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briansd1.
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January 11, 2011 at 9:22 AM #652297January 11, 2011 at 9:26 AM #651188
nocommonsense
Participant[quote=sdduuuude]The fact of the matter is – your career ends just below the manager level if you don’t know how to deal with people. If I’m hiring people and I need an engineer to work long hours, not get paid very much and do an excellent job implementing tedious crap – I’m going to hire the “Asain” guy. But if I need someone who is creative, who knows how to get others to work hard, to secure funding for a project, to design or manage others (i.e. to do a higher level job), I’m going to hire the guy who learned how to be social, friendly, persuasive, tactful, creative, etc. If being stuck doing tedious crap is your idea of success, then have at it.
[/quote]You have some good points. But I think you underestimate the glass ceiling effect. A person of different cultural background WILL have a much more difficult time getting into management, period. It’s not necessarily discrimination but people always feel more comfortable around people who look like them and share a similar cultural background. That’s natural. Management is an exclusive club that takes a lot of things going right simultaneously technical or not, for a person to get into. The hyperthetical “asian” in your example WILL have a much lower chance EVEN if he has all those people skills.
On the other hand, look around, how many of your main stream non-asian managers are “creative” and “good with people”. Give me a break.
January 11, 2011 at 9:26 AM #651256Participant[quote=sdduuuude]The fact of the matter is – your career ends just below the manager level if you don’t know how to deal with people. If I’m hiring people and I need an engineer to work long hours, not get paid very much and do an excellent job implementing tedious crap – I’m going to hire the “Asain” guy. But if I need someone who is creative, who knows how to get others to work hard, to secure funding for a project, to design or manage others (i.e. to do a higher level job), I’m going to hire the guy who learned how to be social, friendly, persuasive, tactful, creative, etc. If being stuck doing tedious crap is your idea of success, then have at it.
[/quote]You have some good points. But I think you underestimate the glass ceiling effect. A person of different cultural background WILL have a much more difficult time getting into management, period. It’s not necessarily discrimination but people always feel more comfortable around people who look like them and share a similar cultural background. That’s natural. Management is an exclusive club that takes a lot of things going right simultaneously technical or not, for a person to get into. The hyperthetical “asian” in your example WILL have a much lower chance EVEN if he has all those people skills.
On the other hand, look around, how many of your main stream non-asian managers are “creative” and “good with people”. Give me a break.
January 11, 2011 at 9:26 AM #651837Participant[quote=sdduuuude]The fact of the matter is – your career ends just below the manager level if you don’t know how to deal with people. If I’m hiring people and I need an engineer to work long hours, not get paid very much and do an excellent job implementing tedious crap – I’m going to hire the “Asain” guy. But if I need someone who is creative, who knows how to get others to work hard, to secure funding for a project, to design or manage others (i.e. to do a higher level job), I’m going to hire the guy who learned how to be social, friendly, persuasive, tactful, creative, etc. If being stuck doing tedious crap is your idea of success, then have at it.
[/quote]You have some good points. But I think you underestimate the glass ceiling effect. A person of different cultural background WILL have a much more difficult time getting into management, period. It’s not necessarily discrimination but people always feel more comfortable around people who look like them and share a similar cultural background. That’s natural. Management is an exclusive club that takes a lot of things going right simultaneously technical or not, for a person to get into. The hyperthetical “asian” in your example WILL have a much lower chance EVEN if he has all those people skills.
On the other hand, look around, how many of your main stream non-asian managers are “creative” and “good with people”. Give me a break.
January 11, 2011 at 9:26 AM #651973Participant[quote=sdduuuude]The fact of the matter is – your career ends just below the manager level if you don’t know how to deal with people. If I’m hiring people and I need an engineer to work long hours, not get paid very much and do an excellent job implementing tedious crap – I’m going to hire the “Asain” guy. But if I need someone who is creative, who knows how to get others to work hard, to secure funding for a project, to design or manage others (i.e. to do a higher level job), I’m going to hire the guy who learned how to be social, friendly, persuasive, tactful, creative, etc. If being stuck doing tedious crap is your idea of success, then have at it.
[/quote]You have some good points. But I think you underestimate the glass ceiling effect. A person of different cultural background WILL have a much more difficult time getting into management, period. It’s not necessarily discrimination but people always feel more comfortable around people who look like them and share a similar cultural background. That’s natural. Management is an exclusive club that takes a lot of things going right simultaneously technical or not, for a person to get into. The hyperthetical “asian” in your example WILL have a much lower chance EVEN if he has all those people skills.
On the other hand, look around, how many of your main stream non-asian managers are “creative” and “good with people”. Give me a break.
January 11, 2011 at 9:26 AM #652302Participant[quote=sdduuuude]The fact of the matter is – your career ends just below the manager level if you don’t know how to deal with people. If I’m hiring people and I need an engineer to work long hours, not get paid very much and do an excellent job implementing tedious crap – I’m going to hire the “Asain” guy. But if I need someone who is creative, who knows how to get others to work hard, to secure funding for a project, to design or manage others (i.e. to do a higher level job), I’m going to hire the guy who learned how to be social, friendly, persuasive, tactful, creative, etc. If being stuck doing tedious crap is your idea of success, then have at it.
[/quote]You have some good points. But I think you underestimate the glass ceiling effect. A person of different cultural background WILL have a much more difficult time getting into management, period. It’s not necessarily discrimination but people always feel more comfortable around people who look like them and share a similar cultural background. That’s natural. Management is an exclusive club that takes a lot of things going right simultaneously technical or not, for a person to get into. The hyperthetical “asian” in your example WILL have a much lower chance EVEN if he has all those people skills.
On the other hand, look around, how many of your main stream non-asian managers are “creative” and “good with people”. Give me a break.
January 11, 2011 at 9:38 AM #651198sdduuuude
Participant[quote=ctr70]I thought that was a GREAT article! One that we all can learn a lot from. About having high standards.[/quote]
Again – I think that is the positive aspect of the article: expecting more from kids and believing they can do it.
However, the downside is the negative techniques used to get them to perform better.
They don’t go hand in hand, as the author would lead us to believe.
You can believe in your kids, encourage them to perform well beyond a level they would expect from themselves, but teach them in a more positive manner.
“Tact” is not an option, apparently. My favorite definition of “tact” is “making a point without making an enemy.”
January 11, 2011 at 9:38 AM #651266Participant[quote=ctr70]I thought that was a GREAT article! One that we all can learn a lot from. About having high standards.[/quote]
Again – I think that is the positive aspect of the article: expecting more from kids and believing they can do it.
However, the downside is the negative techniques used to get them to perform better.
They don’t go hand in hand, as the author would lead us to believe.
You can believe in your kids, encourage them to perform well beyond a level they would expect from themselves, but teach them in a more positive manner.
“Tact” is not an option, apparently. My favorite definition of “tact” is “making a point without making an enemy.”
January 11, 2011 at 9:38 AM #651847Participant[quote=ctr70]I thought that was a GREAT article! One that we all can learn a lot from. About having high standards.[/quote]
Again – I think that is the positive aspect of the article: expecting more from kids and believing they can do it.
However, the downside is the negative techniques used to get them to perform better.
They don’t go hand in hand, as the author would lead us to believe.
You can believe in your kids, encourage them to perform well beyond a level they would expect from themselves, but teach them in a more positive manner.
“Tact” is not an option, apparently. My favorite definition of “tact” is “making a point without making an enemy.”
January 11, 2011 at 9:38 AM #651983Participant[quote=ctr70]I thought that was a GREAT article! One that we all can learn a lot from. About having high standards.[/quote]
Again – I think that is the positive aspect of the article: expecting more from kids and believing they can do it.
However, the downside is the negative techniques used to get them to perform better.
They don’t go hand in hand, as the author would lead us to believe.
You can believe in your kids, encourage them to perform well beyond a level they would expect from themselves, but teach them in a more positive manner.
“Tact” is not an option, apparently. My favorite definition of “tact” is “making a point without making an enemy.”
January 11, 2011 at 9:38 AM #652312Participant[quote=ctr70]I thought that was a GREAT article! One that we all can learn a lot from. About having high standards.[/quote]
Again – I think that is the positive aspect of the article: expecting more from kids and believing they can do it.
However, the downside is the negative techniques used to get them to perform better.
They don’t go hand in hand, as the author would lead us to believe.
You can believe in your kids, encourage them to perform well beyond a level they would expect from themselves, but teach them in a more positive manner.
“Tact” is not an option, apparently. My favorite definition of “tact” is “making a point without making an enemy.”
January 11, 2011 at 9:39 AM #651203Participant[quote=briansd1][quote=sdduuuude]I’m going to hire the guy who learned how to be social, friendly, persuasive, tactful, creative, etc. [/quote]
You make a good point. But our world is becoming a lot more objective in the sense that we want to see certifiable results and hard numbers.[/quote]
Yeah – like in sales, where you have to be able to understand people.
January 11, 2011 at 9:39 AM #651271Participant[quote=briansd1][quote=sdduuuude]I’m going to hire the guy who learned how to be social, friendly, persuasive, tactful, creative, etc. [/quote]
You make a good point. But our world is becoming a lot more objective in the sense that we want to see certifiable results and hard numbers.[/quote]
Yeah – like in sales, where you have to be able to understand people.
January 11, 2011 at 9:39 AM #651852Participant[quote=briansd1][quote=sdduuuude]I’m going to hire the guy who learned how to be social, friendly, persuasive, tactful, creative, etc. [/quote]
You make a good point. But our world is becoming a lot more objective in the sense that we want to see certifiable results and hard numbers.[/quote]
Yeah – like in sales, where you have to be able to understand people.
January 11, 2011 at 9:39 AM #651988Participant[quote=briansd1][quote=sdduuuude]I’m going to hire the guy who learned how to be social, friendly, persuasive, tactful, creative, etc. [/quote]
You make a good point. But our world is becoming a lot more objective in the sense that we want to see certifiable results and hard numbers.[/quote]
Yeah – like in sales, where you have to be able to understand people.
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