OT: Teacher Tenure Ruled Unconstitutional in CA

[CA renter]

[quote=EconProf]Today’s copy of USA Today has some interesting data points about the status quo with existing tenure and unions in CA:
1. An average of 2.2 teachers a year are dismissed for unsatisfactory performance in a state where 275,000 teachers work.
2. A CA teacher has a better chance of being struck by lightning than being fired for incompetence.
3. A teacher in CA can gain what amounts to lifetime job protection in less than two years–the deadline for deciding whether to give tenure to new, probationary teachers. When layoffs occur, the newest teachers are the first to go, even if they are top performers. Seniority rules.
This is the status quo that union defenders have to answer for. Now that parents, employers, and the broader public is demanding change, I think that is a good thing. And I really don’t mind if rich people are among those advocating change. Let’s look at the merits of the arguments, not who is pushing for the needed reforms.[/quote]

You think that unions and teachers should be scrutinized, but the mega-millionaires and billionaires who are pushing the anti-union message shouldn’t be scrutinized? Oh, hell no! More than anything, we need to get the word out about who is behind the anti-union message and why they are pushing this message. And it has nothing at all to do with what’s right for students or taxpayers!

In this post, you acknowledge that the non-tenured teachers are more heavily concentrated in the poor and poorly-performing schools. Doesn’t this contradict your entire message about unions and tenure putting these students at a disadvantage? Wouldn’t those non-tenured teachers want to “work harder” in order to avoid being terminated?

So, again, I’m asking you: Where is the evidence; where are the statistics and data — taking into account IQ/SES/parental resources — that shows that teachers’ unions and/or tenure have a negative impact on student outcomes? Answer this question, and then we can continue with the conversation once we have more information.

[CA renter]

[quote=UCGal]
I agree that students have different abilities to learn.

But with no metrics in place – teachers are not judged on whether the students learn anything. If there is a positive delta in what the student knows at the end of the year, vs what they knew at the beginning of the year – REGARDLESS of where they started – then the student made progress.

I have a friend with a child with significant learning disabilities. My friend has had to push hard to make sure that appropriate material is given to her son… Some of the teachers would just park him in a corner. My own experience is that a less than stellar teacher can stagnate the learning of a gifted student. Rather than giving more depth/breadth, or alternate material, to a student that has already mastered the grade level material – he was parked in the corner. My son ended up hating school because it was boring and unchallenging. (I changed schools after this. He totally changed his outlook after I got him out of that environment.)

If a program is developed where students are pushed to learn from where they are – to improve – then all students are learning. Right now the system is set to teach to the medium… and fails the kids at either end of the spectrum.

Obviously there could be factors put in for kids with 504s and/or IEPs so that the teacher is given a pass if the improvement is less for the kids with learning disabilities. But improvement and learning should absolutely be the end goal for every student. Not parking in a corner.[/quote]

Yes, all students should be making progress throughout the year, and it should be measurable progress, but the gifted child will learn perhaps 3-10 times (or more) what the learning disabled or low IQ student will learn in a given year, and this differential gets magnified as the years progress.

Many teachers would LOVE to track students by ability so that they wouldn’t have to “teach to the middle,” but as I’ve noted in the post above, that’s not legal, and some would argue that it’s also not moral or ethical. But even if we did track, the teachers would still have to teach to the middle of that classroom’s bell curve. The difference between someone with an IQ at the 99th percentile and someone with an IQ at the 99.9th percentile is HUGE. While a teacher could certainly make sure that the students have material that would enable them to progress at their own pace (at the 99th percentile and above, a lot of the learning would likely be self-directed), the actual teacher instruction would either be too advanced for those on the lower end, or boring for those at the top.

Ideally, every student could learn at his/her own individual pace, but that kind of learning might not be evident on a state test as some students might hyper-focus on one thing to the detriment of all of the other subjects, etc.

FWIW, the reason we started homeschooling was because our “gifted” child was 2-3 grade levels above her class in certain areas, and at grade level in other areas, but the principal wouldn’t allow her to be in a pull-out program because they didn’t believe in it for students below third grade. The teacher was awesome and fully supportive, but the principal/school district had rules that prevented her from doing what was best for our child. The teacher was not able to spend the time specifically with our one child while she had 20+ students who, technically, needed more help; and I never held this against her because I could see what she was dealing with when I volunteered in the classroom. She helped me talk my DH into homeschooling at the parent-teacher conference.

[CA renter]

[quote=livinincali]
But if kids are working on their own through content at their own pace then you don’t need to put 30 kids in a room with 1 aide. You could take 100 of the kids that this type of teaching works really well for and put then in a room without the disruptive kids. You could put disruptive kids in isolation or in smaller groups. You’re not forced to commit to this 30 people in a room dynamic.

The biggest problem I have with the education system is there has been absolutely 0 improvement in efficiency or effectiveness with the technological advancements we’ve made over the years. In my opinion I think there would have been some improvements if the School Districts weren’t so resistant to change. A private company that resistant to change would have failed by now, but because it’s public and supported by tax dollars they don’t have to change. That is where the biggest problem lies. Tenure is just one of the numerous barriers that protect the school district from having to change.

Say something that’s been fairly successful like the Preuss school. Naysayers want to dismiss those results because they don’t have to deal with the challenges that exist in poorer neighborhood schools. But maybe that’s exactly what the public schools should be doing. Take the smart kids in the poor schools and put them together with good teachers and accelerate their learning process rather than just teaching to the middle with disruptive kids causing problems for everybody. Segregate the students not by race, color or background but by IQ or desire to learn.[/quote]

[Edited to delete duplicate portion of response. -CAR]

As for the bolded part of your quote, guess what the schools/classrooms would look like if we segregated by IQ? It would be segregated by race, color, and background/SES. That is why we legally cannot track students by IQ…and why teachers have to teach to the middle of the class. It is against the law to track by IQ.

[CA renter]

[quote=CA renter][quote=EconProf]Today’s copy of USA Today has some interesting data points about the status quo with existing tenure and unions in CA:
1. An average of 2.2 teachers a year are dismissed for unsatisfactory performance in a state where 275,000 teachers work.
2. A CA teacher has a better chance of being struck by lightning than being fired for incompetence.
3. A teacher in CA can gain what amounts to lifetime job protection in less than two years–the deadline for deciding whether to give tenure to new, probationary teachers. When layoffs occur, the newest teachers are the first to go, even if they are top performers. Seniority rules.
This is the status quo that union defenders have to answer for. Now that parents, employers, and the broader public is demanding change, I think that is a good thing. And I really don’t mind if rich people are among those advocating change. Let’s look at the merits of the arguments, not who is pushing for the needed reforms.[/quote]

You think that unions and teachers should be scrutinized, but the mega-millionaires and billionaires who are pushing the anti-union message shouldn’t be scrutinized? Oh, hell no! More than anything, we need to get the word out about who is behind the anti-union message and why they are pushing this message. And it has nothing at all to do with what’s right for students or taxpayers!

In this post, you acknowledge that the non-tenured teachers are more heavily concentrated in the poor and poorly-performing schools. Doesn’t this contradict your entire message about unions and tenure putting these students at a disadvantage? Wouldn’t those non-tenured teachers want to “work harder” in order to avoid being terminated?

So, again, I’m asking you: Where is the evidence; where are the statistics and data — taking into account IQ/SES/parental resources — that shows that teachers’ unions and/or tenure have a negative impact on student outcomes? Answer this question, and then we can continue with the conversation once we have more information.[/quote]

Still waiting…

[joec]

[quote=CA renter]As for the bolded part of your quote, guess what the schools/classrooms would look like if we segregated by IQ? It would be segregated by race, color, and background/SES. That is why we legally cannot track students by IQ…and why teachers have to teach to the middle of the class. It is against the law to track by IQ.[/quote]

I thought IQ tests were not really academic tests and more how you think/reason, etc?

I think my IQ is very average having mostly gotten just “Satisfactory” throughout all my elementary school years.

I just studied a lot, even when I hear/read that other people didn’t really have to in High School…which I did have to.

I disagree that someone of a certain race/color/background at a young age has a lower IQ than someone of the other, more academic (considered) races.

You can call it the poor kid who doesn’t have a safe home to study and bad friends would be a bad influence, but I don’t think that’s called IQ.

[joec]

[quote=CA renter]

Ideally, every student could learn at his/her own individual pace, but that kind of learning might not be evident on a state test as some students might hyper-focus on one thing to the detriment of all of the other subjects, etc.

FWIW, the reason we started homeschooling was because our “gifted” child was 2-3 grade levels above her class in certain areas, and at grade level in other areas, but the principal wouldn’t allow her to be in a pull-out program because they didn’t believe in it for students below third grade. The teacher was awesome and fully supportive, but the principal/school district had rules that prevented her from doing what was best for our child. The teacher was not able to spend the time specifically with our one child while she had 20+ students who, technically, needed more help; and I never held this against her because I could see what she was dealing with when I volunteered in the classroom. She helped me talk my DH into homeschooling at the parent-teacher conference.[/quote]

I think the new Poway school is doing this where the kids just do classwork based on ability…You could have some kid good in math in 1st grade study with 3rd graders I believe, etc…

It seems like it’s being done in numerous schools in the bay area as well so like with the teacher issue, things can change if people want to and teachers aren’t resistant to it…

A part of me wonders if the teacher/principal is supportive of your home schooling because at the end of the day, they just wanted you to stop bothering them and go away. 🙂

I know as a business owner, I really don’t want a lot of problem customers or people who make my job harder than it needs to be. Yes, we’re all a little lazy and have our own problems.

[CA renter]

[quote=joec][quote=CA renter]As for the bolded part of your quote, guess what the schools/classrooms would look like if we segregated by IQ? It would be segregated by race, color, and background/SES. That is why we legally cannot track students by IQ…and why teachers have to teach to the middle of the class. It is against the law to track by IQ.[/quote]

I thought IQ tests were not really academic tests and more how you think/reason, etc?

I think my IQ is very average having mostly gotten just “Satisfactory” throughout all my elementary school years.

I just studied a lot, even when I hear/read that other people didn’t really have to in High School…which I did have to.

I disagree that someone of a certain race/color/background at a young age has a lower IQ than someone of the other, more academic (considered) races.

You can call it the poor kid who doesn’t have a safe home to study and bad friends would be a bad influence, but I don’t think that’s called IQ.[/quote]

IQ is supposed to assess some basic knowledge, memory, logic, visual processing, and reasoning skills, among other things. You’re correct that people can overcome natural IQ deficiencies if they work harder (sometimes, much harder), but many people believe that IQ is heritable — a very contentious subject because of the implications, BTW.

No matter how one wants to define it, or what one believes are the causes of different IQ scores, if you were to segregate the classes by IQ/educational aptitude, they would be largely segregated by race, SES, and other demographic factors. Just look at where the “poor” schools are concentrated, and look at where the “good” schools are concentrated. It will clearly show that race/class/SES are very highly correlated to where these schools end up on the spectrum. Teachers, themselves, have relatively little effect on where schools place based on standardized test scores.

The reason I keep prodding EconProf for some kind of evidence to show that teachers’ unions have a negative effect on student outcomes is because he cannot find any evidence to back up his claim once race, SES, and other demographic influences are taken into consideration. If anything, studies show that schools with unions have better outcomes for students once these other factors are taken into consideration. Anyone who studies our education system knows this, which is why you will never see the anti-union Privatization Movement folks citing any of the actual facts and research.

[CA renter]

[quote=joec]
I think the new Poway school is doing this where the kids just do classwork based on ability…You could have some kid good in math in 1st grade study with 3rd graders I believe, etc…

It seems like it’s being done in numerous schools in the bay area as well so like with the teacher issue, things can change if people want to and teachers aren’t resistant to it…

A part of me wonders if the teacher/principal is supportive of your home schooling because at the end of the day, they just wanted you to stop bothering them and go away. 🙂

I know as a business owner, I really don’t want a lot of problem customers or people who make my job harder than it needs to be. Yes, we’re all a little lazy and have our own problems.[/quote]

No, as someone who knows what teachers have to deal with, I would never give another teacher a hard time unless he/she is actually bad. “Bad” isn’t defined as having a style or philosophy that is different from mine. I volunteered in the classroom on a regular basis, and like the volunteer that BG mentioned in her own kid’s classroom, they would have me do assessments and more academic tasks vs. cutting paper, gossiping in the back of the classroom, distracting the kids, causing problems, etc. 😉

[CA renter]

[quote=livinincali][quote=CA renter]
Also, you’re underestimating how important classroom management is, especially if students are going to be working on their own. An aide will not be able to deal with all of the questions and situations that will arise in the classroom, especially if students are left to their own devices.[/quote]

But if kids are working on their own through content at their own pace then you don’t need to put 30 kids in a room with 1 aide. You could take 100 of the kids that this type of teaching works really well for and put then in a room without the disruptive kids. You could put disruptive kids in isolation or in smaller groups. You’re not forced to commit to this 30 people in a room dynamic.

[/quote]

I was thinking about this quote today, and wondered if you have any children of your own. If you’ve ever had any experience with children, you’d know that putting more than 30-40 kids in a room together (and many experienced teachers would argue that this is too many), and expecting them to remain on task with just an aide…well, it’s just not going to end very well.

[joec]

I still find it hard to believe that if you took different race and economic backgrounds of kids maybe aged 2 or younger, there would be much difference in IQ…

The young age of 6 would start having differences due to economic impact (like most wealthy kids with a stay at home mom or people who can afford preschool) would obviously do better on IQ or other tests because they have had this interaction or game before, but I have strong doubts that given the same pre-school opportunity, someone of a certain color/race/parent with lower IQ will score lower than someone else.

Is there a study stating this? Again, I am removing poor economic environments where the young kid may worry about being shot daily and be malnurished vs hereditary IQ genes being passed to the next guy…

[CA renter]

This has been studied for generations, and many people who’ve studied it for decades will disagree about the causes of IQ differentials. I’m no expert; just stating what’s out there and what the effects of these differences are on our educational system.

[bearishgurl]

I can’t believe this thread has devolved into all this crazy talk, especially about kids who aren’t even in school yet!

Instead of worrying about “IQ” (ESP “IQ” of toddlers, lol) today’s parents would be better served by making sure their kids are ready for school (potty trained, no thumb-sucking or tugging on mommy, etc) enrolling their kid(s) in school (if public school in CA, then with UNIONized teachers) and let those UNIONized teachers do the job they were hired to do! TRUST ME, they’ll get your kid(s) through the “system” with all their A-G reqs met for college admission if your kid is even halfway motivated!

Parents should just relax about all of this and go to work every day so they can pay taxes to support the public schools and leave the education of their kids to the “experts.”

I know this info may be quite a stretch for a few Piggs out there but hundreds of thousands of students from EVERY race, nationality and socioeconomic level graduate from EVERY PUBLIC HS in CA EVERY year and get accepted into university right out of HS (yes, UC, CSU and the Ivies, etc). This thread has turned into a wacky diatribe of once again “overthinking” the whole concept of child-rearing.

I counted no less than 43 IB diploma candidates in my kid’s HS graduation class of 2014, not counting the hundreds of Honor Diploma awardees, President’s Education awardees, CSF Life Members, Honor Roll Scholarship awardees … even two National Merit Scholars! This is a school situated about 8 miles north of the international border with its largest demographic, “Hispanic” students representing 58% of the student body, “white” students representing 22%, “Asian” students representing 13%, “African American” students representing 4.6%, “American Indian/Pacific Islander” representing 1.5%. It also had 18% “socioeconomically disadvantaged” students, 11% ESL learners and 9% disabled students. Guess what, folks? Almost every one of these graduates is going to college this fall (except for the few going into the military and the developmentally-disabled students).

It doesn’t matter what the racial or even socioeconomic backgrounds of students are in a given public school. The educational opportunities in every public HS in CA are the same (except those offering IB Diploma contracts – those schools are very limited). Yes, even CA’s high schools serving rural students offer AP classes!

I’ve got Vergara v. State (CTA) on my tickler to keep tabs on the filing of a new appeal. This case truly needs to wind its way through the court system to lay this issue to rest, once and for all. CA (and the rest of the country) have come wa-a-a-a-y too far down the road in the last 60 years to be wasting time fighting off ignorant claims such as the ones these plaintiffs are making (along with the idiot judge who agrees with them).

[UCGal]

[quote=CA renter]This has been studied for generations, and many people who’ve studied it for decades will disagree about the causes of IQ differentials. I’m no expert; just stating what’s out there and what the effects of these differences are on our educational system.[/quote]

One of the reasons San Diego Unified uses the Ravin test for GATE testing is because it takes out cultural bias, native language bias, etc. It’s basically pattern recognition in a purely visual basis.

I can tell you that my kids’ seminar classes were ethnically mixed. Part of that is because they were at a school in a hispanic/vietnamese part of Clairemont. But the seminar teachers have such a reputation that kids literally choice in from La Jolla, Coronado, UC, and Point Loma. (Those are the white kids in the class.) All of the kids are super smart – but some come from challenging backgrounds. I would say the class was less than half white… so clearly there is ethnic diversity among cream of the smart kids.

In other districts that use a more typical IQ test – the factors mentioned above probably play a role of keeping non-english speakers at lower scores.

http://www.raventest.net/raven-test.html

[CA renter]

[quote=UCGal][quote=CA renter]This has been studied for generations, and many people who’ve studied it for decades will disagree about the causes of IQ differentials. I’m no expert; just stating what’s out there and what the effects of these differences are on our educational system.[/quote]

One of the reasons San Diego Unified uses the Ravin test for GATE testing is because it takes out cultural bias, native language bias, etc. It’s basically pattern recognition in a purely visual basis.

I can tell you that my kids’ seminar classes were ethnically mixed. Part of that is because they were at a school in a hispanic/vietnamese part of Clairemont. But the seminar teachers have such a reputation that kids literally choice in from La Jolla, Coronado, UC, and Point Loma. (Those are the white kids in the class.) All of the kids are super smart – but some come from challenging backgrounds. I would say the class was less than half white… so clearly there is ethnic diversity among cream of the smart kids.

In other districts that use a more typical IQ test – the factors mentioned above probably play a role of keeping non-english speakers at lower scores.

http://www.raventest.net/raven-test.html%5B/quote%5D

But, is it the teachers that give this school/program the reputation that it has, or is it the students? That’s the question that relates most to the issue of teacher tenure and union protection.

I think you’d be surprised to see that many of the teachers in low-performing schools are some of the very best teachers around. It might not show up on the standardized test scores, though. As a teacher, you can do a whole lot more with a classroom full of highly intelligent (irrespective of the tests used to determine this) and motivated students than you can with students who are less intelligent and come from very rough backgrounds who tend to be a lot less motivated in the traditional sense. This is what is demonstrated by standardized test scores.

Also agree that there is no perfect assessment for intelligence, and that there are many different types of intelligence and talents of various sorts. Will get more into the types of testing and what they’re looking for, and why it matters, when I get some more time later on.

Edited to add:

If you go to your link and click on the “IQ by country” link, the breakdown looks very much like how those segregated schools would look.

[CA renter]

Thought about this earlier today and wanted to make one thing very clear: people with high (and low) IQs come from all races, ethnic backgrounds, genders, ages, SES demographics, etc. The difference is in the range and ratios found among these different groups. Again, I will not even delve into the possible reasons for this, because that is not my specialty…and even the experts don’t know, or don’t want to definitively say anything one way or another.

The RPM is a good test that will definitely identify students who are superior when it comes to certain types of logic, reasoning, and visual-spatial skills. And while the results from this test tend to overlap with the results from other intelligence tests, it is more limited in what it is testing.

While it’s good to use tests that remove cultural and linguistic biases, some people think it’s important to test for these other skills, as well. Verbal-linguistic intelligence, memory, arithmetic, conceptual thinking, understanding of social issues, etc. are all very important, too. Again, while strength in the RPM assessment might overlap with some of these things, it doesn’t cover all of them. Other IQ tests look at visual-spatial skills, but they are looking at many other skills, as well. Not saying that they are better, just that they are different.

Some students are better at math, some at reading, some at logic/debate, some have superior social skills, some have better “street smarts” which many would argue is just as important as intellectual strength. It’s difficult to measure everything with a single test, but what we do know is that higher scores on IQ tests (including the RPM) are highly correlated with wealth, good decision making, higher education, better/longer-lasting marriages (and children born to married parents), etc.

Now, are we failing those who don’t score well on IQ tests? I would argue that we are, but it’s not the teachers who are doing this, it’s the entire educational system, the politicians and corporate leaders who are pushing education in a particular direction, and it’s also because our economic system isn’t set up to give everyone an equal chance, given the same effort expended. I think that is wrong, but we would have to revamp our entire economy and educational system in order to fix it, IMHO, and that just isn’t going to happen.

All that being said, if the cultural and language barriers were the crux of the problem, why do so many Asian students do so well, especially when one considers the fact that their languages and cultures are even more dissimilar than many of those who perform poorly on these tests? …Of course, some would argue that the people coming over from China, Japan, Korea, etc. are wealthier (therefore, more intelligent) while the people coming from Latin America and Africa are more likely to be the downtrodden because they are more likely to be descendents of slaves, or people who weren’t doing well in their native Latin American countries, so made their way over here. Then, we’re right back to, “I just don’t know.”

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