Should I build or buy? (NC inland)

[bearishgurl]

permabear, I just quickly double-checked this morning and the only one that lies within a CFD (out of the 8 lots avail in Poway that I posted), is the first one, “Belvedere,” a 1 AC rocky view lot already subdivided and situated on a “cul-de-sac.” I do not know how much the MR is there. It’s only $280K and the MR (and its smaller size) are probably the reasons for its lower price.

Since mid-century moderns, by their nature, tend to be a little too unusual or eclectic to bother with dealing with yet another layer of bureaucracy (HOA), I would recommend that you (if you consider any lots from my links) consider #8 (Quail Mtn), to avoid MR and HOA. HOA boards could drive you nuts and cost you a fortune on a project like this.

For example, I think Norm’s design (or similar), shown here:

http://normapplebaum.com/rg01.html

would work out GREAT on the lot in link #8.

What do you think, permabear??

The way I see it:

$450K cost of lot
$75K design fees
$5K planning fees
$22K – $27K util fees and kickbacks
$8K engineering fees
$27K periodic inspection fees and sign off
$8K to 10K private road paving (blacktop)
$47K landscaping, pool, driveway
$3K ice plant part way down hillside (fire protection and ins. purposes)
$450K cost of building

Total cost to build is about $1.1M (could be less if don’t need access road or don’t use as many expensive materials).

And you can let your architect and spec builder deal with the “code nazis.” They’re pros so won’t design anything in such a way to begin with that won’t fly in a particular jurisdiction or will arrange a meeting with the “head bureaucrat” first to get approval. If you ask your architect/engineer for some modification or grading shortcut or whatever in the beginning, they’ll just tell you up front that “the City of Poway (or county) won’t permit that.” That’s their biz and they know it well and won’t waste months/years of your time duking it out with the powers that be.

The subjects of these nightmare stories you hear of that are repeatedly going ’round and ’round with the bureaucratic “code-nazis” are primarily the DIYers on a shoestring or persons that fired their architect and/or builder midstream.

Can Norm’s rg01 (wedge) plan be built on the Quail Mtn lot for $1M – $1.1M, within 18-24 mos of hiring an architect?

And what will it’s appraised value be upon completion??

If you have the money to do so, is going thru all this a better investment than spending $1M+ on another “Tuscan” tract home located within a CFD and HOA?

What say Piggs?? Am I way off base here? Would it cost $1.5M to build the wedge in Poway?? Should permabear opt out of the 3000-bottle wine cellar to save costs???

Note: I forgot to mention that when all is said and done and permabear finds out which views he likes best, he can hire his engineer back for another $12K and get 2-3 more “estate home” lots (out of his Quail Mtn. property) under the Subdivision Map Act.

Heck, by giving up a little privacy, he might be able to get back ALL the $$ he put into his “wedge home” out of the sale of 3 lots and then retire his mortgage!! This will take another 18 mos to effect and I don’t think permabear should decide what he wants to do in this regard until he moves in and sees how much land he might want to keep :=)

[bearishgurl]

Check out the awesome photos in this book depicting the CA of yesteryear!!

I’m going to see if it’s available in the library!

[bearishgurl]

Check out the awesome photos in this book depicting the CA of yesteryear!!

I’m going to see if it’s available in the library!

[bearishgurl]

Check out the awesome photos in this book depicting the CA of yesteryear!!

I’m going to see if it’s available in the library!

[bearishgurl]

Check out the awesome photos in this book depicting the CA of yesteryear!!

I’m going to see if it’s available in the library!

[bearishgurl]

Check out the awesome photos in this book depicting the CA of yesteryear!!

I’m going to see if it’s available in the library!

[NotCranky]

[quote=bearishgurlThe way I see it:

$75K design fees
$8K engineering fees
$27K periodic inspection fees and sign off.

The subjects of these nightmare stories you hear of that are repeatedly going ’round and ’round with the bureaucratic “code-nazis” are primarily the DIYers on a shoestring or persons that fired their architect and/or builder midstream.

[/quote]
If a private citizen threw that kind of money at architects,engineers and even contractors, to handle the “code nazis” they probably wouldn’t feel the pain or realize how screwed up the planning and building departments are. They would probably get ripped off on several items though.

Bg, I have drawn and ran my plans on three houses and have interfaced with planning, building and code compliance on many permits and other items. I have had private professionals interject and tell me that I needed expensive elements that I did not. I have fought off fees that I did not have to pay.I have fought off attempts at forced compliance of scams. I have delt with a tremendous amount of incompetence, carelessness and outright shakedowns on the part of the planning,building and code compliance departments. That you would insinuate that problems mostly arise from being a diyfer is just so wrong on so many fronts. I am sure many are not as prepared to do this as I am, but clearly the failures are on the other side of the counter and with the real professional third parties to a huge extent.

[NotCranky]

[quote=bearishgurlThe way I see it:

$75K design fees
$8K engineering fees
$27K periodic inspection fees and sign off.

The subjects of these nightmare stories you hear of that are repeatedly going ’round and ’round with the bureaucratic “code-nazis” are primarily the DIYers on a shoestring or persons that fired their architect and/or builder midstream.

[/quote]
If a private citizen threw that kind of money at architects,engineers and even contractors, to handle the “code nazis” they probably wouldn’t feel the pain or realize how screwed up the planning and building departments are. They would probably get ripped off on several items though.

Bg, I have drawn and ran my plans on three houses and have interfaced with planning, building and code compliance on many permits and other items. I have had private professionals interject and tell me that I needed expensive elements that I did not. I have fought off fees that I did not have to pay.I have fought off attempts at forced compliance of scams. I have delt with a tremendous amount of incompetence, carelessness and outright shakedowns on the part of the planning,building and code compliance departments. That you would insinuate that problems mostly arise from being a diyfer is just so wrong on so many fronts. I am sure many are not as prepared to do this as I am, but clearly the failures are on the other side of the counter and with the real professional third parties to a huge extent.

[NotCranky]

[quote=bearishgurlThe way I see it:

$75K design fees
$8K engineering fees
$27K periodic inspection fees and sign off.

The subjects of these nightmare stories you hear of that are repeatedly going ’round and ’round with the bureaucratic “code-nazis” are primarily the DIYers on a shoestring or persons that fired their architect and/or builder midstream.

[/quote]
If a private citizen threw that kind of money at architects,engineers and even contractors, to handle the “code nazis” they probably wouldn’t feel the pain or realize how screwed up the planning and building departments are. They would probably get ripped off on several items though.

Bg, I have drawn and ran my plans on three houses and have interfaced with planning, building and code compliance on many permits and other items. I have had private professionals interject and tell me that I needed expensive elements that I did not. I have fought off fees that I did not have to pay.I have fought off attempts at forced compliance of scams. I have delt with a tremendous amount of incompetence, carelessness and outright shakedowns on the part of the planning,building and code compliance departments. That you would insinuate that problems mostly arise from being a diyfer is just so wrong on so many fronts. I am sure many are not as prepared to do this as I am, but clearly the failures are on the other side of the counter and with the real professional third parties to a huge extent.

[NotCranky]

[quote=bearishgurlThe way I see it:

$75K design fees
$8K engineering fees
$27K periodic inspection fees and sign off.

The subjects of these nightmare stories you hear of that are repeatedly going ’round and ’round with the bureaucratic “code-nazis” are primarily the DIYers on a shoestring or persons that fired their architect and/or builder midstream.

[/quote]
If a private citizen threw that kind of money at architects,engineers and even contractors, to handle the “code nazis” they probably wouldn’t feel the pain or realize how screwed up the planning and building departments are. They would probably get ripped off on several items though.

Bg, I have drawn and ran my plans on three houses and have interfaced with planning, building and code compliance on many permits and other items. I have had private professionals interject and tell me that I needed expensive elements that I did not. I have fought off fees that I did not have to pay.I have fought off attempts at forced compliance of scams. I have delt with a tremendous amount of incompetence, carelessness and outright shakedowns on the part of the planning,building and code compliance departments. That you would insinuate that problems mostly arise from being a diyfer is just so wrong on so many fronts. I am sure many are not as prepared to do this as I am, but clearly the failures are on the other side of the counter and with the real professional third parties to a huge extent.

[NotCranky]

[quote=bearishgurlThe way I see it:

$75K design fees
$8K engineering fees
$27K periodic inspection fees and sign off.

The subjects of these nightmare stories you hear of that are repeatedly going ’round and ’round with the bureaucratic “code-nazis” are primarily the DIYers on a shoestring or persons that fired their architect and/or builder midstream.

[/quote]
If a private citizen threw that kind of money at architects,engineers and even contractors, to handle the “code nazis” they probably wouldn’t feel the pain or realize how screwed up the planning and building departments are. They would probably get ripped off on several items though.

Bg, I have drawn and ran my plans on three houses and have interfaced with planning, building and code compliance on many permits and other items. I have had private professionals interject and tell me that I needed expensive elements that I did not. I have fought off fees that I did not have to pay.I have fought off attempts at forced compliance of scams. I have delt with a tremendous amount of incompetence, carelessness and outright shakedowns on the part of the planning,building and code compliance departments. That you would insinuate that problems mostly arise from being a diyfer is just so wrong on so many fronts. I am sure many are not as prepared to do this as I am, but clearly the failures are on the other side of the counter and with the real professional third parties to a huge extent.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=Rustico] . . . Bg, I have drawn and ran my plans on three houses and have interfaced with planning, building and code compliance on many permits and other items. I have had private professionals interject and tell me that I needed expensive elements that I did not. I have fought off fees that I did not have to pay.I have fought off attempts at forced compliance of scams. I have delt with a tremendous amount of incompetence, carelessness and outright shakedowns on the part of the planning,building and code compliance departments. That you would insinuate that problems mostly arise from being a diyfer is just so wrong on so many fronts. I am sure many are not as prepared to do this as I am, but clearly the failures are on the other side of the counter and with the real professional third parties to a huge extent.[/quote]

I believe you, Rustico, but perhaps you have more time, patience and skill than many DIYers and also know how to “bump yourself to the head of the line,” periodically.

The “system” is not set up for weekend warrior DIY wanna bes and/or persons who have to be somewhere else 8+ hours a day, come rain or shine. Also, persons who make an excess of $200K annually might be better served to collect their $100 hr at work and use their vacation time for . . . well . . . vacations! Even staycations (to supervise construction …lol)!!

I myself have tried to use a couple of different “plan and spec” software pkgs that belonged to friends and they are not for the faint of heart or persons that don’t understand construction basics and terms. They are not all that “user-friendly” either. In addition, no matter how good you are using these pkgs, the plan you created will have to be “tweaked” for your lot by an engineer, who will put his “seal” on them after tweaking, as will all commercial plans you buy for $800 – $2,000. I don’t know how many “hand-drawn” house plans by an individual landowner are accepted outright by cities and counties but would assume that figure is low (less than 1%, except in VERY rural counties such as Inyo, where it might be up to 8%).

Here in Chula, many homeowners go to the planning counter to get the rules on fence height and setbacks for the front of their lots and perhaps are able to install a vinyl fence between themselves and a neighbor. Or other similar small jobs. A great many projects around here (of what were originally permitted as rear “room additions”) go unfinished for years when started by the homeowner themselves.

You are the exception, not the rule, Rustico. You may have a large lot in your rural/semi-rural Jamul. A homeowner in your situation can learn a LOT over the years from planning bureaucrats (out of necessity and survival). I am assuming when you purchased your most recent property, it had a dwelling unit on it (or former “dwelling unit” which could be made habitable) on it and the scope of your “building” on it was limited to a room addition, outbuilding, patios and driveways, fences, moving septic/leachfield, etc. Correct me if I’m wrong here.

Here, the OP has stated he may be interested in building a mid-century modern dwelling. Unless he himself is an architect, he will not be successful in getting any of his “plans” thru the powers-that-be, IMO.

I agree that if permabear should choose one of the plans that an architect has already made a model for and already built (such as the “wedge” example), then he would only need this plan “tweaked” for the vagaries of the lot he chose and additions/deletions. This would only cost $17K to $27K, instead of the $75K+ I allotted here for “design fees.”

Everyone’s skill-sets are different. I’m sure a lot of Piggs which they had your savvy know-how and talents, Rustico.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=Rustico] . . . Bg, I have drawn and ran my plans on three houses and have interfaced with planning, building and code compliance on many permits and other items. I have had private professionals interject and tell me that I needed expensive elements that I did not. I have fought off fees that I did not have to pay.I have fought off attempts at forced compliance of scams. I have delt with a tremendous amount of incompetence, carelessness and outright shakedowns on the part of the planning,building and code compliance departments. That you would insinuate that problems mostly arise from being a diyfer is just so wrong on so many fronts. I am sure many are not as prepared to do this as I am, but clearly the failures are on the other side of the counter and with the real professional third parties to a huge extent.[/quote]

I believe you, Rustico, but perhaps you have more time, patience and skill than many DIYers and also know how to “bump yourself to the head of the line,” periodically.

The “system” is not set up for weekend warrior DIY wanna bes and/or persons who have to be somewhere else 8+ hours a day, come rain or shine. Also, persons who make an excess of $200K annually might be better served to collect their $100 hr at work and use their vacation time for . . . well . . . vacations! Even staycations (to supervise construction …lol)!!

I myself have tried to use a couple of different “plan and spec” software pkgs that belonged to friends and they are not for the faint of heart or persons that don’t understand construction basics and terms. They are not all that “user-friendly” either. In addition, no matter how good you are using these pkgs, the plan you created will have to be “tweaked” for your lot by an engineer, who will put his “seal” on them after tweaking, as will all commercial plans you buy for $800 – $2,000. I don’t know how many “hand-drawn” house plans by an individual landowner are accepted outright by cities and counties but would assume that figure is low (less than 1%, except in VERY rural counties such as Inyo, where it might be up to 8%).

Here in Chula, many homeowners go to the planning counter to get the rules on fence height and setbacks for the front of their lots and perhaps are able to install a vinyl fence between themselves and a neighbor. Or other similar small jobs. A great many projects around here (of what were originally permitted as rear “room additions”) go unfinished for years when started by the homeowner themselves.

You are the exception, not the rule, Rustico. You may have a large lot in your rural/semi-rural Jamul. A homeowner in your situation can learn a LOT over the years from planning bureaucrats (out of necessity and survival). I am assuming when you purchased your most recent property, it had a dwelling unit on it (or former “dwelling unit” which could be made habitable) on it and the scope of your “building” on it was limited to a room addition, outbuilding, patios and driveways, fences, moving septic/leachfield, etc. Correct me if I’m wrong here.

Here, the OP has stated he may be interested in building a mid-century modern dwelling. Unless he himself is an architect, he will not be successful in getting any of his “plans” thru the powers-that-be, IMO.

I agree that if permabear should choose one of the plans that an architect has already made a model for and already built (such as the “wedge” example), then he would only need this plan “tweaked” for the vagaries of the lot he chose and additions/deletions. This would only cost $17K to $27K, instead of the $75K+ I allotted here for “design fees.”

Everyone’s skill-sets are different. I’m sure a lot of Piggs which they had your savvy know-how and talents, Rustico.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=Rustico] . . . Bg, I have drawn and ran my plans on three houses and have interfaced with planning, building and code compliance on many permits and other items. I have had private professionals interject and tell me that I needed expensive elements that I did not. I have fought off fees that I did not have to pay.I have fought off attempts at forced compliance of scams. I have delt with a tremendous amount of incompetence, carelessness and outright shakedowns on the part of the planning,building and code compliance departments. That you would insinuate that problems mostly arise from being a diyfer is just so wrong on so many fronts. I am sure many are not as prepared to do this as I am, but clearly the failures are on the other side of the counter and with the real professional third parties to a huge extent.[/quote]

I believe you, Rustico, but perhaps you have more time, patience and skill than many DIYers and also know how to “bump yourself to the head of the line,” periodically.

The “system” is not set up for weekend warrior DIY wanna bes and/or persons who have to be somewhere else 8+ hours a day, come rain or shine. Also, persons who make an excess of $200K annually might be better served to collect their $100 hr at work and use their vacation time for . . . well . . . vacations! Even staycations (to supervise construction …lol)!!

I myself have tried to use a couple of different “plan and spec” software pkgs that belonged to friends and they are not for the faint of heart or persons that don’t understand construction basics and terms. They are not all that “user-friendly” either. In addition, no matter how good you are using these pkgs, the plan you created will have to be “tweaked” for your lot by an engineer, who will put his “seal” on them after tweaking, as will all commercial plans you buy for $800 – $2,000. I don’t know how many “hand-drawn” house plans by an individual landowner are accepted outright by cities and counties but would assume that figure is low (less than 1%, except in VERY rural counties such as Inyo, where it might be up to 8%).

Here in Chula, many homeowners go to the planning counter to get the rules on fence height and setbacks for the front of their lots and perhaps are able to install a vinyl fence between themselves and a neighbor. Or other similar small jobs. A great many projects around here (of what were originally permitted as rear “room additions”) go unfinished for years when started by the homeowner themselves.

You are the exception, not the rule, Rustico. You may have a large lot in your rural/semi-rural Jamul. A homeowner in your situation can learn a LOT over the years from planning bureaucrats (out of necessity and survival). I am assuming when you purchased your most recent property, it had a dwelling unit on it (or former “dwelling unit” which could be made habitable) on it and the scope of your “building” on it was limited to a room addition, outbuilding, patios and driveways, fences, moving septic/leachfield, etc. Correct me if I’m wrong here.

Here, the OP has stated he may be interested in building a mid-century modern dwelling. Unless he himself is an architect, he will not be successful in getting any of his “plans” thru the powers-that-be, IMO.

I agree that if permabear should choose one of the plans that an architect has already made a model for and already built (such as the “wedge” example), then he would only need this plan “tweaked” for the vagaries of the lot he chose and additions/deletions. This would only cost $17K to $27K, instead of the $75K+ I allotted here for “design fees.”

Everyone’s skill-sets are different. I’m sure a lot of Piggs which they had your savvy know-how and talents, Rustico.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=Rustico] . . . Bg, I have drawn and ran my plans on three houses and have interfaced with planning, building and code compliance on many permits and other items. I have had private professionals interject and tell me that I needed expensive elements that I did not. I have fought off fees that I did not have to pay.I have fought off attempts at forced compliance of scams. I have delt with a tremendous amount of incompetence, carelessness and outright shakedowns on the part of the planning,building and code compliance departments. That you would insinuate that problems mostly arise from being a diyfer is just so wrong on so many fronts. I am sure many are not as prepared to do this as I am, but clearly the failures are on the other side of the counter and with the real professional third parties to a huge extent.[/quote]

I believe you, Rustico, but perhaps you have more time, patience and skill than many DIYers and also know how to “bump yourself to the head of the line,” periodically.

The “system” is not set up for weekend warrior DIY wanna bes and/or persons who have to be somewhere else 8+ hours a day, come rain or shine. Also, persons who make an excess of $200K annually might be better served to collect their $100 hr at work and use their vacation time for . . . well . . . vacations! Even staycations (to supervise construction …lol)!!

I myself have tried to use a couple of different “plan and spec” software pkgs that belonged to friends and they are not for the faint of heart or persons that don’t understand construction basics and terms. They are not all that “user-friendly” either. In addition, no matter how good you are using these pkgs, the plan you created will have to be “tweaked” for your lot by an engineer, who will put his “seal” on them after tweaking, as will all commercial plans you buy for $800 – $2,000. I don’t know how many “hand-drawn” house plans by an individual landowner are accepted outright by cities and counties but would assume that figure is low (less than 1%, except in VERY rural counties such as Inyo, where it might be up to 8%).

Here in Chula, many homeowners go to the planning counter to get the rules on fence height and setbacks for the front of their lots and perhaps are able to install a vinyl fence between themselves and a neighbor. Or other similar small jobs. A great many projects around here (of what were originally permitted as rear “room additions”) go unfinished for years when started by the homeowner themselves.

You are the exception, not the rule, Rustico. You may have a large lot in your rural/semi-rural Jamul. A homeowner in your situation can learn a LOT over the years from planning bureaucrats (out of necessity and survival). I am assuming when you purchased your most recent property, it had a dwelling unit on it (or former “dwelling unit” which could be made habitable) on it and the scope of your “building” on it was limited to a room addition, outbuilding, patios and driveways, fences, moving septic/leachfield, etc. Correct me if I’m wrong here.

Here, the OP has stated he may be interested in building a mid-century modern dwelling. Unless he himself is an architect, he will not be successful in getting any of his “plans” thru the powers-that-be, IMO.

I agree that if permabear should choose one of the plans that an architect has already made a model for and already built (such as the “wedge” example), then he would only need this plan “tweaked” for the vagaries of the lot he chose and additions/deletions. This would only cost $17K to $27K, instead of the $75K+ I allotted here for “design fees.”

Everyone’s skill-sets are different. I’m sure a lot of Piggs which they had your savvy know-how and talents, Rustico.

[Author]

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