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Balboa.
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August 8, 2016 at 8:15 AM #800388August 8, 2016 at 9:49 AM #800389
zk
Participant[quote=njtosd] Stop looking for someone to protect you from competition and just compete.[/quote]
I think this applies to a lot of Trump voters. The problem is that “compete” used to mean, “join a union and get an unskilled or semi-skilled job that pays a middle-class wage, do that job for 45 years, then collect a pension.” Now it means, “go to college, then fight for a job that pays a middle-class wage, struggle to pay off your student loans, then spend the rest of your life fighting for a string of jobs that pay middle-class wages, hoping that you make it to the upper-middle class, still struggling to pay off your student loans, all the while struggling to put enough into a 401k that you’re not destitute when you retire.”
It’s harder than it used to be. And people are bitter about that.
People harken back to a simpler time, but I think one thing that gets lost is that a middle class existence in the ’50s and ’60s was, from a consumer/financial perspective, not something that would satisfy a lot of people today. A 1200 s.f. house for 4 or 5 people. Maybe only one car. One 19-inch tv. No computer/cell phone/internet. Most things were more expensive, and people had less things. (The debate about whether “things” are important is a separate one. I’m talking about the difference between the financial situations of a middle-class family back then and now.) Part of the reason things were more expensive is that they were manufactured here. We sent those jobs overseas because we could get people to do them for a small fraction of what Americans were paid. And if we bring them back, the price of everything that is currently made overseas and is then made here, which a boatload of stuff – millions of boatloads, actually – doubles or triples or is multiplied by 10. So now you’re back to not being able to afford more than one small tv.
A more important factor, I think, is automation. Even if you bring manufacturing back to the United States, there aren’t going to be 1,000 people on assembly lines in a factory. There will be 25 people overseeing automation in the factory. The rich get richer. The rich can afford to build a highly automated factory and then, instead of creating 1,000 jobs and spreading the wealth, the rich guy is creating 25 jobs and keeping most of wealth for himself.
This brings me to a hypothetical scenario that, I think, merits its own thread:
http://piggington.com/hypothetical_scenario_about_jobsgovernment
Trump seems to promise to bring manufacturing jobs back to America, but it seems to me that, with automation, those jobs just don’t exist anymore at the wages Americans want for them. The only ways that things get manufactured is either overseas at minimal cost, or in a mostly automated fashion, with very few workers and, therefore, at minimal cost.
August 8, 2016 at 10:06 AM #800394FlyerInHi
GuestZk, seems to me, Trump supporters should want policies like free college, Medicare for all, universal basic income, child care, etc… They should be with Bernie Sanders.
I’m interested in the psychology and sociology of Trump’s support — Pride, bluster, badass talk, but little substance.
August 8, 2016 at 3:45 PM #800430flyer
ParticipantWith less than 20% of US households making over $100K, I’d be interested in the psychology and sociology of any voter who actually believes, in reality, not in rhetoric, that any political candidate can make a difference in their lives to a life-changing degree–which is what the candidates are selling the gullible in one form or another.
Again, it will be very interesting to see if anything changes in the future for the other 80% (the majority of voters) or if income inequality simply continues to increase, as it has for decades.
August 8, 2016 at 3:51 PM #800432Participant[quote=FlyerInHi]
I’m interested in the psychology and sociology of Trump’s support — Pride, bluster, badass talk, but little substance.[/quote][quote=flyer]With less than 20% of the US population making over $100K, I’d be interested in the psychology and sociology of any voter who actually believes, in reality, not in rhetoric, that any political candidate can make a difference in their lives to a life-changing degree.[/quote]
I think a huge part of the “reasoning” of Trump supporters is exactly this ^^^^^.
Trump supporters agree that no ordinary politician can (or will) make a difference in their lives. But Trump’s supporters think he can. I’ve heard them say, “Trump is not a politician.” The implication seems to be that the reason all these politicians have failed is that they’re politicians. Not “doers.” Compromisers, not demanders. Trump will grab the bull by the horns and punch it in the face, and give Americans back their jobs.
It’s not real complicated to explain why that won’t work, but good luck getting Trump supporters to understand, let alone agree.
August 8, 2016 at 7:17 PM #800437outtamojo
ParticipantI was asleep at the wheel,apparently I am a Trojan horse now.
August 8, 2016 at 8:20 PM #800440enron_by_the_sea
Participant[quote=outtamojo]I was asleep at the wheel,apparently I am a Trojan horse now.
So did Melania immigrate legally or illegally? There were some reports this weekend saying she was working illegally on B-1 visa. Then another one saying she may have shown fake marriage to get green card years before she actually married Donald. All of this if true should will be clear visa fraud and may render her citizenship invalid.
August 8, 2016 at 8:24 PM #800441Anonymous
Guest[quote=enron_by_the_sea]
So did Melania immigrate legally or illegally? There were some reports this weekend saying she was working illegally on B-1 visa. Then another one saying she may have shown fake marriage to get green card years before she actually married Donald. All of this if true should will be clear visa fraud and may render her citizenship invalid.[/quote]Who cares?
Now what really matters is that Obama has a half-aunt…
August 8, 2016 at 9:28 PM #800444GuestWhat I find interesting is that Melania lied about having a college degree. If you’re a man of the people, your wife would not feel the need to lie about a degree from a third rate university.
People like to say that a college degree is not all that, but so many have been found to have lied. There must be some prestige to being university educated.
August 9, 2016 at 12:22 PM #800465Guest[quote=enron_by_the_sea]
So did Melania immigrate legally or illegally? There were some reports this weekend saying she was working illegally on B-1 visa. Then another one saying she may have shown fake marriage to get green card years before she actually married Donald. All of this if true should will be clear visa fraud and may render her citizenship invalid.[/quote]
it seems pretty clear that Melania worked in the US without proper authorization. Likely she also worked in Milan and Paris on tourist travel. That would be illegal. If Donald wins there’ll likely be a congressional investigation.
Interesting how British and Irish papers have covered the story. The Irish paper said there are about 50,000 unauthorized Irish immigrants in the US.
Ivanna before could have also come from CZ on a tourist visa and stayed.
About green card based on marriage before Trump, there should be a marriage license somewhere. Journalists will dig and find it if it exists. But that does not mean the marriage was fake. Trump was a better catch so she moved on.
August 11, 2016 at 5:16 PM #800518
svelteParticipantI still can’t figure Trump out. I don’t think he is stupid. So why exactly is he doing what he’s doing?
Theories I haven’t eliminated yet:
– He wants to throw the election to the Dems. (he’s doing a bang-up job)– He loves the attention. (again, bang-up job)
– He has equal parts crazy to go with the intelligence. (totally plausible)
I thought maybe there was a fourth option that he saw himself as more popular than he is, but his recent statements that it’s OK if he loses lean me away from that theory.
August 11, 2016 at 7:06 PM #800522GuestI’ts pretty easy really: He lacks the personality for politics.
He’s used to being the boss. He’s done a lot of negotiation, but always from a position of relative power. And he generally only had to win over one person at a time in a tangible ‘deal.’
There is deal making in politics, but there’s a lot more as well.
August 12, 2016 at 6:45 AM #800537svelteParticipant[quote=harvey]I’ts pretty easy really: He lacks the personality for politics.
He’s used to being the boss. He’s done a lot of negotiation, but always from a position of relative power. And he generally only had to win over one person at a time in a tangible ‘deal.’
There is deal making in politics, but there’s a lot more as well.[/quote]
The problem with that theory is that smart person would have figured this out after the first two or three missteps. He’s done a few dozen of them now.
So either my premise is incorrect and he really isn’t that bright, or this theory don’t hunt.
August 12, 2016 at 7:31 AM #800540SK in CV
Participant[quote=svelte][quote=harvey]I’ts pretty easy really: He lacks the personality for politics.
He’s used to being the boss. He’s done a lot of negotiation, but always from a position of relative power. And he generally only had to win over one person at a time in a tangible ‘deal.’
There is deal making in politics, but there’s a lot more as well.[/quote]
The problem with that theory is that smart person would have figured this out after the first two or three missteps. He’s done a few dozen of them now.
So either my premise is incorrect and he really isn’t that bright, or this theory don’t hunt.[/quote]
I think it’s a combination of your 2nd and 3rd points. I’m not sure he has all that much intelligence, but whatever is there, is always overshadowed by his narcissism. Always.
He’s stayed on script only a few times, reading from notes or a teleprompter. He’s stiff, unenergetic, boring. But when he’s just winging it, he’s responding to the crowd. And his fans, the ones that show up at his rallies, are rabid racists and hateful ideologues. And whatever gets them riled up is where he goes. Every time. If they cheer him, he’s succeeded. It’s a drug he can’t stay away from.
In 1 on 1 interviews, he’s lost. He really doesn’t have a clue what he’s talking about. On every subject. There isn’t a single subject in which he’s well versed. None. The only place he has a chance is in front of a crowd. Which is why he thinks he’s doing well. His asshole followers love him, so the narcissist thinks that means everyone does.
August 12, 2016 at 7:33 AM #800539GuestHow many missteps has he really made? It depends upon who’s counting. When you are surrounded by supporters the missteps are harder to see.
His big strategic mistake was running with the bravado and exaggeration until it obviously crossed any reasonable line (e.g. the “Obama founded ISIS” claim.)
I know a number of people that once perceived Trump as someone who was cocky but rational. I never really liked him, but I was almost willing to give him the benefit of that doubt. Many were expecting him to tone it down and become more measured as he accepted the responsibilities of being a national leader. That never happened, and now wee see solid evidence that he’s not in control of himself.
It’s pretty clear now that Trump doesn’t see being president as a responsibility. In his mind, it’s another trophy that he deserves to win.
It’s a common folly: Ego overwhelms intelligence.
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