Terrorism

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=afx114][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Praying for God’s mercy and protection as a Christian is not the same as seeking God’s blessing to kill my enemies[/quote]

I understand this as the case Allan, but would the person dying at the hands of a soldier? If the last thing they saw was a cross hanging from the neck of their killer, what would they think? Is it really any different than a Christian hearing “Allahu Akbar” as his last words?

The point I’m trying to make is that how these symbols are interpreted depends entirely on where you’re coming from. So while hearing “Allahu Akbar” as you die is certainly a horrible thing for a Christian, so too is dying at the hands of a cross-bearing Christian for a Muslim — regardless of intent.[/quote]

Afx: As much as I’d like to disagree with you on this, I can’t. I’m reminded of German soldiers in WWI wearing belt buckles reading “Gott mit uns” (“God is with us”) as they invaded Belgium and then France in 1914.

Hitler repeatedly invoked God, and Germany’s “divine” mission (which, I guess, included killing all the Jews, Gypsies, Slavs and mentally handicapped). Of course, Hitler also admitted privately that he did this solely to engage the German people and didn’t really believe it himself.

One of my COs was a hard shell Baptist who loved Jesus, and hated Communism (I hated Communism, too, but not as a Catholic, but as an American) as a result. This was the same guy that kicked off operations with the expression, “Let’s go break things and hurt people”.

War, by its nature, is a filthy, nasty business and between trying to get soldiers to kill and rationalizing that same killing, pretty much anything goes in the “motivational” department. As a Catholic and an American, I’m alternately horrified and proud of those two histories. But both the Mother Church and the US Government are made up of people and thus flawed and fallible. Just like I am.[/quote]

Okay.
Are you or are you not a great big heeb?

You know they can’t go to heaven, right?

In all seriousness, I don’t pretend to understand the personal moral calculus of joining a volunteer army in a time of peace and then becoming a combatant who (necessarily) is called upon to kill humans.

While we all have our price, it would take quite a bit to get me to go that route.

Still, I am thankful that there are people with guns that protect my rights.

[Arraya]

[quote=Russell]Apparently Hasan switched sides. One Obvious possibility is that some lasting fear about the inclusion of Muslims in this country and especially the Military, could come from it. Along with this comes the fear of unwarranted discrimination and other reprisals Muslims must have in the U.S., including in the military . It has probably brought on more fear of reprisals than anything else.
It is possible that those who want an immediate and high profile public conclusion that Hassan was a terrorist may not get satisfaction based on sensitivities to these points. My feeling is that the restraint is good.[/quote]

Hasan’s story is one of slow mental degradation to self-justified psychopathic behavior. A psychiatrist that listened to war trauma stories for years. He actually gave presentations on how muslims should be allowed to leave the military while he was asking to leave, over and over again. Really he was just having HUMAN feelings in a inhumane spot which he perverted to religious feelings. He was begging to get out for years. He told them that he could not handle it. This is not an uncommon story for people of any faith under times of mental duress. A Sgt. named John Russell just killed five mental health workers after being deployed on his third tour a few months ago. This is not something that gets headline news, however a similar story as Hasan’s.

As for many people, as their mental stability weakens cling to something familiar which in his case was his religion.

He needed to find justification for his feelings and in Islam he found it. Hearing about the evils of war on a daily basis from PTSD patients is bound to effect anybody.

This is not a terrorism story. This is a tragedy of war, story. However, the terrorism story is a moral booster for our ME incursion and the other story would degrade moral.

Apparently their were other people involved according to multiple early reports. Now, they could be incorrect but they could easily be true. Because the military would not want it to get out that their were multiple people refusing to be deployed and flipping out, especially if they were white christians.

Then it would be a story of mutiny in the ranks which most could rationally understand if the military would be acquiescent to the terrorist story and actively cover up the other.

The reason why this story is headlines around the globe is the same reason that the John Russell story is buried. For emotionally manipulative purposes.

Now look at Surveyor’s rationale. I propose that he is under a similar psychosis as Hasan. After 6 years of war and many deaths in the ME he needs justification for what he is seeing. Whether it be nationalist or religious, which really are two sides of the same tribal coin, he needs muslim “terrorism” to feel justified. He needs every muslim to be a terrorist because he is human just like everybody else and hundreds of thousand deaths with the toll still rising, you need the enemy to be as vile and inhuman as possible to justify our collective acceptance of our military’s actions. Just as Hasan transferred his mental anguish to making the US military evil, Surveyor transfers his feelings to making all muslims evil.

Hasan, not being able to transfer is feeling to all muslims be evil, because he is one, diverted them in the other direction to all infidels being evil. He was very astute with his presentation in acknowledging the Muslims should be let go out of the military because of this. The army should have listened.

What the media framing of this story is about, at the deepest level, is helping people(us citizens) with human feelings to justify inhumane things(killing millions of innocents), just as Hasan did with his faith.

[Arraya]

[quote=Russell]Apparently Hasan switched sides. One Obvious possibility is that some lasting fear about the inclusion of Muslims in this country and especially the Military, could come from it. Along with this comes the fear of unwarranted discrimination and other reprisals Muslims must have in the U.S., including in the military . It has probably brought on more fear of reprisals than anything else.
It is possible that those who want an immediate and high profile public conclusion that Hassan was a terrorist may not get satisfaction based on sensitivities to these points. My feeling is that the restraint is good.[/quote]

Hasan’s story is one of slow mental degradation to self-justified psychopathic behavior. A psychiatrist that listened to war trauma stories for years. He actually gave presentations on how muslims should be allowed to leave the military while he was asking to leave, over and over again. Really he was just having HUMAN feelings in a inhumane spot which he perverted to religious feelings. He was begging to get out for years. He told them that he could not handle it. This is not an uncommon story for people of any faith under times of mental duress. A Sgt. named John Russell just killed five mental health workers after being deployed on his third tour a few months ago. This is not something that gets headline news, however a similar story as Hasan’s.

As for many people, as their mental stability weakens cling to something familiar which in his case was his religion.

He needed to find justification for his feelings and in Islam he found it. Hearing about the evils of war on a daily basis from PTSD patients is bound to effect anybody.

This is not a terrorism story. This is a tragedy of war, story. However, the terrorism story is a moral booster for our ME incursion and the other story would degrade moral.

Apparently their were other people involved according to multiple early reports. Now, they could be incorrect but they could easily be true. Because the military would not want it to get out that their were multiple people refusing to be deployed and flipping out, especially if they were white christians.

Then it would be a story of mutiny in the ranks which most could rationally understand if the military would be acquiescent to the terrorist story and actively cover up the other.

The reason why this story is headlines around the globe is the same reason that the John Russell story is buried. For emotionally manipulative purposes.

Now look at Surveyor’s rationale. I propose that he is under a similar psychosis as Hasan. After 6 years of war and many deaths in the ME he needs justification for what he is seeing. Whether it be nationalist or religious, which really are two sides of the same tribal coin, he needs muslim “terrorism” to feel justified. He needs every muslim to be a terrorist because he is human just like everybody else and hundreds of thousand deaths with the toll still rising, you need the enemy to be as vile and inhuman as possible to justify our collective acceptance of our military’s actions. Just as Hasan transferred his mental anguish to making the US military evil, Surveyor transfers his feelings to making all muslims evil.

Hasan, not being able to transfer is feeling to all muslims be evil, because he is one, diverted them in the other direction to all infidels being evil. He was very astute with his presentation in acknowledging the Muslims should be let go out of the military because of this. The army should have listened.

What the media framing of this story is about, at the deepest level, is helping people(us citizens) with human feelings to justify inhumane things(killing millions of innocents), just as Hasan did with his faith.

[Arraya]

[quote=Russell]Apparently Hasan switched sides. One Obvious possibility is that some lasting fear about the inclusion of Muslims in this country and especially the Military, could come from it. Along with this comes the fear of unwarranted discrimination and other reprisals Muslims must have in the U.S., including in the military . It has probably brought on more fear of reprisals than anything else.
It is possible that those who want an immediate and high profile public conclusion that Hassan was a terrorist may not get satisfaction based on sensitivities to these points. My feeling is that the restraint is good.[/quote]

Hasan’s story is one of slow mental degradation to self-justified psychopathic behavior. A psychiatrist that listened to war trauma stories for years. He actually gave presentations on how muslims should be allowed to leave the military while he was asking to leave, over and over again. Really he was just having HUMAN feelings in a inhumane spot which he perverted to religious feelings. He was begging to get out for years. He told them that he could not handle it. This is not an uncommon story for people of any faith under times of mental duress. A Sgt. named John Russell just killed five mental health workers after being deployed on his third tour a few months ago. This is not something that gets headline news, however a similar story as Hasan’s.

As for many people, as their mental stability weakens cling to something familiar which in his case was his religion.

He needed to find justification for his feelings and in Islam he found it. Hearing about the evils of war on a daily basis from PTSD patients is bound to effect anybody.

This is not a terrorism story. This is a tragedy of war, story. However, the terrorism story is a moral booster for our ME incursion and the other story would degrade moral.

Apparently their were other people involved according to multiple early reports. Now, they could be incorrect but they could easily be true. Because the military would not want it to get out that their were multiple people refusing to be deployed and flipping out, especially if they were white christians.

Then it would be a story of mutiny in the ranks which most could rationally understand if the military would be acquiescent to the terrorist story and actively cover up the other.

The reason why this story is headlines around the globe is the same reason that the John Russell story is buried. For emotionally manipulative purposes.

Now look at Surveyor’s rationale. I propose that he is under a similar psychosis as Hasan. After 6 years of war and many deaths in the ME he needs justification for what he is seeing. Whether it be nationalist or religious, which really are two sides of the same tribal coin, he needs muslim “terrorism” to feel justified. He needs every muslim to be a terrorist because he is human just like everybody else and hundreds of thousand deaths with the toll still rising, you need the enemy to be as vile and inhuman as possible to justify our collective acceptance of our military’s actions. Just as Hasan transferred his mental anguish to making the US military evil, Surveyor transfers his feelings to making all muslims evil.

Hasan, not being able to transfer is feeling to all muslims be evil, because he is one, diverted them in the other direction to all infidels being evil. He was very astute with his presentation in acknowledging the Muslims should be let go out of the military because of this. The army should have listened.

What the media framing of this story is about, at the deepest level, is helping people(us citizens) with human feelings to justify inhumane things(killing millions of innocents), just as Hasan did with his faith.

[Arraya]

[quote=Russell]Apparently Hasan switched sides. One Obvious possibility is that some lasting fear about the inclusion of Muslims in this country and especially the Military, could come from it. Along with this comes the fear of unwarranted discrimination and other reprisals Muslims must have in the U.S., including in the military . It has probably brought on more fear of reprisals than anything else.
It is possible that those who want an immediate and high profile public conclusion that Hassan was a terrorist may not get satisfaction based on sensitivities to these points. My feeling is that the restraint is good.[/quote]

Hasan’s story is one of slow mental degradation to self-justified psychopathic behavior. A psychiatrist that listened to war trauma stories for years. He actually gave presentations on how muslims should be allowed to leave the military while he was asking to leave, over and over again. Really he was just having HUMAN feelings in a inhumane spot which he perverted to religious feelings. He was begging to get out for years. He told them that he could not handle it. This is not an uncommon story for people of any faith under times of mental duress. A Sgt. named John Russell just killed five mental health workers after being deployed on his third tour a few months ago. This is not something that gets headline news, however a similar story as Hasan’s.

As for many people, as their mental stability weakens cling to something familiar which in his case was his religion.

He needed to find justification for his feelings and in Islam he found it. Hearing about the evils of war on a daily basis from PTSD patients is bound to effect anybody.

This is not a terrorism story. This is a tragedy of war, story. However, the terrorism story is a moral booster for our ME incursion and the other story would degrade moral.

Apparently their were other people involved according to multiple early reports. Now, they could be incorrect but they could easily be true. Because the military would not want it to get out that their were multiple people refusing to be deployed and flipping out, especially if they were white christians.

Then it would be a story of mutiny in the ranks which most could rationally understand if the military would be acquiescent to the terrorist story and actively cover up the other.

The reason why this story is headlines around the globe is the same reason that the John Russell story is buried. For emotionally manipulative purposes.

Now look at Surveyor’s rationale. I propose that he is under a similar psychosis as Hasan. After 6 years of war and many deaths in the ME he needs justification for what he is seeing. Whether it be nationalist or religious, which really are two sides of the same tribal coin, he needs muslim “terrorism” to feel justified. He needs every muslim to be a terrorist because he is human just like everybody else and hundreds of thousand deaths with the toll still rising, you need the enemy to be as vile and inhuman as possible to justify our collective acceptance of our military’s actions. Just as Hasan transferred his mental anguish to making the US military evil, Surveyor transfers his feelings to making all muslims evil.

Hasan, not being able to transfer is feeling to all muslims be evil, because he is one, diverted them in the other direction to all infidels being evil. He was very astute with his presentation in acknowledging the Muslims should be let go out of the military because of this. The army should have listened.

What the media framing of this story is about, at the deepest level, is helping people(us citizens) with human feelings to justify inhumane things(killing millions of innocents), just as Hasan did with his faith.

[Arraya]

[quote=Russell]Apparently Hasan switched sides. One Obvious possibility is that some lasting fear about the inclusion of Muslims in this country and especially the Military, could come from it. Along with this comes the fear of unwarranted discrimination and other reprisals Muslims must have in the U.S., including in the military . It has probably brought on more fear of reprisals than anything else.
It is possible that those who want an immediate and high profile public conclusion that Hassan was a terrorist may not get satisfaction based on sensitivities to these points. My feeling is that the restraint is good.[/quote]

Hasan’s story is one of slow mental degradation to self-justified psychopathic behavior. A psychiatrist that listened to war trauma stories for years. He actually gave presentations on how muslims should be allowed to leave the military while he was asking to leave, over and over again. Really he was just having HUMAN feelings in a inhumane spot which he perverted to religious feelings. He was begging to get out for years. He told them that he could not handle it. This is not an uncommon story for people of any faith under times of mental duress. A Sgt. named John Russell just killed five mental health workers after being deployed on his third tour a few months ago. This is not something that gets headline news, however a similar story as Hasan’s.

As for many people, as their mental stability weakens cling to something familiar which in his case was his religion.

He needed to find justification for his feelings and in Islam he found it. Hearing about the evils of war on a daily basis from PTSD patients is bound to effect anybody.

This is not a terrorism story. This is a tragedy of war, story. However, the terrorism story is a moral booster for our ME incursion and the other story would degrade moral.

Apparently their were other people involved according to multiple early reports. Now, they could be incorrect but they could easily be true. Because the military would not want it to get out that their were multiple people refusing to be deployed and flipping out, especially if they were white christians.

Then it would be a story of mutiny in the ranks which most could rationally understand if the military would be acquiescent to the terrorist story and actively cover up the other.

The reason why this story is headlines around the globe is the same reason that the John Russell story is buried. For emotionally manipulative purposes.

Now look at Surveyor’s rationale. I propose that he is under a similar psychosis as Hasan. After 6 years of war and many deaths in the ME he needs justification for what he is seeing. Whether it be nationalist or religious, which really are two sides of the same tribal coin, he needs muslim “terrorism” to feel justified. He needs every muslim to be a terrorist because he is human just like everybody else and hundreds of thousand deaths with the toll still rising, you need the enemy to be as vile and inhuman as possible to justify our collective acceptance of our military’s actions. Just as Hasan transferred his mental anguish to making the US military evil, Surveyor transfers his feelings to making all muslims evil.

Hasan, not being able to transfer is feeling to all muslims be evil, because he is one, diverted them in the other direction to all infidels being evil. He was very astute with his presentation in acknowledging the Muslims should be let go out of the military because of this. The army should have listened.

What the media framing of this story is about, at the deepest level, is helping people(us citizens) with human feelings to justify inhumane things(killing millions of innocents), just as Hasan did with his faith.

[Anonymous]

So all it takes it two words uttered to make a terrorist? The same two words that most Muslims say every day in a variety of situations?

Grasping at straws.

During the Gulf War, I heard lots of prayers (some of them by Army Chaplains) asking for things like “the strength and courage to defeat our enemies” (and I was never even near combat). It never occurred to me that, had I actually killed an enemy, these prayers would have made me a terrorist.

All of this is beside the point. In order to be a terrorist you must target civilians. Don’t know why everyone is ignoring that fact. Let me repeat that: terrorists target civilians.

By definition, one cannot be a terrorist if they target uniformed military, no matter what the reason.

If Hasan was really playing for the other team, then it was an act of war. If he was a nutcase fed up with his life/job/situation (as I suspect), then it was murder. But what he said while he was shooting makes no difference.

[Anonymous]

So all it takes it two words uttered to make a terrorist? The same two words that most Muslims say every day in a variety of situations?

Grasping at straws.

During the Gulf War, I heard lots of prayers (some of them by Army Chaplains) asking for things like “the strength and courage to defeat our enemies” (and I was never even near combat). It never occurred to me that, had I actually killed an enemy, these prayers would have made me a terrorist.

All of this is beside the point. In order to be a terrorist you must target civilians. Don’t know why everyone is ignoring that fact. Let me repeat that: terrorists target civilians.

By definition, one cannot be a terrorist if they target uniformed military, no matter what the reason.

If Hasan was really playing for the other team, then it was an act of war. If he was a nutcase fed up with his life/job/situation (as I suspect), then it was murder. But what he said while he was shooting makes no difference.

[Anonymous]

So all it takes it two words uttered to make a terrorist? The same two words that most Muslims say every day in a variety of situations?

Grasping at straws.

During the Gulf War, I heard lots of prayers (some of them by Army Chaplains) asking for things like “the strength and courage to defeat our enemies” (and I was never even near combat). It never occurred to me that, had I actually killed an enemy, these prayers would have made me a terrorist.

All of this is beside the point. In order to be a terrorist you must target civilians. Don’t know why everyone is ignoring that fact. Let me repeat that: terrorists target civilians.

By definition, one cannot be a terrorist if they target uniformed military, no matter what the reason.

If Hasan was really playing for the other team, then it was an act of war. If he was a nutcase fed up with his life/job/situation (as I suspect), then it was murder. But what he said while he was shooting makes no difference.

[Anonymous]

So all it takes it two words uttered to make a terrorist? The same two words that most Muslims say every day in a variety of situations?

Grasping at straws.

During the Gulf War, I heard lots of prayers (some of them by Army Chaplains) asking for things like “the strength and courage to defeat our enemies” (and I was never even near combat). It never occurred to me that, had I actually killed an enemy, these prayers would have made me a terrorist.

All of this is beside the point. In order to be a terrorist you must target civilians. Don’t know why everyone is ignoring that fact. Let me repeat that: terrorists target civilians.

By definition, one cannot be a terrorist if they target uniformed military, no matter what the reason.

If Hasan was really playing for the other team, then it was an act of war. If he was a nutcase fed up with his life/job/situation (as I suspect), then it was murder. But what he said while he was shooting makes no difference.

[Anonymous]

So all it takes it two words uttered to make a terrorist? The same two words that most Muslims say every day in a variety of situations?

Grasping at straws.

During the Gulf War, I heard lots of prayers (some of them by Army Chaplains) asking for things like “the strength and courage to defeat our enemies” (and I was never even near combat). It never occurred to me that, had I actually killed an enemy, these prayers would have made me a terrorist.

All of this is beside the point. In order to be a terrorist you must target civilians. Don’t know why everyone is ignoring that fact. Let me repeat that: terrorists target civilians.

By definition, one cannot be a terrorist if they target uniformed military, no matter what the reason.

If Hasan was really playing for the other team, then it was an act of war. If he was a nutcase fed up with his life/job/situation (as I suspect), then it was murder. But what he said while he was shooting makes no difference.

[NotCranky]

I pretty much agree with all that you have said there, Arraya. My wife and I have been discussing some of your points. The idea that someone is going to be let out of the military because they are Muslim is unacceptable because it symbolizes a lack of conquest of Muslims. As much as I tend to want to focus on the stealing of resources, the wars(Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan,ect.) has the component/intention of conquering the people as well. We want to know that they are conquered. We want signs that this is going well.Hasan presents the opposite, especially since his outburst occurred close to home.Whether he was crazy or not doesn’t change the implications. We have created “terrorism” by amplifying the national “insecurity” by attacking the middle east over the decades. We wont leave and perhaps can’t successfully “conquer”, including, or because of the religiosity aspects. I really despise the “holy war” aspect but it isn’t going away. Both sides are driven by or using zealotry. We are effectively maintaining the Christian lies in our culture for effect and manipulation as well. We are being terrorized for effect by our own as much as anything, including by some piggs,perhaps inadvertently on their part.

[NotCranky]

I pretty much agree with all that you have said there, Arraya. My wife and I have been discussing some of your points. The idea that someone is going to be let out of the military because they are Muslim is unacceptable because it symbolizes a lack of conquest of Muslims. As much as I tend to want to focus on the stealing of resources, the wars(Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan,ect.) has the component/intention of conquering the people as well. We want to know that they are conquered. We want signs that this is going well.Hasan presents the opposite, especially since his outburst occurred close to home.Whether he was crazy or not doesn’t change the implications. We have created “terrorism” by amplifying the national “insecurity” by attacking the middle east over the decades. We wont leave and perhaps can’t successfully “conquer”, including, or because of the religiosity aspects. I really despise the “holy war” aspect but it isn’t going away. Both sides are driven by or using zealotry. We are effectively maintaining the Christian lies in our culture for effect and manipulation as well. We are being terrorized for effect by our own as much as anything, including by some piggs,perhaps inadvertently on their part.

[NotCranky]

I pretty much agree with all that you have said there, Arraya. My wife and I have been discussing some of your points. The idea that someone is going to be let out of the military because they are Muslim is unacceptable because it symbolizes a lack of conquest of Muslims. As much as I tend to want to focus on the stealing of resources, the wars(Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan,ect.) has the component/intention of conquering the people as well. We want to know that they are conquered. We want signs that this is going well.Hasan presents the opposite, especially since his outburst occurred close to home.Whether he was crazy or not doesn’t change the implications. We have created “terrorism” by amplifying the national “insecurity” by attacking the middle east over the decades. We wont leave and perhaps can’t successfully “conquer”, including, or because of the religiosity aspects. I really despise the “holy war” aspect but it isn’t going away. Both sides are driven by or using zealotry. We are effectively maintaining the Christian lies in our culture for effect and manipulation as well. We are being terrorized for effect by our own as much as anything, including by some piggs,perhaps inadvertently on their part.

[NotCranky]

I pretty much agree with all that you have said there, Arraya. My wife and I have been discussing some of your points. The idea that someone is going to be let out of the military because they are Muslim is unacceptable because it symbolizes a lack of conquest of Muslims. As much as I tend to want to focus on the stealing of resources, the wars(Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan,ect.) has the component/intention of conquering the people as well. We want to know that they are conquered. We want signs that this is going well.Hasan presents the opposite, especially since his outburst occurred close to home.Whether he was crazy or not doesn’t change the implications. We have created “terrorism” by amplifying the national “insecurity” by attacking the middle east over the decades. We wont leave and perhaps can’t successfully “conquer”, including, or because of the religiosity aspects. I really despise the “holy war” aspect but it isn’t going away. Both sides are driven by or using zealotry. We are effectively maintaining the Christian lies in our culture for effect and manipulation as well. We are being terrorized for effect by our own as much as anything, including by some piggs,perhaps inadvertently on their part.

[Author]

Posts