TARP has lost 40% since inception

[TheBreeze]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Breeze: Did you read what you wrote about the derivatives market being only a few tens of trillions of dollars? You do realize the ENTIRE U.S. GDP clocks in at around $14.5Trn, right?
[/quote]

Did you read what I wrote? I said that the value of STOCKS (as in the stock market; as in the DJIA or the S&P or the Nikkei) is only worth a few tens of trillions. So obviously the stock market does not believe that these derivatives are worth anything near $600 trillion.

GDP is essentially a measure of revenue, not net income. Net income may be negative on that GDP number as the value of goods may be dropping below the cost of production. Do you value companies based on their revenues or their net incomes?

[TheBreeze]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
I’m sure your personal Oracle at Delphi, Mr. Mortgage and the inestimable Mike Shedlock have much to say on the subject, but remember this: They have the luxury of opining from the safety of their offices, while officials the world over have to handle this situation, and in real-time. That’s the telling difference.
[/quote]

This sounds like bleeding-heart liberal bullshit to me. I thought you fashioned yourself as a conservative. The paragraph above is exactly like something Barney Frank would say to justify government intervention in the housing market. Welcome to the dark side!

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Lastly, if all of this is being done for no other reason than to provide political cover for various cronies and evildoers, well, what does that say about your guy, Obama? Wouldn’t that, in essence, make him the biggest conspirator of them all?[/quote]

Yes, Obama is either foolish about economics or a total tool of the establishment. Or maybe both.

[TheBreeze]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
I’m sure your personal Oracle at Delphi, Mr. Mortgage and the inestimable Mike Shedlock have much to say on the subject, but remember this: They have the luxury of opining from the safety of their offices, while officials the world over have to handle this situation, and in real-time. That’s the telling difference.
[/quote]

This sounds like bleeding-heart liberal bullshit to me. I thought you fashioned yourself as a conservative. The paragraph above is exactly like something Barney Frank would say to justify government intervention in the housing market. Welcome to the dark side!

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Lastly, if all of this is being done for no other reason than to provide political cover for various cronies and evildoers, well, what does that say about your guy, Obama? Wouldn’t that, in essence, make him the biggest conspirator of them all?[/quote]

Yes, Obama is either foolish about economics or a total tool of the establishment. Or maybe both.

[TheBreeze]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
I’m sure your personal Oracle at Delphi, Mr. Mortgage and the inestimable Mike Shedlock have much to say on the subject, but remember this: They have the luxury of opining from the safety of their offices, while officials the world over have to handle this situation, and in real-time. That’s the telling difference.
[/quote]

This sounds like bleeding-heart liberal bullshit to me. I thought you fashioned yourself as a conservative. The paragraph above is exactly like something Barney Frank would say to justify government intervention in the housing market. Welcome to the dark side!

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Lastly, if all of this is being done for no other reason than to provide political cover for various cronies and evildoers, well, what does that say about your guy, Obama? Wouldn’t that, in essence, make him the biggest conspirator of them all?[/quote]

Yes, Obama is either foolish about economics or a total tool of the establishment. Or maybe both.

[TheBreeze]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
I’m sure your personal Oracle at Delphi, Mr. Mortgage and the inestimable Mike Shedlock have much to say on the subject, but remember this: They have the luxury of opining from the safety of their offices, while officials the world over have to handle this situation, and in real-time. That’s the telling difference.
[/quote]

This sounds like bleeding-heart liberal bullshit to me. I thought you fashioned yourself as a conservative. The paragraph above is exactly like something Barney Frank would say to justify government intervention in the housing market. Welcome to the dark side!

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Lastly, if all of this is being done for no other reason than to provide political cover for various cronies and evildoers, well, what does that say about your guy, Obama? Wouldn’t that, in essence, make him the biggest conspirator of them all?[/quote]

Yes, Obama is either foolish about economics or a total tool of the establishment. Or maybe both.

[TheBreeze]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
I’m sure your personal Oracle at Delphi, Mr. Mortgage and the inestimable Mike Shedlock have much to say on the subject, but remember this: They have the luxury of opining from the safety of their offices, while officials the world over have to handle this situation, and in real-time. That’s the telling difference.
[/quote]

This sounds like bleeding-heart liberal bullshit to me. I thought you fashioned yourself as a conservative. The paragraph above is exactly like something Barney Frank would say to justify government intervention in the housing market. Welcome to the dark side!

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Lastly, if all of this is being done for no other reason than to provide political cover for various cronies and evildoers, well, what does that say about your guy, Obama? Wouldn’t that, in essence, make him the biggest conspirator of them all?[/quote]

Yes, Obama is either foolish about economics or a total tool of the establishment. Or maybe both.

[TheBreeze]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
And, I’m sorry, but the credit market remains pretty much a wreck, and on a world-wide basis. That’s the gravest danger we face right now, and where the strongest lessons of the Great Depression remain.[/quote]

50% of Americans are one or two missed paychecks away from financial ruin:

A MetLife study released last week found that 50% of Americans said they have only a one-month cushion — roughly two paychecks — or less before they would be unable to fully meet their financial obligations if they were to lose their jobs. More disturbing is that 28% said they could not make ends meet for longer than two weeks without their jobs.

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/

Under these conditions, the credit market should be frozen because most Americans are an atrocious credit risk. If you are so worried about the credit market, how about you loan some of your personal funds to these people? Instead, like most liberals, you want to use my tax money and loan it to these imbeciles.

You and Barney Frank would make a great couple as you both share the same philosophies.

[TheBreeze]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
And, I’m sorry, but the credit market remains pretty much a wreck, and on a world-wide basis. That’s the gravest danger we face right now, and where the strongest lessons of the Great Depression remain.[/quote]

50% of Americans are one or two missed paychecks away from financial ruin:

A MetLife study released last week found that 50% of Americans said they have only a one-month cushion — roughly two paychecks — or less before they would be unable to fully meet their financial obligations if they were to lose their jobs. More disturbing is that 28% said they could not make ends meet for longer than two weeks without their jobs.

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/

Under these conditions, the credit market should be frozen because most Americans are an atrocious credit risk. If you are so worried about the credit market, how about you loan some of your personal funds to these people? Instead, like most liberals, you want to use my tax money and loan it to these imbeciles.

You and Barney Frank would make a great couple as you both share the same philosophies.

[TheBreeze]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
And, I’m sorry, but the credit market remains pretty much a wreck, and on a world-wide basis. That’s the gravest danger we face right now, and where the strongest lessons of the Great Depression remain.[/quote]

50% of Americans are one or two missed paychecks away from financial ruin:

A MetLife study released last week found that 50% of Americans said they have only a one-month cushion — roughly two paychecks — or less before they would be unable to fully meet their financial obligations if they were to lose their jobs. More disturbing is that 28% said they could not make ends meet for longer than two weeks without their jobs.

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/

Under these conditions, the credit market should be frozen because most Americans are an atrocious credit risk. If you are so worried about the credit market, how about you loan some of your personal funds to these people? Instead, like most liberals, you want to use my tax money and loan it to these imbeciles.

You and Barney Frank would make a great couple as you both share the same philosophies.

[TheBreeze]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
And, I’m sorry, but the credit market remains pretty much a wreck, and on a world-wide basis. That’s the gravest danger we face right now, and where the strongest lessons of the Great Depression remain.[/quote]

50% of Americans are one or two missed paychecks away from financial ruin:

A MetLife study released last week found that 50% of Americans said they have only a one-month cushion — roughly two paychecks — or less before they would be unable to fully meet their financial obligations if they were to lose their jobs. More disturbing is that 28% said they could not make ends meet for longer than two weeks without their jobs.

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/

Under these conditions, the credit market should be frozen because most Americans are an atrocious credit risk. If you are so worried about the credit market, how about you loan some of your personal funds to these people? Instead, like most liberals, you want to use my tax money and loan it to these imbeciles.

You and Barney Frank would make a great couple as you both share the same philosophies.

[TheBreeze]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
And, I’m sorry, but the credit market remains pretty much a wreck, and on a world-wide basis. That’s the gravest danger we face right now, and where the strongest lessons of the Great Depression remain.[/quote]

50% of Americans are one or two missed paychecks away from financial ruin:

A MetLife study released last week found that 50% of Americans said they have only a one-month cushion — roughly two paychecks — or less before they would be unable to fully meet their financial obligations if they were to lose their jobs. More disturbing is that 28% said they could not make ends meet for longer than two weeks without their jobs.

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/

Under these conditions, the credit market should be frozen because most Americans are an atrocious credit risk. If you are so worried about the credit market, how about you loan some of your personal funds to these people? Instead, like most liberals, you want to use my tax money and loan it to these imbeciles.

You and Barney Frank would make a great couple as you both share the same philosophies.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Breeze: You’re off your meds again, aren’t you? Where, oh where, to begin?

First off, there is a key distinction between businesses and individuals, and being a “balance sheet” kind of guy (as you yourself pointed out), my advocacy has always been for safe and sound lending.

Obviously, that has not happened and that is a major part of the problem we’re facing.

Secondly, and based on that, I would never and never have advocated lending to someone who is a poor credit risk, business or personal.

Third, good and great credit risks remain out there and they need capital to continue operations and grow their businesses (this, Breeze, would the aspect of “proper capital allocation” you seem to be willfully ignoring). As I mentioned before, credit remains frozen due to fear of the unknown, meaning those crappy assets that haven’t come to light, versus actual credit risk, which is still finding it’s proper pricing in the market. In order for us to find our way out of this morass, capital will need to be properly allocated to those businesses that are best able to put it to use and grow efficiently. Parenthetically, yes, we are watching the government engage in some central planning and questionable “asset management”, but we’re also in the throes of a very serious credit crisis, with the risk of systemic collapse near by (see the fourth point below).

Fourth, the word “crisis” by it’s very definition recognizes a situation that will pass at some point. Where that point is can often be determined by what strong actions are employed to avert or mitigate it. I am an advocate of the free market (not that I think that one exists, but that’s another story), but I also recognize that sometimes you have to do things that transcend normal policy, since these aren’t normal times. Akin to Lincoln’s suspension of the writ of habeas corpus during the American Civil War. Extraordinary measure for an extraordinary time (and, yes, Breezie, he reinstated it, so please don’t worry).

Fifth, I’m not a liberal. Never have been, never will be. You, Breeze, are a liberal, or, more correctly, a leftist. Hence your doe-eyed, stutter breathed support of Obama and his various henchpersons and minions. Me, not so much.

Sixth, Barney Frank? Really? Yet another cheap strawman argument and with no basis (given that I’m a conservative and all). No, my esteem for the Honorable Mr. Frank is about on par with Maxine Waters, Henry Waxman and Diane Feinstein (whom I fondly remember from my days growing up in the San Francisco Bay Area).

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Breeze: You’re off your meds again, aren’t you? Where, oh where, to begin?

First off, there is a key distinction between businesses and individuals, and being a “balance sheet” kind of guy (as you yourself pointed out), my advocacy has always been for safe and sound lending.

Obviously, that has not happened and that is a major part of the problem we’re facing.

Secondly, and based on that, I would never and never have advocated lending to someone who is a poor credit risk, business or personal.

Third, good and great credit risks remain out there and they need capital to continue operations and grow their businesses (this, Breeze, would the aspect of “proper capital allocation” you seem to be willfully ignoring). As I mentioned before, credit remains frozen due to fear of the unknown, meaning those crappy assets that haven’t come to light, versus actual credit risk, which is still finding it’s proper pricing in the market. In order for us to find our way out of this morass, capital will need to be properly allocated to those businesses that are best able to put it to use and grow efficiently. Parenthetically, yes, we are watching the government engage in some central planning and questionable “asset management”, but we’re also in the throes of a very serious credit crisis, with the risk of systemic collapse near by (see the fourth point below).

Fourth, the word “crisis” by it’s very definition recognizes a situation that will pass at some point. Where that point is can often be determined by what strong actions are employed to avert or mitigate it. I am an advocate of the free market (not that I think that one exists, but that’s another story), but I also recognize that sometimes you have to do things that transcend normal policy, since these aren’t normal times. Akin to Lincoln’s suspension of the writ of habeas corpus during the American Civil War. Extraordinary measure for an extraordinary time (and, yes, Breezie, he reinstated it, so please don’t worry).

Fifth, I’m not a liberal. Never have been, never will be. You, Breeze, are a liberal, or, more correctly, a leftist. Hence your doe-eyed, stutter breathed support of Obama and his various henchpersons and minions. Me, not so much.

Sixth, Barney Frank? Really? Yet another cheap strawman argument and with no basis (given that I’m a conservative and all). No, my esteem for the Honorable Mr. Frank is about on par with Maxine Waters, Henry Waxman and Diane Feinstein (whom I fondly remember from my days growing up in the San Francisco Bay Area).

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Breeze: You’re off your meds again, aren’t you? Where, oh where, to begin?

First off, there is a key distinction between businesses and individuals, and being a “balance sheet” kind of guy (as you yourself pointed out), my advocacy has always been for safe and sound lending.

Obviously, that has not happened and that is a major part of the problem we’re facing.

Secondly, and based on that, I would never and never have advocated lending to someone who is a poor credit risk, business or personal.

Third, good and great credit risks remain out there and they need capital to continue operations and grow their businesses (this, Breeze, would the aspect of “proper capital allocation” you seem to be willfully ignoring). As I mentioned before, credit remains frozen due to fear of the unknown, meaning those crappy assets that haven’t come to light, versus actual credit risk, which is still finding it’s proper pricing in the market. In order for us to find our way out of this morass, capital will need to be properly allocated to those businesses that are best able to put it to use and grow efficiently. Parenthetically, yes, we are watching the government engage in some central planning and questionable “asset management”, but we’re also in the throes of a very serious credit crisis, with the risk of systemic collapse near by (see the fourth point below).

Fourth, the word “crisis” by it’s very definition recognizes a situation that will pass at some point. Where that point is can often be determined by what strong actions are employed to avert or mitigate it. I am an advocate of the free market (not that I think that one exists, but that’s another story), but I also recognize that sometimes you have to do things that transcend normal policy, since these aren’t normal times. Akin to Lincoln’s suspension of the writ of habeas corpus during the American Civil War. Extraordinary measure for an extraordinary time (and, yes, Breezie, he reinstated it, so please don’t worry).

Fifth, I’m not a liberal. Never have been, never will be. You, Breeze, are a liberal, or, more correctly, a leftist. Hence your doe-eyed, stutter breathed support of Obama and his various henchpersons and minions. Me, not so much.

Sixth, Barney Frank? Really? Yet another cheap strawman argument and with no basis (given that I’m a conservative and all). No, my esteem for the Honorable Mr. Frank is about on par with Maxine Waters, Henry Waxman and Diane Feinstein (whom I fondly remember from my days growing up in the San Francisco Bay Area).

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Breeze: You’re off your meds again, aren’t you? Where, oh where, to begin?

First off, there is a key distinction between businesses and individuals, and being a “balance sheet” kind of guy (as you yourself pointed out), my advocacy has always been for safe and sound lending.

Obviously, that has not happened and that is a major part of the problem we’re facing.

Secondly, and based on that, I would never and never have advocated lending to someone who is a poor credit risk, business or personal.

Third, good and great credit risks remain out there and they need capital to continue operations and grow their businesses (this, Breeze, would the aspect of “proper capital allocation” you seem to be willfully ignoring). As I mentioned before, credit remains frozen due to fear of the unknown, meaning those crappy assets that haven’t come to light, versus actual credit risk, which is still finding it’s proper pricing in the market. In order for us to find our way out of this morass, capital will need to be properly allocated to those businesses that are best able to put it to use and grow efficiently. Parenthetically, yes, we are watching the government engage in some central planning and questionable “asset management”, but we’re also in the throes of a very serious credit crisis, with the risk of systemic collapse near by (see the fourth point below).

Fourth, the word “crisis” by it’s very definition recognizes a situation that will pass at some point. Where that point is can often be determined by what strong actions are employed to avert or mitigate it. I am an advocate of the free market (not that I think that one exists, but that’s another story), but I also recognize that sometimes you have to do things that transcend normal policy, since these aren’t normal times. Akin to Lincoln’s suspension of the writ of habeas corpus during the American Civil War. Extraordinary measure for an extraordinary time (and, yes, Breezie, he reinstated it, so please don’t worry).

Fifth, I’m not a liberal. Never have been, never will be. You, Breeze, are a liberal, or, more correctly, a leftist. Hence your doe-eyed, stutter breathed support of Obama and his various henchpersons and minions. Me, not so much.

Sixth, Barney Frank? Really? Yet another cheap strawman argument and with no basis (given that I’m a conservative and all). No, my esteem for the Honorable Mr. Frank is about on par with Maxine Waters, Henry Waxman and Diane Feinstein (whom I fondly remember from my days growing up in the San Francisco Bay Area).

[Author]

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