ve seen it done. It usually ends up costing less to hire someone here. These are the limits of outsourcing.

I will not argue that outsourcing makes things here in the U.S. difficult, but the world is changing and you have to be able to change with it. Should you just give up just because your job has a 10% chance of being outsourced? Should we just give up hope altogether? No, we should make ourselves better than everyone else and look for opportunities whenever we can. And the other posts here have shown that despite outsourcing, there is a lot of opportunity that still exists. If you’re talented, good at your job, you’ll find and make your opportunities.

[Anonymous]

Most high school students likely consider engineering boring, and have been told that these jobs are being outsourced, that many were lost during the dot com crash, that they pay well but quickly level off, and that the schooling is difficult. Do they avoid it soley because it is difficult – of course not. Law school is very difficult, and yet there is no shortage of aspiring law students out there. There is truly a disconnect between actual and perceived career opportunities for engineers, just as there is a disconnect in the other direction between the perception and reality of the glamor, prestige and pay of lawyers.

Many, many careers will be outsourced, but I can say with near absolute certainty that if you were to become a doctor or an RN you would be in a safe and high paying career. If you are an engineer with experience in sales, I have all the faith in the world that you will be safe and well paid. Army officers and government workers are also very safe, unless we outsource our military to mercenaries:)

The big question is not whether there will still be lucrative careers for those who pursue in demand careers and are adaptable, but whether we will still have a middle class at the end of the day. One argument says that 2 billion new customers will stimulate new job growth here, new opportunities, and that as a nation we will just have to find new areas of expertise. The other argument says that every piece of pie eaten by a guy in India is a piece taken away from an American. It makes sense to me that as these countries rise and their citizens gain wealth, the pie will actual grow larger so that we can all eat more of it.

However, there are many limited, scarce resources on this planet like land, oil, etc. that will not grow. Newly emboldened countries like India and China will fight for access to these resources, fight for greater political power in the world, and fight to assert their position as leaders among nations. These pursuits will have to result in a net loss for those currently in power, namely America, Europeans and others to a lesser extent. It is a certainty that the environment will be a great loser as well. Let us hope that this monster of global capitalism that we have created and spread to the far corners of the earth does not usher in a new century where we are outcompeted and sent into decline. With rapidly falling European populations, our own internal struggles and these rising giants of countries, let us hope that this century does not become known as the century of the decline of America and the fall of Europe.

[kev374]

It makes sense to me that as these countries rise and their citizens gain wealth, the pie will actual grow larger so that we can all eat more of it.

I doubt the average American will benefit from outsourcing and the new demand by the burgeoning middle class in China and India. The only ones that will become rich are the top tier execs of the American corporations and the investors. That is the true reason they are there, they want to establish the brands and reap in the profits.

However, the future is hard to predict. India has extremely poor infrastructure. I’ve been to Bangalore many times and know this first hand. It takes 2 hrs to go 10 miles and there are power cuts of 3-4hrs each day which require expensive alternative power sources. Just few weeks ago there were riots in Bangalore and our India SW development team could not work for 2 days causing downtime!! We also sometimes have issues that require immediate resolution when staff in India is sleeping, it has to be done here in the US to avoid business losses.

Another issue is severe wage inflation of 13-15% a year and heavy workforce attrition. When an employee leaves they take the business domain knowledge they have gained with them and someone else has to start from scratch, this is not good for a company.

While it is easy to offshore entry level software development functions, complex Business Analysis and architecture is not that easy to develop abroad. We live in a very dynamic environment where the business rules change fast, for many companies time to market has to be low for survival. Many companies are realizing this and therefore choosing to keep those functions in the US itself.

[kewp]

“Ever heard of IIT? Probably the best engineering school on Earth, and IIT grads are some of the world’s biggest movers and shakers. IIT applicants who can’t quite make the cut frequently end up at MIT and Stanford. There are excellent engineering schools all over the world, not just in the US.”

Sure have! Worked with a few grads at AT&T and Bell Labs. Until recently, the majority of them were emigrating to the states. Was quite the scandal in India, as its a state-funded uni!

While it is indeed a great school, world-class in fact, it still can’t compare to our domestic educational offerings. It’s like rolling a few of our top engineering schools into one giant institution and closing everything else except for the community colleges.

Beyond that, the IIT grads are either moving out of india, or demanding salaries that are not attractive to western companies looking for dirt cheap labour.

My personal opinion of the current dearth of engineering students is that its simply due to economics. Why bother investing in four-six years of intense school work in order to get a grueling engineering gig? That starts at less than 100k to boot?

Especially when you can become a realtor with literally only hours of prep work and then make 10k a week selling houses from one flipper to another. Not to mention the dozen or so investment properties you have on the side, paid for with low-interest/no money down loans.

[CostaMesa]

Engineers have little opportunity to rise into jobs that are sufficiently ‘sexy’ for today’s addled youth. Go talk to the kids, that’s what they’ll tell you.

Why are there 20X as many business majors than engineers and 100X as many law students? Because those professions are where the money is for the superstars. When a kid has already figured out that they’re not going to be the next Michael Jordan, Cindy Crawford or Jim Carrey, then they’ve got to figure out another path to that goal of superstardom. Following in Ken Lay’s footsteps seems like a good idea to lots of these dreamers. (this is the future of America!!!)

I went back for a masters in engineering last year. There were 3 American students and 32 foreign students in the incoming class. Of the 32, two were from Europe and the rest were from India, Taiwan or China.

America is doomed long-term. Our populace is filled with far too many fat/dumb/ignorant people who feel entitled to a phat salary and all the perks without ever trying, because they see so many others getting that for nothing.

As long as we believe in the lottery, nothing will change.

[Raybyrnes]

I have fmaily members in Ireland who are making a killing as engineers and managers of IT teams. Additionally thery are seeing an Influx of American IT professionals who ahve figured out that you have to go where the money is at. Right now Ireland is booming. If I were an enginneer I would be exploring overseas opportunities.

[startingout]

Half of my family are in Ireland, as well. Not only is my brother-in-law engineer making absolutely loads of money, even relatives who work in other traditionally not-so-lucrative jobs (nannies and receptionists) have salaries and perks that are unheard of in the U.S. I know that for my particular profession, my starting salary in Ireland would be almost double what I make now (if you convert the Irish salary from Euros to dollars, and compare Irish wages in dollars to US wages in dollars). My husband made the same amount in Ireland working as a farm hand as he does here as a highly qualified rock crushing technician.

It’s not just Ireland’s engineering and IT sectors that are booming- it’s everything!

It’s true that cost of living is more expensive in Ireland (food, clothes, etc.), but their sky-high wages more than compensate for it.

And, at first glance, their housing market seems to be as ridiculously priced as ours. But then, take a look at the job boards (such as Irish Jobs.IE), and you’ll see that their wages are much more able to support their prices, while CA wages can in no way support CA prices.

The Irish have certainly gone through some absolutely terrible times, but for right now, it’s great to be a citizen of the Republic of Ireland.

[Cow_tipping]

IIT and MIT are not really competetors. There is no “if you cant get into MIT, you’d get into IIT”. Here is why …
MIT under grad is for students who will be able to pay up and study there and usually limited to students in the US.
IIT is only for students in India and you need to write an entrance exam or be a Government nominee (AKA son of a govt big wig and there are only like 10-15 seats in the pool of 3000) and be a graduate of a 12 year education not counting kindergarden including math, physics and chemistry and be under 21 years of age. I dont know of how many students will be considering this or that, not many I can assure you. Maybe a miniscule 1-2 a year.
IIT undergrad courses teach a lot of theory and some of it very obscure and irrelevant. So much so that they are usually deemed fit only for research, Saying they dont know how to hold a wrench. Also an undergrad course was 175 credits as opposed to the 120 that is standard in US. They like to breed book worms.
Cool.
Cow_tipping.

[Author]

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