ot. self loathing gay muslims

[Hatfield]

[quote=Rich Toscano]Please don’t post garbage like this on my site, it embarrasses everyone involved.[/quote]

Thank you, Rich.

[Anonymous]

[quote=mixxalot]I am not anti gay but my issue is that too many gays act like they deserve special treatment and special rights for liking anal sex.[/quote]

I’d like to think that you are trying to make a legitimate argument, but simply do not have the skills to articulate it without sounding like an imbecile.

I’d like to think that here, but it tests the limits of my generosity.

I try to understand different points of view, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt when perhaps they aren’t communicating effectively.

But goddamn, that was just stupid man. Just stupid.

[Anonymous]

[quote=scaredyclassic]the shooters ex wife is incredibly hot.[/quote]

I like to laugh at a lot of things. Even things that may not warrant laughter.

And after reading your comment I was tempted to google for a photograph of her, but I’m relieved to say that I did not.

And I will not.

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=harvey][quote=scaredyclassic]the shooters ex wife is incredibly hot.[/quote]

I like to laugh at a lot of things. Even things that may not warrant laughter.

And after reading your comment I was tempted to google for a photograph of her, but I’m relieved to say that I did not.

And I will not.[/quote]

Well. I think it would be ok to look. she’s not quite as pretty as my wife, but close.

[zk]

I’d like to think that this jackass is actually not gay (but still extremely homophobic), and he’s in muslim hell, looking up and seeing everybody saying that he’s gay, and he can’t respond. That would be nice.

[njtosd]

[quote=spdrun]If Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, West Indians, Chinese, Irish, Italians can have their own parades, why not gay pride?

As far as flaunting it, would you be offended by a straight couple hugging and kissing in public?[/quote]

I don’t understand the concept of pride in something that just is. I don’t see being heterosexual or homosexual (or having two ears or a spleen) as being a source of pride (or shame). One can have pride in overcoming prejudice or battling unfair treatment, but that is different. It seems that too many attempts to fix problems caused by discrimination just results in lines being drawn in new places.

[njtosd]

[quote=zk]I’d like to think that this jackass is actually not gay (but still extremely homophobic), and he’s in muslim hell, looking up and seeing everybody saying that he’s gay, and he can’t respond. That would be nice.[/quote]

He was just crazy (although that doesn’t make the situation any less tragic). This post makes me think of someone wanting revenge on a wild animal. Why does everyone think these lunatics make rational choices about their fixations? Lots of people are jackasses (sometimes). This, like Newton and Aurora, is the result of a deranged mind.

He seems to have a genetic predisposition. His father (according to CBS News):

has often appeared wearing a military uniform and declaring himself the leader of a “transitional revolutionary government” of Afghanistan. He claims to have his own intelligence agency and close ties to the U.S. Congress — assets he says he will use to subvert Pakistani influence and take control of Afghanistan.

After watching his videos — none of which were recorded in English — CBS News’ Ahmad Mukhtar said it seemed possible that Seddique Mateen is delusional. “He thinks he runs a government in exile and will soon take the power in Kabul in a revolution,” notes Mukhtar.”

[outtamojo]

[quote=njtosd][quote=spdrun]If Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, West Indians, Chinese, Irish, Italians can have their own parades, why not gay pride?

As far as flaunting it, would you be offended by a straight couple hugging and kissing in public?[/quote]

I don’t understand the concept of pride in something that just is. I don’t see being heterosexual or homosexual (or having two ears or a spleen) as being a source of pride (or shame). One can have pride in overcoming prejudice or battling unfair treatment, but that is different. It seems that too many attempts to fix problems caused by discrimination just results in lines being drawn in new places.[/quote]

You may not see these things as a source of shame, but sadly, many segments of society do. In a world of emotional humans, nothing is ever something that just is. The pride message I believe is just other like humans trying to help those who have been beaten down and ridiculed join society and be comfortable with who they are.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=scaredyclassic]ugh.[/quote]

Scaredy, you jumped to conclusions pretty fast earlier. Looks like you might be right.
http://wapo.st/1trlo3U

[zk]

[quote=njtosd]
He was just crazy (although that doesn’t make the situation any less tragic). This post makes me think of someone wanting revenge on a wild animal. Why does everyone think these lunatics make rational choices about their fixations? Lots of people are jackasses (sometimes). This, like Newton and Aurora, is the result of a deranged mind.

[/quote]
Njtosd, I really like your posts, and I respect your ideas and your intelligence. I anticipate disagreement with at least some of what I write below, but I anticipate that it will be thoughtful and reasoned, and I look forward to it. If any of the below makes it sound like I’m dismissing what you are saying or being condescending, it’s because I can’t quite figure out how to disagree without sounding like that. I merely disagree. And my questions might sound pointy and/or rhetorical, but they’re not meant to be. I’m curious what your answers are.

——————————————————

I see your point, but, for the most part, I don’t agree.

First, I would call the scenario I outlined justice rather than vengeance. If I had the capacity to make that scenario happen, and I did it regardless of what the law said, that might be vengeance. If it is my opinion that he deserves it, and that it would be a just punishment, that’s simply my opinion on what would be a just punishment. The fact that I would like it means that I like it when justice is done.

Justice vs. Vengeance is a tricky, nebulous subject that, I think, most people haven’t given much thought. An interesting article on the subject:

As for this case, I’m not all that sure he was deranged. I think he was gay, and like many gay people whose upbringing causes them to hate gays, he hated gays, and he hated himself for being gay.

If you hate somebody so much that you want to kill them, or kill 50 of them, and then you kill them, does that mean that, by definition, you’re deranged? It depends on your definition of deranged, I guess, but I don’t think it does mean you’re deranged. I think it means you’re an asshole.

Maybe he wasn’t a self-loathing gay, maybe he was a religious fanatic. If your religion says you should kill a certain group of people, and you do it, does that mean you’re deranged? Or does it mean you’re a self-righteous asshole? I’m not saying that islam says to kill gays. I’m saying that people interpret their religious texts in all kinds of different ways, and maybe this jackass interpreted islam to say he should kill gays. I’m sure it wouldn’t be the first time somebody interpreted a religion that way, and it definitely wouldn’t be the first time that mass murder was perpetrated in the name of some not-wildly-misinterpreted writings in a religious text.

But even if he was deranged, what he did, it seems to me, requires, in addition to possible derangement, most or all of the following (and probably some others I can’t think of right now): self-righteousness, bad intent, selfishness, self-importance, anger, lack of self control, thoughtlessness, and maybe self-loathing. All of those are just bad personality traits that aren’t necessarily connected to the derangement. If a person is a little bit disconnected from reality, but not a total asshole, it seems to me they’re generally not going to kill anybody. If a person has some weird ideas about life, and he has the bad personality traits above, and he kills a bunch of people, did he do it because he has some weird ideas about life, or because he’s an asshole? Maybe a little of the former and a lot of the latter. Do those weird ideas about life qualify him as deranged and thus not deserving of punishment? In the way that a wild animal is not deserving of punishment? Weird ideas about life run the gamut from believing in astrology all the way up to thinking you should kill all the jews. Both of those ideas, and all the ones in between, involve some detachment from reality. Is a person who believes in astrology deranged? If not, why not? If a person kills people based on a combination of believing in astrology and being a raging asshole, is he deserving of punishment? If so, why does he deserve punishment, but not the guy who kills 50 people because his religion tells him to do it or because he hates himself and all other gays? If not, why not?

Did this jackass beat his wife because he was deranged, or because he was an asshole? Is the punishment for his wife beating different because he’s “deranged?” If you think he deserves punishment for beating his wife, why do you think so? If he beat his wife because he was deranged, why should punishment be in order for beating his wife but not for killing 50 people? If you don’t think he beat his wife because he was deranged, why do you think his wife beating wasn’t the result of derangement but his shooting spree was? Really, other than degree, what’s the difference between beating an innocent, defenseless person and killing 50 of them? Why would one require derangement and the other not? Is there some level of cruelty, evil, badness, or criminality past which derangement by your definition would have to be present?

[njtosd]

[quote=outtamojo][quote=njtosd][quote=spdrun]If Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, West Indians, Chinese, Irish, Italians can have their own parades, why not gay pride?

As far as flaunting it, would you be offended by a straight couple hugging and kissing in public?[/quote]

I don’t understand the concept of pride in something that just is. I don’t see being heterosexual or homosexual (or having two ears or a spleen) as being a source of pride (or shame). One can have pride in overcoming prejudice or battling unfair treatment, but that is different. It seems that too many attempts to fix problems caused by discrimination just results in lines being drawn in new places.[/quote]

You may not see these things as a source of shame, but sadly, many segments of society do. In a world of emotional humans, nothing is ever something that just is. The pride message I believe is just other like humans trying to help those who have been beaten down and ridiculed join society and be comfortable with who they are.[/quote]

The problem with the word pride and the current usage is that it is only acceptable when used by those who have been the target of discrimination. Most would not think it would be appropriate for people to say I’m proud to be white and of northern European descent. In fact, although gay pride is seen in a positive light, white pride is a term popular with imprisoned neo-nazis*. To me, this sort of takes the meaning out of the word – it seems like something people use to convey whatever they want (like “Smurf”). I guess I wish people would stop relying on popular buzzwords (“critical mass” is gone, “reach out” sounds a little creepy to me, apparently “amplify” is enjoying current popularity) and just use words that communicate a thought. I had this discussion with scaredy in another thread – I think educators should be prohibited from using the word amazing, and maybe phenomenal.

*In a similar way I find it sad that the four leaf clover is now the symbol of both a decadent breakfast cereal and the Aryan Brotherhood

[njtosd]

[quote=zk][quote=njtosd]
He was just crazy (although that doesn’t make the situation any less tragic). This post makes me think of someone wanting revenge on a wild animal. Why does everyone think these lunatics make rational choices about their fixations? Lots of people are jackasses (sometimes). This, like Newton and Aurora, is the result of a deranged mind.

[/quote]
Njtosd, I really like your posts, and I respect your ideas and your intelligence. I anticipate disagreement with at least some of what I write below, but I anticipate that it will be thoughtful and reasoned, and I look forward to it. If any of the below makes it sound like I’m dismissing what you are saying or being condescending, it’s because I can’t quite figure out how to disagree without sounding like that. I merely disagree. And my questions might sound pointy and/or rhetorical, but they’re not meant to be. I’m curious what your answers are.

——————————————————

I see your point, but, for the most part, I don’t agree.

First, I would call the scenario I outlined justice rather than vengeance. If I had the capacity to make that scenario happen, and I did it regardless of what the law said, that might be vengeance. If it is my opinion that he deserves it, and that it would be a just punishment, that’s simply my opinion on what would be a just punishment. The fact that I would like it means that I like it when justice is done.

Justice vs. Vengeance is a tricky, nebulous subject that, I think, most people haven’t given much thought. An interesting article on the subject:

As for this case, I’m not all that sure he was deranged. I think he was gay, and like many gay people whose upbringing causes them to hate gays, he hated gays, and he hated himself for being gay.

If you hate somebody so much that you want to kill them, or kill 50 of them, and then you kill them, does that mean that, by definition, you’re deranged? It depends on your definition of deranged, I guess, but I don’t think it does mean you’re deranged. I think it means you’re an asshole.

Maybe he wasn’t a self-loathing gay, maybe he was a religious fanatic. If your religion says you should kill a certain group of people, and you do it, does that mean you’re deranged? Or does it mean you’re a self-righteous asshole? I’m not saying that islam says to kill gays. I’m saying that people interpret their religious texts in all kinds of different ways, and maybe this jackass interpreted islam to say he should kill gays. I’m sure it wouldn’t be the first time somebody interpreted a religion that way, and it definitely wouldn’t be the first time that mass murder was perpetrated in the name of some not-wildly-misinterpreted writings in a religious text.

But even if he was deranged, what he did, it seems to me, requires, in addition to possible derangement, most or all of the following (and probably some others I can’t think of right now): self-righteousness, bad intent, selfishness, self-importance, anger, lack of self control, thoughtlessness, and maybe self-loathing. All of those are just bad personality traits that aren’t necessarily connected to the derangement. If a person is a little bit disconnected from reality, but not a total asshole, it seems to me they’re generally not going to kill anybody. If a person has some weird ideas about life, and he has the bad personality traits above, and he kills a bunch of people, did he do it because he has some weird ideas about life, or because he’s an asshole? Maybe a little of the former and a lot of the latter. Do those weird ideas about life qualify him as deranged and thus not deserving of punishment? In the way that a wild animal is not deserving of punishment? Weird ideas about life run the gamut from believing in astrology all the way up to thinking you should kill all the jews. Both of those ideas, and all the ones in between, involve some detachment from reality. Is a person who believes in astrology deranged? If not, why not? If a person kills people based on a combination of believing in astrology and being a raging asshole, is he deserving of punishment? If so, why does he deserve punishment, but not the guy who kills 50 people because his religion tells him to do it or because he hates himself and all other gays? If not, why not?

Did this jackass beat his wife because he was deranged, or because he was an asshole? Is the punishment for his wife beating different because he’s “deranged?” If you think he deserves punishment for beating his wife, why do you think so? If he beat his wife because he was deranged, why should punishment be in order for beating his wife but not for killing 50 people? If you don’t think he beat his wife because he was deranged, why do you think his wife beating wasn’t the result of derangement but his shooting spree was? Really, other than degree, what’s the difference between beating an innocent, defenseless person and killing 50 of them? Why would one require derangement and the other not? Is there some level of cruelty, evil, badness, or criminality past which derangement by your definition would have to be present?[/quote]

Of course, there is part of me that agrees with you. Under American law, we put people in prison based on theories of both deterrence and vengeance. And there is the quote from Shakespeare – “the devil can cite scripture for his purpose”. Evildoers can always find something that makes them feel justified their bad acts. I think most run of the mill bad behavior (hitting someone, stealing money, etc.) can exist in the absence of mental illness. I guess I just can’t imagine anyone being able to slaughter a group of people unless they are completely nuts. And if he was incapable of stopping himself (and I don’t know that that is true) the whole idea of punishment doesn’t make a lot of sense. The whole heaven and hell idea is based on the ability to make choices (and the existence of such choice has come into question: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind-guest-blog/what-neuroscience-says-about-free-will/)

[njtosd]

This, on the other hand, is run of the mill behavior than can (and hopefully will) be deterred: http://www.cbs8.com/story/32243400/military-investigates-2-marines-for-social-media-post

[outtamojo]

[quote=njtosd][quote=outtamojo][quote=njtosd][quote=spdrun]If Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, West Indians, Chinese, Irish, Italians can have their own parades, why not gay pride?

As far as flaunting it, would you be offended by a straight couple hugging and kissing in public?[/quote]

I don’t understand the concept of pride in something that just is. I don’t see being heterosexual or homosexual (or having two ears or a spleen) as being a source of pride (or shame). One can have pride in overcoming prejudice or battling unfair treatment, but that is different. It seems that too many attempts to fix problems caused by discrimination just results in lines being drawn in new places.[/quote]

You may not see these things as a source of shame, but sadly, many segments of society do. In a world of emotional humans, nothing is ever something that just is. The pride message I believe is just other like humans trying to help those who have been beaten down and ridiculed join society and be comfortable with who they are.[/quote]

The problem with the word pride and the current usage is that it is only acceptable when used by those who have been the target of discrimination. Most would not think it would be appropriate for people to say I’m proud to be white and of northern European descent. In fact, although gay pride is seen in a positive light, white pride is a term popular with imprisoned neo-nazis*. To me, this sort of takes the meaning out of the word – it seems like something people use to convey whatever they want (like “Smurf”). I guess I wish people would stop relying on popular buzzwords (“critical mass” is gone, “reach out” sounds a little creepy to me, apparently “amplify” is enjoying current popularity) and just use words that communicate a thought. I had this discussion with scaredy in another thread – I think educators should be prohibited from using the word amazing, and maybe phenomenal.

*In a similar way I find it sad that the four leaf clover is now the symbol of both a decadent breakfast cereal and the Aryan Brotherhood[/quote]
Saying you are a proud Scandinavian or proud Norwegian won’t raise any eyebrows and
I have yet to hear objections to Octoberfest or to St. Patrick’s day -celebrations originated by the fair skinned. Somewhere out there is the master key to all we object to but I haven’t found it yet.

[livinincali]

[quote=outtamojo]
I have yet to hear objections to Octoberfest or to St. Patrick’s day -celebrations originated by the fair skinned. Somewhere out there is the master key to all we object to but I haven’t found it yet.[/quote]

There is no master key because we all operate with our own set of beliefs and morals. For example go to Saudi Arabia and announce your gay. They’ll imprison you for being gay because they believe it is wrong to be gay. If you make a statement in the western culture that being gay is wrong and they should be imprisoned you’d be accused of hate speech. We operate on different standards based on different beliefs.

[Author]

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