O/T: Shock – National Association of Manufacturers calls for Pence consider 25th amendment

This topic has 11 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 10 months ago by svelte.

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January 6, 2021 at 7:55 PM #23025

equalizer
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The National Association of Manufacturers (NAM) has published a strong condemnation of the events taking place in Washington, DC, today. In response to “large groups of armed Trump adherents who have violently stormed the US Capitol building,” NAM President and CEO Jay Timmons writes, “This is not law and order. This is chaos. It is mob rule. It is dangerous. This is sedition and should be treated as such. The outgoing president incited violence in an attempt to retain power, and any elected leader defending him is violating their oath to the Constitution and rejecting democracy in favor of anarchy,” writes Timmons.

Trump has been cheered on by his own party, continues Timmons, as he has steadfastly refused to accept defeat in a free and fair election. “Vice President Pence, who was evacuated from the Capitol, should seriously consider working with the Cabinet to invoke the 25th Amendment to preserve democracy,” he added.

https://www.plasticstoday.com/legislation-regulations/trump-incited-dc-violence-says-national-association-manufacturers

January 6, 2021 at 10:47 PM #820364

ucodegen
Participant

Pence can’t directly invoke the 25th, it requires a bit more. Politically, it might also not be a good idea for him to do it. This is because it would limit him to only one more term of Presidential office beyond the short few day term impeachment would give him. If he waits for Trump to term out, then he would have the potential of two full terms as a President if voted in, not one. NOTE: Removal from office only occurs after the trial portion of impeachment… so we would probably be looking at more than 3 weeks if it was started today. The exception to this is Vice President and Congress by majority – however there is also a time delay here too… up to 21 days…

Currently Trump is effectively a lame-duck, probably trying to keep what he feels is his base ‘motivated’ so that he could start a comeback in 4 years. In reality, his most recent actions have guaranteed that a ‘come-back’ will not happen… ever. The problem is how much of the Republican party he will end up taking down with him.

Trump didn’t do too bad as President – despite what some people might feel.
Economy did well up until the Pandemic.
Economy did not collapse during the Pandemic despite the dramatic shut down. Power’s still on, food is still available, very few additional people homeless, no 1929 repeat. He did not do the ‘doom and gloom’ which would have completely collapsed the market. There are more than just fundamentals that drive the market. There is also a hard to quantify aspect related to people/companies willing to take the financial risk to make a new product, build a company etc. If people don’t feel safe, they will just sit on their cash – which happened in the Great Depression.
We finally got hospital price transparency, no ‘surprise surprise surprise’ with the bill.
The initial reports from China and WHO were saying that the virus was nothing to worry about, but when facts came out – money was dispensed to get a vaccine, money was dispensed to people who lost income/jobs. yes, Trump talked about the virus being a no big deal. It may have been to keep people from panicking, it could have been for other reasons. For most people, this virus was just a bad flu. NOTE for comparison: in 1918, the ‘Spanish’ flu deaths were 675,000 in the US, 50million world wide. US population was 99million, world population 1.9billion. Current US population is 331 million, world population 7.8Billion. Scaling 1918 flu deaths to current population would mean 2.26million US deaths compared to 361,000 current COVID deaths, 205.26million world wide deaths, compared to 1.88million COVID. By the way, the 1918 ‘Spanish’ flu is also known as A/H1N1, which should sound familiar – it still comes around…
While Trump did not get a Treaty with North Korea, one has to remember that North Korea violated the previous Treaties with the US with respect to stopping nuclear weapon development. No Treaty with sanctions in place is better than a Treaty without the ability to verify.
Same as above for Iran.
While Russia has been a thorn in the US’s side for a long time, China in many ways is worse. Forced technology transfer, non-reciprocation of deals(re-writing deals when it became their turn to deliver). At least Trump finally recognized China for its current behavior.
At this point though, all of Trumps current actions will way overshadow any of the good of earlier. It is not a good way to bookmark his presidency…

January 6, 2021 at 11:33 PM #820365

Participant

NAM is a top republican business group. They want stability. For them to make statement they sense deep conflict that has to be toned down.

Pence does not seem likely to win, but after this who knows?

January 7, 2021 at 9:18 AM #820366

sdrealtor

Participant

[quote=ucodegen]Pence can’t directly invoke the 25th, it requires a bit more. Politically, it might also not be a good idea for him to do it. This is because it would limit him to only one more term of Presidential office beyond the short few day term impeachment would give him. If he waits for Trump to term out, then he would have the potential of two full terms as a President if voted in, not one. NOTE: Removal from office only occurs after the trial portion of impeachment… so we would probably be looking at more than 3 weeks if it was started today. The exception to this is Vice President and Congress by majority – however there is also a time delay here too… up to 21 days…

Currently Trump is effectively a lame-duck, probably trying to keep what he feels is his base ‘motivated’ so that he could start a comeback in 4 years. In reality, his most recent actions have guaranteed that a ‘come-back’ will not happen… ever. The problem is how much of the Republican party he will end up taking down with him.

Trump didn’t do too bad as President – despite what some people might feel.

Economy did well up until the Pandemic.

Economy did not collapse during the Pandemic despite the dramatic shut down. Power’s still on, food is still available, very few additional people homeless, no 1929 repeat. He did not do the ‘doom and gloom’ which would have completely collapsed the market. There are more than just fundamentals that drive the market. There is also a hard to quantify aspect related to people/companies willing to take the financial risk to make a new product, build a company etc. If people don’t feel safe, they will just sit on their cash – which happened in the Great Depression.

We finally got hospital price transparency, no ‘surprise surprise surprise’ with the bill.

The initial reports from China and WHO were saying that the virus was nothing to worry about, but when facts came out – money was dispensed to get a vaccine, money was dispensed to people who lost income/jobs. yes, Trump talked about the virus being a no big deal. It may have been to keep people from panicking, it could have been for other reasons. For most people, this virus was just a bad flu. NOTE for comparison: in 1918, the ‘Spanish’ flu deaths were 675,000 in the US, 50million world wide. US population was 99million, world population 1.9billion. Current US population is 331 million, world population 7.8Billion. Scaling 1918 flu deaths to current population would mean 2.26million US deaths compared to 361,000 current COVID deaths, 205.26million world wide deaths, compared to 1.88million COVID. By the way, the 1918 ‘Spanish’ flu is also known as A/H1N1, which should sound familiar – it still comes around…

While Trump did not get a Treaty with North Korea, one has to remember that North Korea violated the previous Treaties with the US with respect to stopping nuclear weapon development. No Treaty with sanctions in place is better than a Treaty without the ability to verify.

Same as above for Iran.

While Russia has been a thorn in the US’s side for a long time, China in many ways is worse. Forced technology transfer, non-reciprocation of deals(re-writing deals when it became their turn to deliver). At least Trump finally recognized China for its current behavior.

At this point though, all of Trumps current actions will way overshadow any of the good of earlier. It is not a good way to bookmark his presidency…[/quote]

You forgot Space Force

January 7, 2021 at 9:47 AM #820367

Hobie

Participant

And facilitating normalizing relations between Israel and UAE, Bahrain.

January 7, 2021 at 10:00 AM #820368

phaster

Participant

Two MAGA protestors die and go to heaven.

They ask God if he’d answer one question.

“Of course,” God says.

They ask how the Democrats rigged the election in 2020.

“It wasn’t rigged,” God replied.

MAGA protestors look at one another and say,

“This conspiracy goes higher than we thought!”

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13660033/maga-fans-protest-washington-dc-trump-biden-win/

January 7, 2021 at 12:16 PM #820370

svelte

Participant

There is not enough time left to impeach or invoke the 25th.

I’m afraid at this point we’re going to have to ride it out. Not that I want to ride it out, but that’s really the only realistic path.

January 7, 2021 at 5:13 PM #820371

svelte

Participant

[quote=ucodegen]

At this point though, all of Trumps current actions will way overshadow any of the good of earlier. It is not a good way to bookmark his presidency…[/quote]

A Capitol police officer has now died as a direct result of Trump’s riot.

His legacy is now sealed.

January 10, 2021 at 9:17 AM #820378

Hatfield

Participant

[quote=ucodegen] it would limit him to only one more term of Presidential office beyond the short few day term impeachment would give him. [/quote]

That part isn’t correct. You cannot be *elected* to the Presidency more than twice, or serve more than 10 years if you ascend due to a vacancy. So if the 25th were invoked, he could serve out the remaining ~10 days of this term, plus run for two full terms.

I don’t know what his future ambitions are (hopefully none), but in his calculus he probably figures he’s rocked the boat enough already and just run the clock out.

January 10, 2021 at 11:51 AM #820379

svelte

Participant

January 11, 2021 at 2:23 PM #820384

utcsox

Participant

[quote=svelte]There is not enough time left to impeach or invoke the 25th.

I’m afraid at this point we’re going to have to ride it out. Not that I want to ride it out, but that’s really the only realistic path.[/quote]

Check out this poll via Quinnipiac:

2. Do you believe there was widespread voter fraud in the 2020 presidential election, or not?

Republicans:
73% yes, widespread fraud
21% no
6% DK/NA

Democrats:
5% yes, widespread fraud
93% no
2% DK/NA

10. Do you think that President Trump should be removed from office, or don’t you think so?

Republicans:
10% yes, removed
87% no,
3% DK/NA

Democrats:
89% yes, removed
9% no,
2% DK/NA

14. Do you hold President Trump responsible for the storming of the U.S. Capitol on January 6th, or not?

Republicans:
17% yes, responsible
80% no,
3% DK/NA

Democrats:
94% yes, responsible
6% no,
1% DK/NA

Source: https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=3686

January 11, 2021 at 3:25 PM #820385

svelte

Participant

Interesting to add the independents in there:

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