- This topic has 15 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated 17 years, 7 months ago by mixxalot.
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April 8, 2007 at 8:52 PM #8790April 8, 2007 at 10:27 PM #49527greekfireParticipant
IR,
You give a nice synopsis of the Piggington Blog (er, Powayseller’s posts) over the past 2+ years. Nearly everything you said makes sense, however, it will take some time for the general public (and fundamentals) to catch up.
I want to say that I feel you, but that there is some inconsistency with at least one of your statements. The Minnetonka vs. Irvine example is the one I would like to highlight. Although both cities have extremely similar median incomes, they both have extremely dissimilar housing demand.. The reason that Minnetonka median home prices are so much lower than Irvine’s is simply due to supply and demand. How many people do you hear of driving cross country from the East Coast to end up in…Minnesota?
In hindsight, it is plain to see that a plethora of Irvine’s demand was driven by speculation in the OC, LA County, as well as Riverside County. With that said, even speculation has to succumb to the laws of supply and demand. The point I am trying to drive across here is that there appears to be a measurable difference between the number of people that want to purchase a property in Irvine (nice weather year round), versus those that want to purchase a property in Minnetonka (nice weather May-September, crappy weather the rest of the year).
Of course, local economies, diversity, public schools, and the like all play a role, but you catch my drift. Having grown up in Maine myself, I see exactly where you are coming from. Ten years ago I would probably have told you that you are completely full of it. However, Arizona, Texas, and Nevada have caught on and present much more competition to potential California transplants. Add to this the age of the Internet and you have a workforce that can potentially be connected from anywhere there an internet connection.
April 9, 2007 at 6:44 AM #49534IrvineRenterParticipantgreekfire,
Good to know I am capable of parroting Powayseller…
“the reason that Minnetonka median home prices are so much lower than Irvine’s is simply due to supply and demand.”
“The point I am trying to drive across here is that there appears to be a measurable difference between the number of people that want to purchase a property in Irvine (nice weather year round), versus those that want to purchase a property in Minnetonka (nice weather May-September, crappy weather the rest of the year).”
One of the points I was trying to make is that those statements are fallacies not backed up by income statistics or availability of housing inventory. Although I will agree with you that Irvine is a more desirable place to live (otherwise I would move to Minnetonka), demand is measured in dollars, and Minnetonka has the same amount of dollars available to purchase housing as Irvine does. There is not so many fewer homes available in Irvine than Minnetonka to justify a median home price that is more than double.
April 9, 2007 at 8:03 AM #49537NeetaTParticipantIrvineRenter,
Thanks for the edifying write-up. I found it very informative, well written, and interesting. I think most people lack the patience to handle finances in the most efficient and practical manner. They want everything yesterday. My wife and I have careers of what I consider mid to low income. I’m in the military and she is a hotel front desk manager. Because I follow the rich persons guidelines that you set forth in your write-up, my wife and I are able to put away $6,000.00 a month after all our monthly expenses are paid. Most people will not agree with what I have done in the past to get me to this point. First of all, with the exception of my first automobile, I buy everything with cash or credit card to be paid in full. In other words, I don’t buy anything that I cannot pay off immediately with cash, not even a house. Oh yes, I was castigated for buying a house with cash in full on the day of closing. It is unreal how much money I saved when I bought with cash. I have since sold the house and now rent in Virginia Beach, VA. I am again being castigated for renting, but for now it makes since for my wife and I. Anyway, to make a long story short; by virtue of my financial habits, I am able to do what all the spendthrifts are doing with the peace of mind that I have a substantial amount of money saved up, have no debt and can buy a house with cash even in San Diego. As a consequence of most peoples credit spending habits, prices go up as inflation gets out of control due to everyone being able to afford everything via credit. If I had it my way, no one would be able to borrow money and prices would remain in check.
April 9, 2007 at 8:10 AM #49538carlislematthewParticipantOne of the points I was trying to make is that those statements are fallacies not backed up by income statistics or availability of housing inventory. Although I will agree with you that Irvine is a more desirable place to live (otherwise I would move to Minnetonka), demand is measured in dollars, and Minnetonka has the same amount of dollars available to purchase housing as Irvine does. There is not so many fewer homes available in Irvine than Minnetonka to justify a median home price that is more than double.
IMO, it’s perceived demand that is sometimes more important that actual demand. It’s artificial. It’s easier to say “Orange County will always be in high demand” compared with “Minnetonka will always be in high demand”. The perceived level of always-high demand creates an impression (illusion!) that “prices will never go down”. When you have THAT in your mind, you decrease the perception of risk, and you inflate the prices.
Perversely, the widespread assumption that prices never go down, is one the reasons that prices went up so far, and then went down!!
April 9, 2007 at 10:01 AM #49556RottedOakParticipantA better way to compare Irvine and Minnetonka might be to look at their price increases over the past decade. Sure, many might consider Irvine to be more desirable, and thus it commands higher prices overall, but I don’t know of anything that has happened in the recent years to make Irvine increasingly more desirable than Minnetonka.
April 9, 2007 at 10:30 AM #49565IrvineRenterParticipant“IMO, it’s perceived demand that is sometimes more important that actual demand…The perceived level of always-high demand creates an impression (illusion!) that “prices will never go down”. When you have THAT in your mind, you decrease the perception of risk, and you inflate the prices.”
That is an excellent point. The “real estate never always goes up” delusion also had its part to play.
April 9, 2007 at 3:03 PM #49602Nancy_s soothsayerParticipantIrvineRenter,
Bygollygosh, you write so well!!! I could feel the wisdom oozing from that masterpiece you wrote. Thank you. Amen to all of that.
April 10, 2007 at 8:21 AM #49646AKParticipantI read somewhere that “broke” is the condition of having no money, but “poor” is the set of attitudes and behaviors that keep you broke. I wish I could remember who said that …
April 10, 2007 at 9:03 AM #49647AnonymousGuestWell put.
Irvine Renter wrote:
In all of California more than 80% of loan originations in 2006 were either option ARM or interest-only.
Can you point me to the source of this quote?
I think it sums up the Cali housing market issues in one short, sweet statistic.
CG
April 10, 2007 at 9:07 AM #49648bubParticipantBroke is a temporary condition, poor is a state of mind.” –
— Sir Richard Francis Burton
April 10, 2007 at 11:33 AM #49666AnonymousGuestWhy is So. Cal the bad seed in this? Though I agree with the premise of the article, I think focusing on Southern California as the poster boy is off the mark. SoCal real estate lagged the nation during the run-up in the late 1990’s.
And which city leads the nation in foreclosures? The great Midwestern city of Denver. Is Denver’s pathology any different than here?
April 10, 2007 at 12:46 PM #49679AnonymousGuestDenver may lead now, but So Cal will catch up and take the lead over the next year or so, no problem.
April 10, 2007 at 2:57 PM #49689CardiffBaseballParticipantI don’t consider Denver to be the Midwest. Far more Western, than say Chicago, Cleveland, Minneapolis or St. Louis. However I am sure the foreclosure rates are high there as well. Bear in mind that these areas never saw the ridiculous runup in prices, and thus there is less equity to fall back on. Here foreclosures were a non-issue for several years because of run-up.
April 10, 2007 at 8:52 PM #49723AnonymousGuestWow. An excellent synopsis of the scourge of SoCal. I moved here from the East Coast 3 years ago, and agree completely. Although most urban areas suffer from the same pathology, although to a lesser degree. I think the root of the problem in SoCal is that gratification MUST be instant. Folks just don’t want to work hard and get rich slowly. Yes, some are fortunate enough to work slightly and get rich quick, but the only reliable bet is to live below your means and enjoy life not for the car that you drive, but for the choices that you make being a true expression of your personality. Oy, that said, folks should just grow up and realize that the size of their house has absolutely nothing to do with who they are. I rent an 800 sq. ft. half of a duplex, and make more than $330K a year. I also contribute more than $10K per year to a few select 501(c)(3)s, and love every minute of it. I also like the security of knowing that I could quit my job tomorrow, walk away from the rental, and wander the earth for 10 years on amassed savings. That’s not what Madison Avenue touts as cool, but that’s my idea of true freedom.
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