TARP now estimated to cost $356 billion

[Coronita]

[quote=TheBreeze][quote=flu]

Although I’m as pissed off with all these bailouts as probably other parts of main street are. At the same time, I’m foolish enough to be believe that unless there is some radical change in the way our economy works there is/will be no “main street” if “wall street” collapses.

[/quote]

Do you not find it curious that the stock market is about at the same levels it was back during the LTCM days — more than 10 years ago? Could it be that the bailout of LTCM didn’t decrease systemic risk, but rather increased it by encouraging malinvestment in ‘financial innovation’?

I disagree that the government bailouts decrease systemic risk. All the government can do is transfer systemic risk from private parties to the taxpayer.

Do you really think that propping up idiotic/fraudulent companies is decreasing systemic risk? Do you think that FHA loans with $700K limits and 0-down is decreasing systemic risk?

The problem during this time period is not lack of credit. The problem is lack of credit-worthy borrowers. Credit needs to contract during this portion of the cycle, but the government isn’t allowing it, which is increasing systemic risk.

I can’t believe that you and Allan call yourselves conservatives. You have way more faith in the goverenment than either me,, or any of my liberal buddies.
[/quote]

Breezie. What is it that you want? Do you want a complete collapse of the U.S. economy? Do you look forward to everyone being thrown on the street, no food, no water, and everyone armed with guns, reversion back to the wild wild west in which needs/wants are satisfied the ones with the bigger guns….It’s not a question of whether or not government throwing more money is risky or not. Everything has risk. Guess what, this is the almost like General Custard’s last stand. It’s the Hail Mary, or whatever your faith calls it. Obama and this administration just traded off our future generations by how much we’re going to spend. We’re going to be spending more money on bank bailouts. You think there are better alternatives?

And BTW: this administration is doing about the just about the same in terms of deregulating, relaxing rules, and expose this country to more risk. Weren’t you one that put voted for the admin? What were you thinking when you voted for a lopsided 1 party dominated government. It was an open ticket just like how the rep’s had it for almost 8 years. 🙂

[TheBreeze]

I voted for Bob Barr. McCain would have done the same crap because the government has been captured by a financial oligarchy. The two parties are essentially the same now.

[TheBreeze]

I voted for Bob Barr. McCain would have done the same crap because the government has been captured by a financial oligarchy. The two parties are essentially the same now.

[TheBreeze]

I voted for Bob Barr. McCain would have done the same crap because the government has been captured by a financial oligarchy. The two parties are essentially the same now.

[TheBreeze]

I voted for Bob Barr. McCain would have done the same crap because the government has been captured by a financial oligarchy. The two parties are essentially the same now.

[TheBreeze]

I voted for Bob Barr. McCain would have done the same crap because the government has been captured by a financial oligarchy. The two parties are essentially the same now.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Breezhnev: I have very little faith in the USG. However, as FLU accurately points out, we’re in Hail Mary mode right now. They are the best of the bad choices, which makes them better than the worst choice. We don’t have any real good choices in here, do we?

That being said, I’d rather execute as much of a controlled hard landing as I could, in hopes of avoiding a crash. I recognize that, as FLU also points out, we’re burdening future generations as a result, but it’s a better choice than letting the wheels come completely off the wagon. Again, bad choice is better than worse choice.

And, just out of curiosity, what the heck does the stock market being approximately level to 1997/1998 have to do with systemic risk? I would look at the size of the derivatives market (versus 1997/1998) and the rise of “shadow banking”,

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Breezhnev: I have very little faith in the USG. However, as FLU accurately points out, we’re in Hail Mary mode right now. They are the best of the bad choices, which makes them better than the worst choice. We don’t have any real good choices in here, do we?

That being said, I’d rather execute as much of a controlled hard landing as I could, in hopes of avoiding a crash. I recognize that, as FLU also points out, we’re burdening future generations as a result, but it’s a better choice than letting the wheels come completely off the wagon. Again, bad choice is better than worse choice.

And, just out of curiosity, what the heck does the stock market being approximately level to 1997/1998 have to do with systemic risk? I would look at the size of the derivatives market (versus 1997/1998) and the rise of “shadow banking”,

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Breezhnev: I have very little faith in the USG. However, as FLU accurately points out, we’re in Hail Mary mode right now. They are the best of the bad choices, which makes them better than the worst choice. We don’t have any real good choices in here, do we?

That being said, I’d rather execute as much of a controlled hard landing as I could, in hopes of avoiding a crash. I recognize that, as FLU also points out, we’re burdening future generations as a result, but it’s a better choice than letting the wheels come completely off the wagon. Again, bad choice is better than worse choice.

And, just out of curiosity, what the heck does the stock market being approximately level to 1997/1998 have to do with systemic risk? I would look at the size of the derivatives market (versus 1997/1998) and the rise of “shadow banking”,

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Breezhnev: I have very little faith in the USG. However, as FLU accurately points out, we’re in Hail Mary mode right now. They are the best of the bad choices, which makes them better than the worst choice. We don’t have any real good choices in here, do we?

That being said, I’d rather execute as much of a controlled hard landing as I could, in hopes of avoiding a crash. I recognize that, as FLU also points out, we’re burdening future generations as a result, but it’s a better choice than letting the wheels come completely off the wagon. Again, bad choice is better than worse choice.

And, just out of curiosity, what the heck does the stock market being approximately level to 1997/1998 have to do with systemic risk? I would look at the size of the derivatives market (versus 1997/1998) and the rise of “shadow banking”,

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Breezhnev: I have very little faith in the USG. However, as FLU accurately points out, we’re in Hail Mary mode right now. They are the best of the bad choices, which makes them better than the worst choice. We don’t have any real good choices in here, do we?

That being said, I’d rather execute as much of a controlled hard landing as I could, in hopes of avoiding a crash. I recognize that, as FLU also points out, we’re burdening future generations as a result, but it’s a better choice than letting the wheels come completely off the wagon. Again, bad choice is better than worse choice.

And, just out of curiosity, what the heck does the stock market being approximately level to 1997/1998 have to do with systemic risk? I would look at the size of the derivatives market (versus 1997/1998) and the rise of “shadow banking”,

[Arraya]

People have a hard time accepting that some people may not have allegiance to nation states when all evidence points to the contrary. They also have a massive aversion to questioning motives instead of competence. Combine that with absolutely no accountability for leaders and you have a recipe for allowing yourselves to get ripped off and abused. It’s baked in the mother fucking cake!

It’s like an abusive family where one child finally starts speaking truth and he gets attacked for being a troublemaker. People are exceedingly good at rationalizing actions in those situations, aren’t they? The mind is very clever.

Call it the culmination of decades of short-sighted self interested policies to benefit the few or outright conspiring to fuck over the many. But disaster is upon us nonetheless and we STUPIDLY give the abusers more power.

I’ve been abundantly clear on my short term predictions for over a year now on where this was going. Depression level unemployment and a crashed currency with no prospects of pulling out. Well, U-6 is 15.6% and the world is calling for the end of dollar hegemony. I don’t need to understand the complexities of the CDS market to call bullshit when I see it and it’s not hard to see where this is going.

Somehow I think in about a year or less we are going to feel like guy that took and option arm in early 2006. He does not have anybody to blame but himself, right? The loan documents were too confusing for him just like all the bailout measures are for us proletariat. Yet, I’d be willing to bet that a few people were pitched the option arm and they did not quite understand it but somehow they “felt” it was not a good idea.

But I’m sure when unemployment is at 20% + , they and their apologists will proclaim it would be worse if we hadn’t given in to their dictates. It always could have been worse, right?

Meanwhile, benighted leaders of our messy little civilization continue to weave together Golden Solutions made of straw.

The vital questions — those that must be asked and answered — are not even within the realm of thought for these who strive to find advantage among the the throngs of humans as our social structure crumbles away from us when it did not have to be this way.

This is more of a political crisis than economic one and Daddy hits us because he loves us.

A crucial point in that earlier history occurred when men and women of good will turned aside from the task of shoring up the Roman imperium and ceased to identify the continuation of civility and moral community with the maintenance of that imperium. What they set themselves to achieve instead was the construction of new forms of community within which the moral life could be sustained so that both morality and civility might survive the coming ages of barbarism and darkness. If my account of our moral condition is correct, we ought also to conclude that for some time now we have reached that turning-point. What matters at this stage is the construction of local forms of community within which civility and the intellectual moral life can be sustained through the new dark ages which are already upon us.
This time, however, the Barbarians are not waiting beyond the frontiers; they have already been governing us for quite some time. And it is our lack of consciousness of this that constitutes part of our predicament.”

~Alasdair MacIntyre, After Virtue : A Study in Moral Theory

[Arraya]

People have a hard time accepting that some people may not have allegiance to nation states when all evidence points to the contrary. They also have a massive aversion to questioning motives instead of competence. Combine that with absolutely no accountability for leaders and you have a recipe for allowing yourselves to get ripped off and abused. It’s baked in the mother fucking cake!

It’s like an abusive family where one child finally starts speaking truth and he gets attacked for being a troublemaker. People are exceedingly good at rationalizing actions in those situations, aren’t they? The mind is very clever.

Call it the culmination of decades of short-sighted self interested policies to benefit the few or outright conspiring to fuck over the many. But disaster is upon us nonetheless and we STUPIDLY give the abusers more power.

I’ve been abundantly clear on my short term predictions for over a year now on where this was going. Depression level unemployment and a crashed currency with no prospects of pulling out. Well, U-6 is 15.6% and the world is calling for the end of dollar hegemony. I don’t need to understand the complexities of the CDS market to call bullshit when I see it and it’s not hard to see where this is going.

Somehow I think in about a year or less we are going to feel like guy that took and option arm in early 2006. He does not have anybody to blame but himself, right? The loan documents were too confusing for him just like all the bailout measures are for us proletariat. Yet, I’d be willing to bet that a few people were pitched the option arm and they did not quite understand it but somehow they “felt” it was not a good idea.

But I’m sure when unemployment is at 20% + , they and their apologists will proclaim it would be worse if we hadn’t given in to their dictates. It always could have been worse, right?

Meanwhile, benighted leaders of our messy little civilization continue to weave together Golden Solutions made of straw.

The vital questions — those that must be asked and answered — are not even within the realm of thought for these who strive to find advantage among the the throngs of humans as our social structure crumbles away from us when it did not have to be this way.

This is more of a political crisis than economic one and Daddy hits us because he loves us.

A crucial point in that earlier history occurred when men and women of good will turned aside from the task of shoring up the Roman imperium and ceased to identify the continuation of civility and moral community with the maintenance of that imperium. What they set themselves to achieve instead was the construction of new forms of community within which the moral life could be sustained so that both morality and civility might survive the coming ages of barbarism and darkness. If my account of our moral condition is correct, we ought also to conclude that for some time now we have reached that turning-point. What matters at this stage is the construction of local forms of community within which civility and the intellectual moral life can be sustained through the new dark ages which are already upon us.
This time, however, the Barbarians are not waiting beyond the frontiers; they have already been governing us for quite some time. And it is our lack of consciousness of this that constitutes part of our predicament.”

~Alasdair MacIntyre, After Virtue : A Study in Moral Theory

[Arraya]

People have a hard time accepting that some people may not have allegiance to nation states when all evidence points to the contrary. They also have a massive aversion to questioning motives instead of competence. Combine that with absolutely no accountability for leaders and you have a recipe for allowing yourselves to get ripped off and abused. It’s baked in the mother fucking cake!

It’s like an abusive family where one child finally starts speaking truth and he gets attacked for being a troublemaker. People are exceedingly good at rationalizing actions in those situations, aren’t they? The mind is very clever.

Call it the culmination of decades of short-sighted self interested policies to benefit the few or outright conspiring to fuck over the many. But disaster is upon us nonetheless and we STUPIDLY give the abusers more power.

I’ve been abundantly clear on my short term predictions for over a year now on where this was going. Depression level unemployment and a crashed currency with no prospects of pulling out. Well, U-6 is 15.6% and the world is calling for the end of dollar hegemony. I don’t need to understand the complexities of the CDS market to call bullshit when I see it and it’s not hard to see where this is going.

Somehow I think in about a year or less we are going to feel like guy that took and option arm in early 2006. He does not have anybody to blame but himself, right? The loan documents were too confusing for him just like all the bailout measures are for us proletariat. Yet, I’d be willing to bet that a few people were pitched the option arm and they did not quite understand it but somehow they “felt” it was not a good idea.

But I’m sure when unemployment is at 20% + , they and their apologists will proclaim it would be worse if we hadn’t given in to their dictates. It always could have been worse, right?

Meanwhile, benighted leaders of our messy little civilization continue to weave together Golden Solutions made of straw.

The vital questions — those that must be asked and answered — are not even within the realm of thought for these who strive to find advantage among the the throngs of humans as our social structure crumbles away from us when it did not have to be this way.

This is more of a political crisis than economic one and Daddy hits us because he loves us.

A crucial point in that earlier history occurred when men and women of good will turned aside from the task of shoring up the Roman imperium and ceased to identify the continuation of civility and moral community with the maintenance of that imperium. What they set themselves to achieve instead was the construction of new forms of community within which the moral life could be sustained so that both morality and civility might survive the coming ages of barbarism and darkness. If my account of our moral condition is correct, we ought also to conclude that for some time now we have reached that turning-point. What matters at this stage is the construction of local forms of community within which civility and the intellectual moral life can be sustained through the new dark ages which are already upon us.
This time, however, the Barbarians are not waiting beyond the frontiers; they have already been governing us for quite some time. And it is our lack of consciousness of this that constitutes part of our predicament.”

~Alasdair MacIntyre, After Virtue : A Study in Moral Theory

[Arraya]

People have a hard time accepting that some people may not have allegiance to nation states when all evidence points to the contrary. They also have a massive aversion to questioning motives instead of competence. Combine that with absolutely no accountability for leaders and you have a recipe for allowing yourselves to get ripped off and abused. It’s baked in the mother fucking cake!

It’s like an abusive family where one child finally starts speaking truth and he gets attacked for being a troublemaker. People are exceedingly good at rationalizing actions in those situations, aren’t they? The mind is very clever.

Call it the culmination of decades of short-sighted self interested policies to benefit the few or outright conspiring to fuck over the many. But disaster is upon us nonetheless and we STUPIDLY give the abusers more power.

I’ve been abundantly clear on my short term predictions for over a year now on where this was going. Depression level unemployment and a crashed currency with no prospects of pulling out. Well, U-6 is 15.6% and the world is calling for the end of dollar hegemony. I don’t need to understand the complexities of the CDS market to call bullshit when I see it and it’s not hard to see where this is going.

Somehow I think in about a year or less we are going to feel like guy that took and option arm in early 2006. He does not have anybody to blame but himself, right? The loan documents were too confusing for him just like all the bailout measures are for us proletariat. Yet, I’d be willing to bet that a few people were pitched the option arm and they did not quite understand it but somehow they “felt” it was not a good idea.

But I’m sure when unemployment is at 20% + , they and their apologists will proclaim it would be worse if we hadn’t given in to their dictates. It always could have been worse, right?

Meanwhile, benighted leaders of our messy little civilization continue to weave together Golden Solutions made of straw.

The vital questions — those that must be asked and answered — are not even within the realm of thought for these who strive to find advantage among the the throngs of humans as our social structure crumbles away from us when it did not have to be this way.

This is more of a political crisis than economic one and Daddy hits us because he loves us.

A crucial point in that earlier history occurred when men and women of good will turned aside from the task of shoring up the Roman imperium and ceased to identify the continuation of civility and moral community with the maintenance of that imperium. What they set themselves to achieve instead was the construction of new forms of community within which the moral life could be sustained so that both morality and civility might survive the coming ages of barbarism and darkness. If my account of our moral condition is correct, we ought also to conclude that for some time now we have reached that turning-point. What matters at this stage is the construction of local forms of community within which civility and the intellectual moral life can be sustained through the new dark ages which are already upon us.
This time, however, the Barbarians are not waiting beyond the frontiers; they have already been governing us for quite some time. And it is our lack of consciousness of this that constitutes part of our predicament.”

~Alasdair MacIntyre, After Virtue : A Study in Moral Theory

[Author]

Posts