OT: Sad day for America

[Anonymous]

Allan,

You are making a pretty simplistic assumption in your prior post.

There is no dispute that communism has done more evil than any form of government in history. There are two reasons for this “success:”

One, communism is inherently prone to corruption and the system has no mechanisms to prevent concentration of power into a dictatorship.

Two, the communists won WWII. The cold war that followed, with the constant fear of nuclear escalation, gave the communists almost free reign to cause trouble around the globe.

Most of the horrors you reference happened post WWII, after every significant(i.e. industrial) right wing extremist government was defeated. After the war, the Nazis didn’t exist. The communists were stronger than ever.

If the political systems of WWII Germany and Russia were reversed, the outcome of the postwar years would not have been much different, except that Pol Pot would have been labeled an extreme “rightist.” But he still would have been an insane despot.

So I think you are making a fundamental mistake in your analysis:

There is no correlation between “body count” and the structural flaws of a political system. The reason communists have a higher body count than right-wing extremists is because history provided communists the circumstances to thrive.

We should fear both extremes.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Pri: I would respectfully point out that, in Soviet Russia, a great deal of “the horrors” were pre-WWII, including mass starvation during collectivization and the “war against the kulaks”, and mass murder during Stalin’s Great Terror and Red Army purges. Millions either starved to death (largely Ukrainians and ethnic Poles) or were put to death following Soviet “show trials”. The killings continued through WWII, and now included those perpetrated by Hitler and the German war machine, after they invaded the USSR in 1941.

We can’t use China during WWII, because Communist China didn’t come into being until 1949, when the Nationalists fled to Formosa (Taiwan).

To say that the Coommunists were stronger than ever, then, is also incorrect. Yes, the Soviets did foment insurgency and insurrection throughout the world, mainly in the form of National Liberation Fronts (like the Viet Cong), but that wasn’t fully felt until the 1960s. The Soviets didn’t fully recover from WWII until the mid- to late-1950s.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Pri: I would respectfully point out that, in Soviet Russia, a great deal of “the horrors” were pre-WWII, including mass starvation during collectivization and the “war against the kulaks”, and mass murder during Stalin’s Great Terror and Red Army purges. Millions either starved to death (largely Ukrainians and ethnic Poles) or were put to death following Soviet “show trials”. The killings continued through WWII, and now included those perpetrated by Hitler and the German war machine, after they invaded the USSR in 1941.

We can’t use China during WWII, because Communist China didn’t come into being until 1949, when the Nationalists fled to Formosa (Taiwan).

To say that the Coommunists were stronger than ever, then, is also incorrect. Yes, the Soviets did foment insurgency and insurrection throughout the world, mainly in the form of National Liberation Fronts (like the Viet Cong), but that wasn’t fully felt until the 1960s. The Soviets didn’t fully recover from WWII until the mid- to late-1950s.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Pri: I would respectfully point out that, in Soviet Russia, a great deal of “the horrors” were pre-WWII, including mass starvation during collectivization and the “war against the kulaks”, and mass murder during Stalin’s Great Terror and Red Army purges. Millions either starved to death (largely Ukrainians and ethnic Poles) or were put to death following Soviet “show trials”. The killings continued through WWII, and now included those perpetrated by Hitler and the German war machine, after they invaded the USSR in 1941.

We can’t use China during WWII, because Communist China didn’t come into being until 1949, when the Nationalists fled to Formosa (Taiwan).

To say that the Coommunists were stronger than ever, then, is also incorrect. Yes, the Soviets did foment insurgency and insurrection throughout the world, mainly in the form of National Liberation Fronts (like the Viet Cong), but that wasn’t fully felt until the 1960s. The Soviets didn’t fully recover from WWII until the mid- to late-1950s.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Pri: I would respectfully point out that, in Soviet Russia, a great deal of “the horrors” were pre-WWII, including mass starvation during collectivization and the “war against the kulaks”, and mass murder during Stalin’s Great Terror and Red Army purges. Millions either starved to death (largely Ukrainians and ethnic Poles) or were put to death following Soviet “show trials”. The killings continued through WWII, and now included those perpetrated by Hitler and the German war machine, after they invaded the USSR in 1941.

We can’t use China during WWII, because Communist China didn’t come into being until 1949, when the Nationalists fled to Formosa (Taiwan).

To say that the Coommunists were stronger than ever, then, is also incorrect. Yes, the Soviets did foment insurgency and insurrection throughout the world, mainly in the form of National Liberation Fronts (like the Viet Cong), but that wasn’t fully felt until the 1960s. The Soviets didn’t fully recover from WWII until the mid- to late-1950s.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Pri: I would respectfully point out that, in Soviet Russia, a great deal of “the horrors” were pre-WWII, including mass starvation during collectivization and the “war against the kulaks”, and mass murder during Stalin’s Great Terror and Red Army purges. Millions either starved to death (largely Ukrainians and ethnic Poles) or were put to death following Soviet “show trials”. The killings continued through WWII, and now included those perpetrated by Hitler and the German war machine, after they invaded the USSR in 1941.

We can’t use China during WWII, because Communist China didn’t come into being until 1949, when the Nationalists fled to Formosa (Taiwan).

To say that the Coommunists were stronger than ever, then, is also incorrect. Yes, the Soviets did foment insurgency and insurrection throughout the world, mainly in the form of National Liberation Fronts (like the Viet Cong), but that wasn’t fully felt until the 1960s. The Soviets didn’t fully recover from WWII until the mid- to late-1950s.

[briansd1]

Sarah Palin speaks:

She said that acts like the shootings in Arizona “begin and end with the criminals who commit them, not collectively with all the citizens of a state.”

I wish Palin and other Americans would feel the same about terrorism and muslims.

Why do we invade whole countries because of the acts of few individuals?

[briansd1]

Sarah Palin speaks:

She said that acts like the shootings in Arizona “begin and end with the criminals who commit them, not collectively with all the citizens of a state.”

I wish Palin and other Americans would feel the same about terrorism and muslims.

Why do we invade whole countries because of the acts of few individuals?

[briansd1]

Sarah Palin speaks:

She said that acts like the shootings in Arizona “begin and end with the criminals who commit them, not collectively with all the citizens of a state.”

I wish Palin and other Americans would feel the same about terrorism and muslims.

Why do we invade whole countries because of the acts of few individuals?

[briansd1]

Sarah Palin speaks:

She said that acts like the shootings in Arizona “begin and end with the criminals who commit them, not collectively with all the citizens of a state.”

I wish Palin and other Americans would feel the same about terrorism and muslims.

Why do we invade whole countries because of the acts of few individuals?

[briansd1]

Sarah Palin speaks:

She said that acts like the shootings in Arizona “begin and end with the criminals who commit them, not collectively with all the citizens of a state.”

I wish Palin and other Americans would feel the same about terrorism and muslims.

Why do we invade whole countries because of the acts of few individuals?

[Anonymous]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]in Soviet Russia, a great deal of “the horrors” were pre-WWII[/quote]

I knew you were going to mention that. 🙂

Doesn’t really change the point though. The Nazis did lots of bad things “pre” WWII also.

The commies just have a higher body count because they had a head start.

And I understand that communism grew since WWII, but point is the outcome of the war positioned it to expand with minimal obstacles, while the Nazis were pretty-much kaput.

Religions are similar. Every religion has been twisted by extremists to do evil (even “peaceful” Buddhism.) Some religions have higher body counts because the events of history has given them more opportunity to exploit.

In the end, it’s not about the “ism” – it’s about power and how humans collectively react to it. The brilliance of the American Constitution is that it accounts for these inevitable abuses.

In fact, the *whole point* of the Constitution is to prevent the concentration of power.

But the one force that can usurp even the Constitution is blind patriotism. The idea that we should make compromises to its core principles for the “good of the country.”

(And health care reform is *not* an example of one of these compromises, as it does not really concentrate power with anyone. It may be a bad idea – but it is not a threat to the Constitution.)

What is an example of a threat? How about the elimination of due process in order to protect ourselves from a vaguely-defined “enemy?” – A perfect example of what the Founders tried to prevent.

Neither the left or right is inherently evil, but sometimes one side far more influence than the other. That’s when the evil happens.

“Shoot him in the head before it goes into a court”

(I know this clip applies to a someone captured on foreign soil, but we hear the same logic being applied to domestic cases against US citizens as well.)

6 million listeners, and only in 3rd place. (Guess who #1 and #2 are?)

You say there is just as much vitriol coming from the left?

[Anonymous]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]in Soviet Russia, a great deal of “the horrors” were pre-WWII[/quote]

I knew you were going to mention that. 🙂

Doesn’t really change the point though. The Nazis did lots of bad things “pre” WWII also.

The commies just have a higher body count because they had a head start.

And I understand that communism grew since WWII, but point is the outcome of the war positioned it to expand with minimal obstacles, while the Nazis were pretty-much kaput.

Religions are similar. Every religion has been twisted by extremists to do evil (even “peaceful” Buddhism.) Some religions have higher body counts because the events of history has given them more opportunity to exploit.

In the end, it’s not about the “ism” – it’s about power and how humans collectively react to it. The brilliance of the American Constitution is that it accounts for these inevitable abuses.

In fact, the *whole point* of the Constitution is to prevent the concentration of power.

But the one force that can usurp even the Constitution is blind patriotism. The idea that we should make compromises to its core principles for the “good of the country.”

(And health care reform is *not* an example of one of these compromises, as it does not really concentrate power with anyone. It may be a bad idea – but it is not a threat to the Constitution.)

What is an example of a threat? How about the elimination of due process in order to protect ourselves from a vaguely-defined “enemy?” – A perfect example of what the Founders tried to prevent.

Neither the left or right is inherently evil, but sometimes one side far more influence than the other. That’s when the evil happens.

“Shoot him in the head before it goes into a court”

(I know this clip applies to a someone captured on foreign soil, but we hear the same logic being applied to domestic cases against US citizens as well.)

6 million listeners, and only in 3rd place. (Guess who #1 and #2 are?)

You say there is just as much vitriol coming from the left?

[Anonymous]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]in Soviet Russia, a great deal of “the horrors” were pre-WWII[/quote]

I knew you were going to mention that. 🙂

Doesn’t really change the point though. The Nazis did lots of bad things “pre” WWII also.

The commies just have a higher body count because they had a head start.

And I understand that communism grew since WWII, but point is the outcome of the war positioned it to expand with minimal obstacles, while the Nazis were pretty-much kaput.

Religions are similar. Every religion has been twisted by extremists to do evil (even “peaceful” Buddhism.) Some religions have higher body counts because the events of history has given them more opportunity to exploit.

In the end, it’s not about the “ism” – it’s about power and how humans collectively react to it. The brilliance of the American Constitution is that it accounts for these inevitable abuses.

In fact, the *whole point* of the Constitution is to prevent the concentration of power.

But the one force that can usurp even the Constitution is blind patriotism. The idea that we should make compromises to its core principles for the “good of the country.”

(And health care reform is *not* an example of one of these compromises, as it does not really concentrate power with anyone. It may be a bad idea – but it is not a threat to the Constitution.)

What is an example of a threat? How about the elimination of due process in order to protect ourselves from a vaguely-defined “enemy?” – A perfect example of what the Founders tried to prevent.

Neither the left or right is inherently evil, but sometimes one side far more influence than the other. That’s when the evil happens.

“Shoot him in the head before it goes into a court”

(I know this clip applies to a someone captured on foreign soil, but we hear the same logic being applied to domestic cases against US citizens as well.)

6 million listeners, and only in 3rd place. (Guess who #1 and #2 are?)

You say there is just as much vitriol coming from the left?

[Anonymous]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]in Soviet Russia, a great deal of “the horrors” were pre-WWII[/quote]

I knew you were going to mention that. 🙂

Doesn’t really change the point though. The Nazis did lots of bad things “pre” WWII also.

The commies just have a higher body count because they had a head start.

And I understand that communism grew since WWII, but point is the outcome of the war positioned it to expand with minimal obstacles, while the Nazis were pretty-much kaput.

Religions are similar. Every religion has been twisted by extremists to do evil (even “peaceful” Buddhism.) Some religions have higher body counts because the events of history has given them more opportunity to exploit.

In the end, it’s not about the “ism” – it’s about power and how humans collectively react to it. The brilliance of the American Constitution is that it accounts for these inevitable abuses.

In fact, the *whole point* of the Constitution is to prevent the concentration of power.

But the one force that can usurp even the Constitution is blind patriotism. The idea that we should make compromises to its core principles for the “good of the country.”

(And health care reform is *not* an example of one of these compromises, as it does not really concentrate power with anyone. It may be a bad idea – but it is not a threat to the Constitution.)

What is an example of a threat? How about the elimination of due process in order to protect ourselves from a vaguely-defined “enemy?” – A perfect example of what the Founders tried to prevent.

Neither the left or right is inherently evil, but sometimes one side far more influence than the other. That’s when the evil happens.

“Shoot him in the head before it goes into a court”

(I know this clip applies to a someone captured on foreign soil, but we hear the same logic being applied to domestic cases against US citizens as well.)

6 million listeners, and only in 3rd place. (Guess who #1 and #2 are?)

You say there is just as much vitriol coming from the left?

[Author]

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