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January 13, 2011 at 8:20 PM #654327January 13, 2011 at 9:30 PM #653240
Allan from Fallbrook
Participant[quote=pri_dk][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Pri: Two problems here. First, I used the term “rising tide” deliberately. There is no such tide, and if you consult law enforcement resources like NCIC and VICAP, you’ll see that that’s case. You cite recent incidents, but I note you didn’t go back very far in your research. I’d be curious to see what happens when you stretch your timeline to the 1980s, for instance.[/quote]
“Rising tide” does not mean recent?
The list only goes back a couple of years. Which side lost the Presidency about two years ago and has had to resort to more desperate measures to regain power?
If you want me to keep going back in time, I can. We can add McVeigh and Waco to the list.
[quote]Second, how do these incidents you cite tie back into right-wing hate speech? In other words, were all of these incidents incited by right-wing hate speech? If the connection was there, I must have missed it.[/quote]
What more, specifically, would you need to see as evidence of a connection?[/quote]
Pri: My point, relative to “rising tide”, is that there is NOT a rising tide. Simple as that. Consult NCIC or VICAP if you need more evidence. As to the “desperate measures”: What desperate measures are you referring to? The Dems were “shellacked” (Obama’s term) in the mid-terms and the Dems are actively considering an opponent to run against Obama in the 2012 primaries (hence articles like Dana Millbank’s in the NYT bruiting Hillary’s name as the best option for a Dem win). The GOP is on the rise and polls and popular sentiment support that.
Yeah, add McVeigh and Waco. That is simply noise and not signal. McVeigh and Koresh were both wingnuts and, again, I’m not seeing a connection to right-wing hate speech motivating their actions. Hell, in the case of Koresh, he thought he was the Messiah, and I’m pretty sure the Messian ain’t taking his orders from Rush Limbaugh (as much as old Rush would like to think otherwise). If you read the FBI reporting on McVeigh, you’ll find he was motivated by a belief system and politics that had nothing to do with what he may have heard from Limbaugh or right-wing talk radio. He was a classic case of disaffected outsider who saw himself as striking a blow at an oppressive, monolithic government, not the Democratic Party.
You show examples of anti-gubment nutbars and conflate that this supposed incitement to violence that’s coming from Rush or Beck or whomever on the Right is pushing these buttons, but the connection simply isn’t there. Go back to the early 1960s and the Dem’s accusation that JFK’s assassination was the result of the Right’s agitation. Last I checked, Lee Harvey was a former defector, an avowed Communist and solidly in the whacko wingnut club.
January 13, 2011 at 9:30 PM #653305Participant[quote=pri_dk][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Pri: Two problems here. First, I used the term “rising tide” deliberately. There is no such tide, and if you consult law enforcement resources like NCIC and VICAP, you’ll see that that’s case. You cite recent incidents, but I note you didn’t go back very far in your research. I’d be curious to see what happens when you stretch your timeline to the 1980s, for instance.[/quote]
“Rising tide” does not mean recent?
The list only goes back a couple of years. Which side lost the Presidency about two years ago and has had to resort to more desperate measures to regain power?
If you want me to keep going back in time, I can. We can add McVeigh and Waco to the list.
[quote]Second, how do these incidents you cite tie back into right-wing hate speech? In other words, were all of these incidents incited by right-wing hate speech? If the connection was there, I must have missed it.[/quote]
What more, specifically, would you need to see as evidence of a connection?[/quote]
Pri: My point, relative to “rising tide”, is that there is NOT a rising tide. Simple as that. Consult NCIC or VICAP if you need more evidence. As to the “desperate measures”: What desperate measures are you referring to? The Dems were “shellacked” (Obama’s term) in the mid-terms and the Dems are actively considering an opponent to run against Obama in the 2012 primaries (hence articles like Dana Millbank’s in the NYT bruiting Hillary’s name as the best option for a Dem win). The GOP is on the rise and polls and popular sentiment support that.
Yeah, add McVeigh and Waco. That is simply noise and not signal. McVeigh and Koresh were both wingnuts and, again, I’m not seeing a connection to right-wing hate speech motivating their actions. Hell, in the case of Koresh, he thought he was the Messiah, and I’m pretty sure the Messian ain’t taking his orders from Rush Limbaugh (as much as old Rush would like to think otherwise). If you read the FBI reporting on McVeigh, you’ll find he was motivated by a belief system and politics that had nothing to do with what he may have heard from Limbaugh or right-wing talk radio. He was a classic case of disaffected outsider who saw himself as striking a blow at an oppressive, monolithic government, not the Democratic Party.
You show examples of anti-gubment nutbars and conflate that this supposed incitement to violence that’s coming from Rush or Beck or whomever on the Right is pushing these buttons, but the connection simply isn’t there. Go back to the early 1960s and the Dem’s accusation that JFK’s assassination was the result of the Right’s agitation. Last I checked, Lee Harvey was a former defector, an avowed Communist and solidly in the whacko wingnut club.
January 13, 2011 at 9:30 PM #653891Participant[quote=pri_dk][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Pri: Two problems here. First, I used the term “rising tide” deliberately. There is no such tide, and if you consult law enforcement resources like NCIC and VICAP, you’ll see that that’s case. You cite recent incidents, but I note you didn’t go back very far in your research. I’d be curious to see what happens when you stretch your timeline to the 1980s, for instance.[/quote]
“Rising tide” does not mean recent?
The list only goes back a couple of years. Which side lost the Presidency about two years ago and has had to resort to more desperate measures to regain power?
If you want me to keep going back in time, I can. We can add McVeigh and Waco to the list.
[quote]Second, how do these incidents you cite tie back into right-wing hate speech? In other words, were all of these incidents incited by right-wing hate speech? If the connection was there, I must have missed it.[/quote]
What more, specifically, would you need to see as evidence of a connection?[/quote]
Pri: My point, relative to “rising tide”, is that there is NOT a rising tide. Simple as that. Consult NCIC or VICAP if you need more evidence. As to the “desperate measures”: What desperate measures are you referring to? The Dems were “shellacked” (Obama’s term) in the mid-terms and the Dems are actively considering an opponent to run against Obama in the 2012 primaries (hence articles like Dana Millbank’s in the NYT bruiting Hillary’s name as the best option for a Dem win). The GOP is on the rise and polls and popular sentiment support that.
Yeah, add McVeigh and Waco. That is simply noise and not signal. McVeigh and Koresh were both wingnuts and, again, I’m not seeing a connection to right-wing hate speech motivating their actions. Hell, in the case of Koresh, he thought he was the Messiah, and I’m pretty sure the Messian ain’t taking his orders from Rush Limbaugh (as much as old Rush would like to think otherwise). If you read the FBI reporting on McVeigh, you’ll find he was motivated by a belief system and politics that had nothing to do with what he may have heard from Limbaugh or right-wing talk radio. He was a classic case of disaffected outsider who saw himself as striking a blow at an oppressive, monolithic government, not the Democratic Party.
You show examples of anti-gubment nutbars and conflate that this supposed incitement to violence that’s coming from Rush or Beck or whomever on the Right is pushing these buttons, but the connection simply isn’t there. Go back to the early 1960s and the Dem’s accusation that JFK’s assassination was the result of the Right’s agitation. Last I checked, Lee Harvey was a former defector, an avowed Communist and solidly in the whacko wingnut club.
January 13, 2011 at 9:30 PM #654027Participant[quote=pri_dk][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Pri: Two problems here. First, I used the term “rising tide” deliberately. There is no such tide, and if you consult law enforcement resources like NCIC and VICAP, you’ll see that that’s case. You cite recent incidents, but I note you didn’t go back very far in your research. I’d be curious to see what happens when you stretch your timeline to the 1980s, for instance.[/quote]
“Rising tide” does not mean recent?
The list only goes back a couple of years. Which side lost the Presidency about two years ago and has had to resort to more desperate measures to regain power?
If you want me to keep going back in time, I can. We can add McVeigh and Waco to the list.
[quote]Second, how do these incidents you cite tie back into right-wing hate speech? In other words, were all of these incidents incited by right-wing hate speech? If the connection was there, I must have missed it.[/quote]
What more, specifically, would you need to see as evidence of a connection?[/quote]
Pri: My point, relative to “rising tide”, is that there is NOT a rising tide. Simple as that. Consult NCIC or VICAP if you need more evidence. As to the “desperate measures”: What desperate measures are you referring to? The Dems were “shellacked” (Obama’s term) in the mid-terms and the Dems are actively considering an opponent to run against Obama in the 2012 primaries (hence articles like Dana Millbank’s in the NYT bruiting Hillary’s name as the best option for a Dem win). The GOP is on the rise and polls and popular sentiment support that.
Yeah, add McVeigh and Waco. That is simply noise and not signal. McVeigh and Koresh were both wingnuts and, again, I’m not seeing a connection to right-wing hate speech motivating their actions. Hell, in the case of Koresh, he thought he was the Messiah, and I’m pretty sure the Messian ain’t taking his orders from Rush Limbaugh (as much as old Rush would like to think otherwise). If you read the FBI reporting on McVeigh, you’ll find he was motivated by a belief system and politics that had nothing to do with what he may have heard from Limbaugh or right-wing talk radio. He was a classic case of disaffected outsider who saw himself as striking a blow at an oppressive, monolithic government, not the Democratic Party.
You show examples of anti-gubment nutbars and conflate that this supposed incitement to violence that’s coming from Rush or Beck or whomever on the Right is pushing these buttons, but the connection simply isn’t there. Go back to the early 1960s and the Dem’s accusation that JFK’s assassination was the result of the Right’s agitation. Last I checked, Lee Harvey was a former defector, an avowed Communist and solidly in the whacko wingnut club.
January 13, 2011 at 9:30 PM #654351Participant[quote=pri_dk][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Pri: Two problems here. First, I used the term “rising tide” deliberately. There is no such tide, and if you consult law enforcement resources like NCIC and VICAP, you’ll see that that’s case. You cite recent incidents, but I note you didn’t go back very far in your research. I’d be curious to see what happens when you stretch your timeline to the 1980s, for instance.[/quote]
“Rising tide” does not mean recent?
The list only goes back a couple of years. Which side lost the Presidency about two years ago and has had to resort to more desperate measures to regain power?
If you want me to keep going back in time, I can. We can add McVeigh and Waco to the list.
[quote]Second, how do these incidents you cite tie back into right-wing hate speech? In other words, were all of these incidents incited by right-wing hate speech? If the connection was there, I must have missed it.[/quote]
What more, specifically, would you need to see as evidence of a connection?[/quote]
Pri: My point, relative to “rising tide”, is that there is NOT a rising tide. Simple as that. Consult NCIC or VICAP if you need more evidence. As to the “desperate measures”: What desperate measures are you referring to? The Dems were “shellacked” (Obama’s term) in the mid-terms and the Dems are actively considering an opponent to run against Obama in the 2012 primaries (hence articles like Dana Millbank’s in the NYT bruiting Hillary’s name as the best option for a Dem win). The GOP is on the rise and polls and popular sentiment support that.
Yeah, add McVeigh and Waco. That is simply noise and not signal. McVeigh and Koresh were both wingnuts and, again, I’m not seeing a connection to right-wing hate speech motivating their actions. Hell, in the case of Koresh, he thought he was the Messiah, and I’m pretty sure the Messian ain’t taking his orders from Rush Limbaugh (as much as old Rush would like to think otherwise). If you read the FBI reporting on McVeigh, you’ll find he was motivated by a belief system and politics that had nothing to do with what he may have heard from Limbaugh or right-wing talk radio. He was a classic case of disaffected outsider who saw himself as striking a blow at an oppressive, monolithic government, not the Democratic Party.
You show examples of anti-gubment nutbars and conflate that this supposed incitement to violence that’s coming from Rush or Beck or whomever on the Right is pushing these buttons, but the connection simply isn’t there. Go back to the early 1960s and the Dem’s accusation that JFK’s assassination was the result of the Right’s agitation. Last I checked, Lee Harvey was a former defector, an avowed Communist and solidly in the whacko wingnut club.
January 13, 2011 at 9:54 PM #653270afx114
ParticipantHow can you not associate militant gun-weilding anti-government activists with the party of the military, guns, and small government? They may not be card-carrying members, but the Venn diagram is pretty damning.
January 13, 2011 at 9:54 PM #653335ParticipantHow can you not associate militant gun-weilding anti-government activists with the party of the military, guns, and small government? They may not be card-carrying members, but the Venn diagram is pretty damning.
January 13, 2011 at 9:54 PM #653921ParticipantHow can you not associate militant gun-weilding anti-government activists with the party of the military, guns, and small government? They may not be card-carrying members, but the Venn diagram is pretty damning.
January 13, 2011 at 9:54 PM #654056ParticipantHow can you not associate militant gun-weilding anti-government activists with the party of the military, guns, and small government? They may not be card-carrying members, but the Venn diagram is pretty damning.
January 13, 2011 at 9:54 PM #654381ParticipantHow can you not associate militant gun-weilding anti-government activists with the party of the military, guns, and small government? They may not be card-carrying members, but the Venn diagram is pretty damning.
January 13, 2011 at 10:25 PM #653279ucodegen
Participant[quote pri_dk]Apparently some folks missed a few points when they watched Schindler’s List.
Schindler owned the factory.
So much for Nazi socialism.[/quote]
Yep, you missed a few points. Schindler was a member of the National Socialist German Workers Party.. and he was sponsored in acquiring that factory by Nazis. He was an ‘inside’ man, or in the terms of the mafia.. a made man.You are making the assumption that the socialization ‘process’ of taking possession of companies was applied equitably. You also missed or ignored the statement:
Though normally described as being on the far right, there is a scholarly consensus that fascism was also influenced by the left, but with a focus on solutions from the right.
Adolf Hitler, both in public and in private, held strong disdain for capitalism; he accused modern capitalism of holding nations ransom in the interests of a parasitic cosmopolitan rentier class.
January 13, 2011 at 10:25 PM #653345Participant[quote pri_dk]Apparently some folks missed a few points when they watched Schindler’s List.
Schindler owned the factory.
So much for Nazi socialism.[/quote]
Yep, you missed a few points. Schindler was a member of the National Socialist German Workers Party.. and he was sponsored in acquiring that factory by Nazis. He was an ‘inside’ man, or in the terms of the mafia.. a made man.You are making the assumption that the socialization ‘process’ of taking possession of companies was applied equitably. You also missed or ignored the statement:
Though normally described as being on the far right, there is a scholarly consensus that fascism was also influenced by the left, but with a focus on solutions from the right.
Adolf Hitler, both in public and in private, held strong disdain for capitalism; he accused modern capitalism of holding nations ransom in the interests of a parasitic cosmopolitan rentier class.
January 13, 2011 at 10:25 PM #653931Participant[quote pri_dk]Apparently some folks missed a few points when they watched Schindler’s List.
Schindler owned the factory.
So much for Nazi socialism.[/quote]
Yep, you missed a few points. Schindler was a member of the National Socialist German Workers Party.. and he was sponsored in acquiring that factory by Nazis. He was an ‘inside’ man, or in the terms of the mafia.. a made man.You are making the assumption that the socialization ‘process’ of taking possession of companies was applied equitably. You also missed or ignored the statement:
Though normally described as being on the far right, there is a scholarly consensus that fascism was also influenced by the left, but with a focus on solutions from the right.
Adolf Hitler, both in public and in private, held strong disdain for capitalism; he accused modern capitalism of holding nations ransom in the interests of a parasitic cosmopolitan rentier class.
January 13, 2011 at 10:25 PM #654066Participant[quote pri_dk]Apparently some folks missed a few points when they watched Schindler’s List.
Schindler owned the factory.
So much for Nazi socialism.[/quote]
Yep, you missed a few points. Schindler was a member of the National Socialist German Workers Party.. and he was sponsored in acquiring that factory by Nazis. He was an ‘inside’ man, or in the terms of the mafia.. a made man.You are making the assumption that the socialization ‘process’ of taking possession of companies was applied equitably. You also missed or ignored the statement:
Though normally described as being on the far right, there is a scholarly consensus that fascism was also influenced by the left, but with a focus on solutions from the right.
Adolf Hitler, both in public and in private, held strong disdain for capitalism; he accused modern capitalism of holding nations ransom in the interests of a parasitic cosmopolitan rentier class.
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