[OT] WSJ: “Why Chinese Mothers are Superior”

[briansd1]

Regarding playing the piano or the violin, I believe that there’s something romantic and beautiful about that.

All else being equal, I would love it my girlfriend or wife played the piano or violin. If I had kids, I would love them to play classical music.

It used to be that, in Western education, music, Latin and Greek were part of a well-rounded education. I was talking to a gal from Poland and she said told me she learned all that back home before immigrating to America.

[ctr70]

Rich your are right, my bad, my apologies about highjacking the thread with politics. I shouldn’t have mentioned politics in my post and I would edit and remove that one part of my post, but not sure I can do it with this forum software?

[ctr70]

Rich your are right, my bad, my apologies about highjacking the thread with politics. I shouldn’t have mentioned politics in my post and I would edit and remove that one part of my post, but not sure I can do it with this forum software?

[ctr70]

Rich your are right, my bad, my apologies about highjacking the thread with politics. I shouldn’t have mentioned politics in my post and I would edit and remove that one part of my post, but not sure I can do it with this forum software?

[ctr70]

Rich your are right, my bad, my apologies about highjacking the thread with politics. I shouldn’t have mentioned politics in my post and I would edit and remove that one part of my post, but not sure I can do it with this forum software?

[ctr70]

Rich your are right, my bad, my apologies about highjacking the thread with politics. I shouldn’t have mentioned politics in my post and I would edit and remove that one part of my post, but not sure I can do it with this forum software?

[CDMA ENG]

CE[/quote]

I know what you meant…
but but but but… I hope Motorola isn’t the poster child of how U.S. companies will end up…

Me thinks Motorola was a prime example of what happens when you let non-techie folks try to run a techie company (into the ground)…That, and what happens when you let really nerdy techies leave……. They end up at Apple making the iPhone.

Hey now, I know. I like MOT too. Excuse me, I meant MMI and MSI now. And like everyone on else in the business, I paid my dues there some time too.. But, I think we’re all hoping Sanjay Jha turns this puppy around.[/quote]

Hijack.

The people that ran Moto in its hey day were all engineers. They had no Havard Biz Grads except the ones that came out of Engineering school.

You can not maintain a company when the product you make for 15 cents is made in Taiwan for four. That was the start of thier demise.

What has happened in its last years is something different and is a shadow of its former self.

UCGal may disagree… So might my wife.

CE

NO-7 Technican (College)

[CDMA ENG]

CE[/quote]

I know what you meant…
but but but but… I hope Motorola isn’t the poster child of how U.S. companies will end up…

Me thinks Motorola was a prime example of what happens when you let non-techie folks try to run a techie company (into the ground)…That, and what happens when you let really nerdy techies leave……. They end up at Apple making the iPhone.

Hey now, I know. I like MOT too. Excuse me, I meant MMI and MSI now. And like everyone on else in the business, I paid my dues there some time too.. But, I think we’re all hoping Sanjay Jha turns this puppy around.[/quote]

Hijack.

The people that ran Moto in its hey day were all engineers. They had no Havard Biz Grads except the ones that came out of Engineering school.

You can not maintain a company when the product you make for 15 cents is made in Taiwan for four. That was the start of thier demise.

What has happened in its last years is something different and is a shadow of its former self.

UCGal may disagree… So might my wife.

CE

NO-7 Technican (College)

[CDMA ENG]

CE[/quote]

I know what you meant…
but but but but… I hope Motorola isn’t the poster child of how U.S. companies will end up…

Me thinks Motorola was a prime example of what happens when you let non-techie folks try to run a techie company (into the ground)…That, and what happens when you let really nerdy techies leave……. They end up at Apple making the iPhone.

Hey now, I know. I like MOT too. Excuse me, I meant MMI and MSI now. And like everyone on else in the business, I paid my dues there some time too.. But, I think we’re all hoping Sanjay Jha turns this puppy around.[/quote]

Hijack.

The people that ran Moto in its hey day were all engineers. They had no Havard Biz Grads except the ones that came out of Engineering school.

You can not maintain a company when the product you make for 15 cents is made in Taiwan for four. That was the start of thier demise.

What has happened in its last years is something different and is a shadow of its former self.

UCGal may disagree… So might my wife.

CE

NO-7 Technican (College)

[CDMA ENG]

CE[/quote]

I know what you meant…
but but but but… I hope Motorola isn’t the poster child of how U.S. companies will end up…

Me thinks Motorola was a prime example of what happens when you let non-techie folks try to run a techie company (into the ground)…That, and what happens when you let really nerdy techies leave……. They end up at Apple making the iPhone.

Hey now, I know. I like MOT too. Excuse me, I meant MMI and MSI now. And like everyone on else in the business, I paid my dues there some time too.. But, I think we’re all hoping Sanjay Jha turns this puppy around.[/quote]

Hijack.

The people that ran Moto in its hey day were all engineers. They had no Havard Biz Grads except the ones that came out of Engineering school.

You can not maintain a company when the product you make for 15 cents is made in Taiwan for four. That was the start of thier demise.

What has happened in its last years is something different and is a shadow of its former self.

UCGal may disagree… So might my wife.

CE

NO-7 Technican (College)

[CDMA ENG]

CE[/quote]

I know what you meant…
but but but but… I hope Motorola isn’t the poster child of how U.S. companies will end up…

Me thinks Motorola was a prime example of what happens when you let non-techie folks try to run a techie company (into the ground)…That, and what happens when you let really nerdy techies leave……. They end up at Apple making the iPhone.

Hey now, I know. I like MOT too. Excuse me, I meant MMI and MSI now. And like everyone on else in the business, I paid my dues there some time too.. But, I think we’re all hoping Sanjay Jha turns this puppy around.[/quote]

Hijack.

The people that ran Moto in its hey day were all engineers. They had no Havard Biz Grads except the ones that came out of Engineering school.

You can not maintain a company when the product you make for 15 cents is made in Taiwan for four. That was the start of thier demise.

What has happened in its last years is something different and is a shadow of its former self.

UCGal may disagree… So might my wife.

CE

NO-7 Technican (College)

[jpinpb]

[quote=sdduuuude]The fact of the matter is – your career ends just below the manager level if you don’t know how to deal with people. If I’m hiring people and I need an engineer to work long hours, not get paid very much and do an excellent job implementing tedious crap – I’m going to hire the “Asain” guy. But if I need someone who is creative, who knows how to get others to work hard, to secure funding for a project, to design or manage others (i.e. to do a higher level job), I’m going to hire the guy who learned how to be social, friendly, persuasive, tactful, creative, etc. If being stuck doing tedious crap is your idea of success, then have at it.

From this perspective, when it comes to playing the violin for three hours by yourself or learning how to work as a team with your friends to get a ball in a net, I’m thinking the soccer game is not such a bad option.

At first glance, being a technical master may sound like success, but it keeps you out of management forever.

——-

The author of the article actually makes some interesting points that I agree with. I also like that she prefaced everything with

[quote article]I’m using the term “Chinese mother” loosely. I know some Korean, Indian, Jamaican, Irish and Ghanaian parents who qualify too. Conversely, I know some mothers of Chinese heritage, almost always born in the West, who are not Chinese mothers, by choice or otherwise. I’m also using the term “Western parents” loosely. Western parents come in all varieties.[/quote]

She makes a great point here about Western parents: “They worry about how their children will feel if they fail at something, and they constantly try to reassure their children about how good they are notwithstanding a mediocre performance on a test or at a recital.” I think kids gain self esteem when they know what they are good at and what they aren’t so good at. Knowing the truth is important and I have no issues telling my kids when they make a mistake or even telling them that they aren’t very good at something. I just don’t make a big deal out of it.

On the other hand – while I appreciate pushing kids to try things they may think are too difficult(chess as a 4-year old, for example), I find her justification for “coercion” (Lulu’s piano piece) is really a matter of her not being able to teach very vell. There is a distinction between believing kids can perform well and using bone-headed techniques get them to perform well.
And I also have to say her empty threats were pathetic.

The fact that her daughter “snuggled up to her” afterward doesn’t cut it for me. Even physically abused children still love their parents.

I also think it is equally pathetic that Jed was going to let her give up and that her mom couldn’t find a more positive way to teach her. Sounds like the worst of both worlds to me.

Just because Lulu succeeded doesn’t mean that being an ass was the only way to make it happen. As a drummer and a juggler, I can say that taking a break from a difficult task can help you learn it faster. Also, teaching some more basic techniques before trying a difficult 2-hand pattern helps alot as well.[/quote]

I agree w/everything you said. Ideally, someone that is smart and social are best. If someone has a GPA of 3.5 and social skills, then I think that is more desirable than a hermit w/a GPA of 4. We did have a C student that somehow became President. What does that tell you?

brian – I’d also say that the measure of success does not rely soley on financial wealth.

[quote=AK]These days I’d say networking and people skills are key to getting even the first job out of college … not to mention prestigious internships.

Test scores, GPA, education, etc., give you a better chance of establishing those essential connections and recommendations. But they’re not enough in and of themselves.[/quote]

Also agree.

And I really question the self-esteem of any kid who has been subjected to this by parents. I understand kids wanting to have parents be proud of them. If a parent expresses disappointment at an A-, it must be so frustrating for kids. You absorb that as an adult and set sometimes unrealistic goals for yourself. Seems like a good source of unhappiness and even resentment.

I can maybe even understand being in that country b/c that is the mentality of all and it is more uniform thinking. But in this country w/a wide variety of culture, you can’t help but see how others live. Some people cheat through life and do better. Others steal from people and live like kings. Some drug lords live like kings. Football players are paid a lot of money and probably are not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Think about some famous people of our times who dropped out of college and started businesses in garages who are now multi-millionaires.

[jpinpb]

[quote=sdduuuude]The fact of the matter is – your career ends just below the manager level if you don’t know how to deal with people. If I’m hiring people and I need an engineer to work long hours, not get paid very much and do an excellent job implementing tedious crap – I’m going to hire the “Asain” guy. But if I need someone who is creative, who knows how to get others to work hard, to secure funding for a project, to design or manage others (i.e. to do a higher level job), I’m going to hire the guy who learned how to be social, friendly, persuasive, tactful, creative, etc. If being stuck doing tedious crap is your idea of success, then have at it.

From this perspective, when it comes to playing the violin for three hours by yourself or learning how to work as a team with your friends to get a ball in a net, I’m thinking the soccer game is not such a bad option.

At first glance, being a technical master may sound like success, but it keeps you out of management forever.

——-

The author of the article actually makes some interesting points that I agree with. I also like that she prefaced everything with

[quote article]I’m using the term “Chinese mother” loosely. I know some Korean, Indian, Jamaican, Irish and Ghanaian parents who qualify too. Conversely, I know some mothers of Chinese heritage, almost always born in the West, who are not Chinese mothers, by choice or otherwise. I’m also using the term “Western parents” loosely. Western parents come in all varieties.[/quote]

She makes a great point here about Western parents: “They worry about how their children will feel if they fail at something, and they constantly try to reassure their children about how good they are notwithstanding a mediocre performance on a test or at a recital.” I think kids gain self esteem when they know what they are good at and what they aren’t so good at. Knowing the truth is important and I have no issues telling my kids when they make a mistake or even telling them that they aren’t very good at something. I just don’t make a big deal out of it.

On the other hand – while I appreciate pushing kids to try things they may think are too difficult(chess as a 4-year old, for example), I find her justification for “coercion” (Lulu’s piano piece) is really a matter of her not being able to teach very vell. There is a distinction between believing kids can perform well and using bone-headed techniques get them to perform well.
And I also have to say her empty threats were pathetic.

The fact that her daughter “snuggled up to her” afterward doesn’t cut it for me. Even physically abused children still love their parents.

I also think it is equally pathetic that Jed was going to let her give up and that her mom couldn’t find a more positive way to teach her. Sounds like the worst of both worlds to me.

Just because Lulu succeeded doesn’t mean that being an ass was the only way to make it happen. As a drummer and a juggler, I can say that taking a break from a difficult task can help you learn it faster. Also, teaching some more basic techniques before trying a difficult 2-hand pattern helps alot as well.[/quote]

I agree w/everything you said. Ideally, someone that is smart and social are best. If someone has a GPA of 3.5 and social skills, then I think that is more desirable than a hermit w/a GPA of 4. We did have a C student that somehow became President. What does that tell you?

brian – I’d also say that the measure of success does not rely soley on financial wealth.

[quote=AK]These days I’d say networking and people skills are key to getting even the first job out of college … not to mention prestigious internships.

Test scores, GPA, education, etc., give you a better chance of establishing those essential connections and recommendations. But they’re not enough in and of themselves.[/quote]

Also agree.

And I really question the self-esteem of any kid who has been subjected to this by parents. I understand kids wanting to have parents be proud of them. If a parent expresses disappointment at an A-, it must be so frustrating for kids. You absorb that as an adult and set sometimes unrealistic goals for yourself. Seems like a good source of unhappiness and even resentment.

I can maybe even understand being in that country b/c that is the mentality of all and it is more uniform thinking. But in this country w/a wide variety of culture, you can’t help but see how others live. Some people cheat through life and do better. Others steal from people and live like kings. Some drug lords live like kings. Football players are paid a lot of money and probably are not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Think about some famous people of our times who dropped out of college and started businesses in garages who are now multi-millionaires.

[jpinpb]

[quote=sdduuuude]The fact of the matter is – your career ends just below the manager level if you don’t know how to deal with people. If I’m hiring people and I need an engineer to work long hours, not get paid very much and do an excellent job implementing tedious crap – I’m going to hire the “Asain” guy. But if I need someone who is creative, who knows how to get others to work hard, to secure funding for a project, to design or manage others (i.e. to do a higher level job), I’m going to hire the guy who learned how to be social, friendly, persuasive, tactful, creative, etc. If being stuck doing tedious crap is your idea of success, then have at it.

From this perspective, when it comes to playing the violin for three hours by yourself or learning how to work as a team with your friends to get a ball in a net, I’m thinking the soccer game is not such a bad option.

At first glance, being a technical master may sound like success, but it keeps you out of management forever.

——-

The author of the article actually makes some interesting points that I agree with. I also like that she prefaced everything with

[quote article]I’m using the term “Chinese mother” loosely. I know some Korean, Indian, Jamaican, Irish and Ghanaian parents who qualify too. Conversely, I know some mothers of Chinese heritage, almost always born in the West, who are not Chinese mothers, by choice or otherwise. I’m also using the term “Western parents” loosely. Western parents come in all varieties.[/quote]

She makes a great point here about Western parents: “They worry about how their children will feel if they fail at something, and they constantly try to reassure their children about how good they are notwithstanding a mediocre performance on a test or at a recital.” I think kids gain self esteem when they know what they are good at and what they aren’t so good at. Knowing the truth is important and I have no issues telling my kids when they make a mistake or even telling them that they aren’t very good at something. I just don’t make a big deal out of it.

On the other hand – while I appreciate pushing kids to try things they may think are too difficult(chess as a 4-year old, for example), I find her justification for “coercion” (Lulu’s piano piece) is really a matter of her not being able to teach very vell. There is a distinction between believing kids can perform well and using bone-headed techniques get them to perform well.
And I also have to say her empty threats were pathetic.

The fact that her daughter “snuggled up to her” afterward doesn’t cut it for me. Even physically abused children still love their parents.

I also think it is equally pathetic that Jed was going to let her give up and that her mom couldn’t find a more positive way to teach her. Sounds like the worst of both worlds to me.

Just because Lulu succeeded doesn’t mean that being an ass was the only way to make it happen. As a drummer and a juggler, I can say that taking a break from a difficult task can help you learn it faster. Also, teaching some more basic techniques before trying a difficult 2-hand pattern helps alot as well.[/quote]

I agree w/everything you said. Ideally, someone that is smart and social are best. If someone has a GPA of 3.5 and social skills, then I think that is more desirable than a hermit w/a GPA of 4. We did have a C student that somehow became President. What does that tell you?

brian – I’d also say that the measure of success does not rely soley on financial wealth.

[quote=AK]These days I’d say networking and people skills are key to getting even the first job out of college … not to mention prestigious internships.

Test scores, GPA, education, etc., give you a better chance of establishing those essential connections and recommendations. But they’re not enough in and of themselves.[/quote]

Also agree.

And I really question the self-esteem of any kid who has been subjected to this by parents. I understand kids wanting to have parents be proud of them. If a parent expresses disappointment at an A-, it must be so frustrating for kids. You absorb that as an adult and set sometimes unrealistic goals for yourself. Seems like a good source of unhappiness and even resentment.

I can maybe even understand being in that country b/c that is the mentality of all and it is more uniform thinking. But in this country w/a wide variety of culture, you can’t help but see how others live. Some people cheat through life and do better. Others steal from people and live like kings. Some drug lords live like kings. Football players are paid a lot of money and probably are not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Think about some famous people of our times who dropped out of college and started businesses in garages who are now multi-millionaires.

[jpinpb]

[quote=sdduuuude]The fact of the matter is – your career ends just below the manager level if you don’t know how to deal with people. If I’m hiring people and I need an engineer to work long hours, not get paid very much and do an excellent job implementing tedious crap – I’m going to hire the “Asain” guy. But if I need someone who is creative, who knows how to get others to work hard, to secure funding for a project, to design or manage others (i.e. to do a higher level job), I’m going to hire the guy who learned how to be social, friendly, persuasive, tactful, creative, etc. If being stuck doing tedious crap is your idea of success, then have at it.

From this perspective, when it comes to playing the violin for three hours by yourself or learning how to work as a team with your friends to get a ball in a net, I’m thinking the soccer game is not such a bad option.

At first glance, being a technical master may sound like success, but it keeps you out of management forever.

——-

The author of the article actually makes some interesting points that I agree with. I also like that she prefaced everything with

[quote article]I’m using the term “Chinese mother” loosely. I know some Korean, Indian, Jamaican, Irish and Ghanaian parents who qualify too. Conversely, I know some mothers of Chinese heritage, almost always born in the West, who are not Chinese mothers, by choice or otherwise. I’m also using the term “Western parents” loosely. Western parents come in all varieties.[/quote]

She makes a great point here about Western parents: “They worry about how their children will feel if they fail at something, and they constantly try to reassure their children about how good they are notwithstanding a mediocre performance on a test or at a recital.” I think kids gain self esteem when they know what they are good at and what they aren’t so good at. Knowing the truth is important and I have no issues telling my kids when they make a mistake or even telling them that they aren’t very good at something. I just don’t make a big deal out of it.

On the other hand – while I appreciate pushing kids to try things they may think are too difficult(chess as a 4-year old, for example), I find her justification for “coercion” (Lulu’s piano piece) is really a matter of her not being able to teach very vell. There is a distinction between believing kids can perform well and using bone-headed techniques get them to perform well.
And I also have to say her empty threats were pathetic.

The fact that her daughter “snuggled up to her” afterward doesn’t cut it for me. Even physically abused children still love their parents.

I also think it is equally pathetic that Jed was going to let her give up and that her mom couldn’t find a more positive way to teach her. Sounds like the worst of both worlds to me.

Just because Lulu succeeded doesn’t mean that being an ass was the only way to make it happen. As a drummer and a juggler, I can say that taking a break from a difficult task can help you learn it faster. Also, teaching some more basic techniques before trying a difficult 2-hand pattern helps alot as well.[/quote]

I agree w/everything you said. Ideally, someone that is smart and social are best. If someone has a GPA of 3.5 and social skills, then I think that is more desirable than a hermit w/a GPA of 4. We did have a C student that somehow became President. What does that tell you?

brian – I’d also say that the measure of success does not rely soley on financial wealth.

[quote=AK]These days I’d say networking and people skills are key to getting even the first job out of college … not to mention prestigious internships.

Test scores, GPA, education, etc., give you a better chance of establishing those essential connections and recommendations. But they’re not enough in and of themselves.[/quote]

Also agree.

And I really question the self-esteem of any kid who has been subjected to this by parents. I understand kids wanting to have parents be proud of them. If a parent expresses disappointment at an A-, it must be so frustrating for kids. You absorb that as an adult and set sometimes unrealistic goals for yourself. Seems like a good source of unhappiness and even resentment.

I can maybe even understand being in that country b/c that is the mentality of all and it is more uniform thinking. But in this country w/a wide variety of culture, you can’t help but see how others live. Some people cheat through life and do better. Others steal from people and live like kings. Some drug lords live like kings. Football players are paid a lot of money and probably are not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Think about some famous people of our times who dropped out of college and started businesses in garages who are now multi-millionaires.

[Author]

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