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Arraya.
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January 11, 2011 at 8:43 AM #652272January 11, 2011 at 9:08 AM #651173
jstoesz
ParticipantI too find this discussion particularly funny. I personally find little offensive (although little in life is offensive if you always consider the source). My beef with the current national conversation is not that is vitriolic (a word I have heard far too often lately), but that it is painfully banal. I would appreciate a more vitriolic conversation if it were at least filled with creative and covert insults instead of trite analogies to Hitler (see Dave Barry “how to win and argument”). But to be fair to Barry, a good bit of booze would also probably improve the conversation as well. Who ever thinks the us vs. them attitude in the media caused this tragedy must also think Marilyn Manson killed those kids in columbine. Maybe it is our societies inability to express itself, devoid of F words, that has caused a nation of frustrated schizophrenics. Or maybe we should herald the guidance of plato for a boxing ring in the center of every town (although he was most certainly a fascist).
January 11, 2011 at 9:08 AM #651241ParticipantI too find this discussion particularly funny. I personally find little offensive (although little in life is offensive if you always consider the source). My beef with the current national conversation is not that is vitriolic (a word I have heard far too often lately), but that it is painfully banal. I would appreciate a more vitriolic conversation if it were at least filled with creative and covert insults instead of trite analogies to Hitler (see Dave Barry “how to win and argument”). But to be fair to Barry, a good bit of booze would also probably improve the conversation as well. Who ever thinks the us vs. them attitude in the media caused this tragedy must also think Marilyn Manson killed those kids in columbine. Maybe it is our societies inability to express itself, devoid of F words, that has caused a nation of frustrated schizophrenics. Or maybe we should herald the guidance of plato for a boxing ring in the center of every town (although he was most certainly a fascist).
January 11, 2011 at 9:08 AM #651823ParticipantI too find this discussion particularly funny. I personally find little offensive (although little in life is offensive if you always consider the source). My beef with the current national conversation is not that is vitriolic (a word I have heard far too often lately), but that it is painfully banal. I would appreciate a more vitriolic conversation if it were at least filled with creative and covert insults instead of trite analogies to Hitler (see Dave Barry “how to win and argument”). But to be fair to Barry, a good bit of booze would also probably improve the conversation as well. Who ever thinks the us vs. them attitude in the media caused this tragedy must also think Marilyn Manson killed those kids in columbine. Maybe it is our societies inability to express itself, devoid of F words, that has caused a nation of frustrated schizophrenics. Or maybe we should herald the guidance of plato for a boxing ring in the center of every town (although he was most certainly a fascist).
January 11, 2011 at 9:08 AM #651958ParticipantI too find this discussion particularly funny. I personally find little offensive (although little in life is offensive if you always consider the source). My beef with the current national conversation is not that is vitriolic (a word I have heard far too often lately), but that it is painfully banal. I would appreciate a more vitriolic conversation if it were at least filled with creative and covert insults instead of trite analogies to Hitler (see Dave Barry “how to win and argument”). But to be fair to Barry, a good bit of booze would also probably improve the conversation as well. Who ever thinks the us vs. them attitude in the media caused this tragedy must also think Marilyn Manson killed those kids in columbine. Maybe it is our societies inability to express itself, devoid of F words, that has caused a nation of frustrated schizophrenics. Or maybe we should herald the guidance of plato for a boxing ring in the center of every town (although he was most certainly a fascist).
January 11, 2011 at 9:08 AM #652287ParticipantI too find this discussion particularly funny. I personally find little offensive (although little in life is offensive if you always consider the source). My beef with the current national conversation is not that is vitriolic (a word I have heard far too often lately), but that it is painfully banal. I would appreciate a more vitriolic conversation if it were at least filled with creative and covert insults instead of trite analogies to Hitler (see Dave Barry “how to win and argument”). But to be fair to Barry, a good bit of booze would also probably improve the conversation as well. Who ever thinks the us vs. them attitude in the media caused this tragedy must also think Marilyn Manson killed those kids in columbine. Maybe it is our societies inability to express itself, devoid of F words, that has caused a nation of frustrated schizophrenics. Or maybe we should herald the guidance of plato for a boxing ring in the center of every town (although he was most certainly a fascist).
January 11, 2011 at 9:59 AM #651223NotCranky
Participant[/quote]
I think that calling on ‘indoctrination’ to violence for “National Strength” is a red herring. People need to be responsible for their own behavior and not blame it on outside factors. Besides, where is this so called indoctrination? The military presence in Afghanistan and Iraq has been continually brought to question. If you want to see indoctrination, check North Korea. Another country to check would be Japan leading up to WWII.No Ucodeng, comparing us to Japan and North Korea is a red herring and also the propaganda tool of pointing fingers at the other guy, any other guy as long as we don’t like them. How can you find the “indoctrination” here when you do that so that you can not see it? Afghanistan and Iraq are not it they are facilitated by it.
When is the last time we had a peaceful leader? I am not well versed in history but I know you have to go past the last DRAFT. Martin Luther King was there for a while. Ron Paul talks about “stopping being the police of the world” but who cares what Ron Paul says?
For the most part young children are indoctrinated into the acceptance violence and weapons and allegiance to the Flag, not direct militarism. Have you ever checked the toy section?Direct military indoctrination would have too many problems.That said, Why did my kid have a “freedom walk” on September 11th a few years back, lead by military people in uniform when he was in EAK, that’s four years old. The transition of the acceptance of violence to the military ramps up when kids are a little older. Maybe you don’t watch football. I saw a commercial last year recruiting kids by saying you can be as heroic as an NFL player by being a Marine Those amazing weapons that you can find in the toy aisle in miniature were proudly on display. Why do we have to see no less than 50 American flags every time a national politician is on TV talking for public consumption. Do we not know they are American?
Why does the BUSH, pass the “Respect for national fallen war “Heros” act” Instead of you can’t mess with dead people and their grieving families for any reason act? Military Propaganda is in families like religion. It is the fact that so much employment opportunity is controlled by the huge military industrial complex. It is almost everywhere.
[/quote]January 11, 2011 at 9:59 AM #651291Participant[/quote]
I think that calling on ‘indoctrination’ to violence for “National Strength” is a red herring. People need to be responsible for their own behavior and not blame it on outside factors. Besides, where is this so called indoctrination? The military presence in Afghanistan and Iraq has been continually brought to question. If you want to see indoctrination, check North Korea. Another country to check would be Japan leading up to WWII.No Ucodeng, comparing us to Japan and North Korea is a red herring and also the propaganda tool of pointing fingers at the other guy, any other guy as long as we don’t like them. How can you find the “indoctrination” here when you do that so that you can not see it? Afghanistan and Iraq are not it they are facilitated by it.
When is the last time we had a peaceful leader? I am not well versed in history but I know you have to go past the last DRAFT. Martin Luther King was there for a while. Ron Paul talks about “stopping being the police of the world” but who cares what Ron Paul says?
For the most part young children are indoctrinated into the acceptance violence and weapons and allegiance to the Flag, not direct militarism. Have you ever checked the toy section?Direct military indoctrination would have too many problems.That said, Why did my kid have a “freedom walk” on September 11th a few years back, lead by military people in uniform when he was in EAK, that’s four years old. The transition of the acceptance of violence to the military ramps up when kids are a little older. Maybe you don’t watch football. I saw a commercial last year recruiting kids by saying you can be as heroic as an NFL player by being a Marine Those amazing weapons that you can find in the toy aisle in miniature were proudly on display. Why do we have to see no less than 50 American flags every time a national politician is on TV talking for public consumption. Do we not know they are American?
Why does the BUSH, pass the “Respect for national fallen war “Heros” act” Instead of you can’t mess with dead people and their grieving families for any reason act? Military Propaganda is in families like religion. It is the fact that so much employment opportunity is controlled by the huge military industrial complex. It is almost everywhere.
[/quote]January 11, 2011 at 9:59 AM #651872Participant[/quote]
I think that calling on ‘indoctrination’ to violence for “National Strength” is a red herring. People need to be responsible for their own behavior and not blame it on outside factors. Besides, where is this so called indoctrination? The military presence in Afghanistan and Iraq has been continually brought to question. If you want to see indoctrination, check North Korea. Another country to check would be Japan leading up to WWII.No Ucodeng, comparing us to Japan and North Korea is a red herring and also the propaganda tool of pointing fingers at the other guy, any other guy as long as we don’t like them. How can you find the “indoctrination” here when you do that so that you can not see it? Afghanistan and Iraq are not it they are facilitated by it.
When is the last time we had a peaceful leader? I am not well versed in history but I know you have to go past the last DRAFT. Martin Luther King was there for a while. Ron Paul talks about “stopping being the police of the world” but who cares what Ron Paul says?
For the most part young children are indoctrinated into the acceptance violence and weapons and allegiance to the Flag, not direct militarism. Have you ever checked the toy section?Direct military indoctrination would have too many problems.That said, Why did my kid have a “freedom walk” on September 11th a few years back, lead by military people in uniform when he was in EAK, that’s four years old. The transition of the acceptance of violence to the military ramps up when kids are a little older. Maybe you don’t watch football. I saw a commercial last year recruiting kids by saying you can be as heroic as an NFL player by being a Marine Those amazing weapons that you can find in the toy aisle in miniature were proudly on display. Why do we have to see no less than 50 American flags every time a national politician is on TV talking for public consumption. Do we not know they are American?
Why does the BUSH, pass the “Respect for national fallen war “Heros” act” Instead of you can’t mess with dead people and their grieving families for any reason act? Military Propaganda is in families like religion. It is the fact that so much employment opportunity is controlled by the huge military industrial complex. It is almost everywhere.
[/quote]January 11, 2011 at 9:59 AM #652008Participant[/quote]
I think that calling on ‘indoctrination’ to violence for “National Strength” is a red herring. People need to be responsible for their own behavior and not blame it on outside factors. Besides, where is this so called indoctrination? The military presence in Afghanistan and Iraq has been continually brought to question. If you want to see indoctrination, check North Korea. Another country to check would be Japan leading up to WWII.No Ucodeng, comparing us to Japan and North Korea is a red herring and also the propaganda tool of pointing fingers at the other guy, any other guy as long as we don’t like them. How can you find the “indoctrination” here when you do that so that you can not see it? Afghanistan and Iraq are not it they are facilitated by it.
When is the last time we had a peaceful leader? I am not well versed in history but I know you have to go past the last DRAFT. Martin Luther King was there for a while. Ron Paul talks about “stopping being the police of the world” but who cares what Ron Paul says?
For the most part young children are indoctrinated into the acceptance violence and weapons and allegiance to the Flag, not direct militarism. Have you ever checked the toy section?Direct military indoctrination would have too many problems.That said, Why did my kid have a “freedom walk” on September 11th a few years back, lead by military people in uniform when he was in EAK, that’s four years old. The transition of the acceptance of violence to the military ramps up when kids are a little older. Maybe you don’t watch football. I saw a commercial last year recruiting kids by saying you can be as heroic as an NFL player by being a Marine Those amazing weapons that you can find in the toy aisle in miniature were proudly on display. Why do we have to see no less than 50 American flags every time a national politician is on TV talking for public consumption. Do we not know they are American?
Why does the BUSH, pass the “Respect for national fallen war “Heros” act” Instead of you can’t mess with dead people and their grieving families for any reason act? Military Propaganda is in families like religion. It is the fact that so much employment opportunity is controlled by the huge military industrial complex. It is almost everywhere.
[/quote]January 11, 2011 at 9:59 AM #652337Participant[/quote]
I think that calling on ‘indoctrination’ to violence for “National Strength” is a red herring. People need to be responsible for their own behavior and not blame it on outside factors. Besides, where is this so called indoctrination? The military presence in Afghanistan and Iraq has been continually brought to question. If you want to see indoctrination, check North Korea. Another country to check would be Japan leading up to WWII.No Ucodeng, comparing us to Japan and North Korea is a red herring and also the propaganda tool of pointing fingers at the other guy, any other guy as long as we don’t like them. How can you find the “indoctrination” here when you do that so that you can not see it? Afghanistan and Iraq are not it they are facilitated by it.
When is the last time we had a peaceful leader? I am not well versed in history but I know you have to go past the last DRAFT. Martin Luther King was there for a while. Ron Paul talks about “stopping being the police of the world” but who cares what Ron Paul says?
For the most part young children are indoctrinated into the acceptance violence and weapons and allegiance to the Flag, not direct militarism. Have you ever checked the toy section?Direct military indoctrination would have too many problems.That said, Why did my kid have a “freedom walk” on September 11th a few years back, lead by military people in uniform when he was in EAK, that’s four years old. The transition of the acceptance of violence to the military ramps up when kids are a little older. Maybe you don’t watch football. I saw a commercial last year recruiting kids by saying you can be as heroic as an NFL player by being a Marine Those amazing weapons that you can find in the toy aisle in miniature were proudly on display. Why do we have to see no less than 50 American flags every time a national politician is on TV talking for public consumption. Do we not know they are American?
Why does the BUSH, pass the “Respect for national fallen war “Heros” act” Instead of you can’t mess with dead people and their grieving families for any reason act? Military Propaganda is in families like religion. It is the fact that so much employment opportunity is controlled by the huge military industrial complex. It is almost everywhere.
[/quote]January 11, 2011 at 10:24 AM #651308Allan from Fallbrook
Participant[quote=Arraya]Good grief. For some reason smart conservatives become brain dead when talking about Nazism and Fascism in regards to political spectrum. Sure they were called the National Socialist Party, which I guess is good enough and operation just does not matter.
What I find interesting, also, is that they often imply that ‘society’ owning means of production and resources, none of which happened in Nazi germany, somehow inexplicably leads to genocidal behavior and mass murder. Which, therefor implicitly means that a small elite minority owning everything leads to peace and tranquility.[/quote]
Arraya: I think much of the misunderstanding stems from a certain willfulness to not understand (i.e. the worry that admitting that the Nazis were Rightists is problematic), but a larger issue is that Hitler was entirely inconsistent in his ideology. Whether it took the form of contradictory speeches and edicts, or his alliance with Stalin and Soviet Russia (until he invaded), there are plenty of examples of a lack of coherence in Nazi policy.
Bottom line: Nazi Germany was Rightist, but not right-wing (in the sense that Americans understand it), just as Soviet Russia was Leftist (in the sense that Americans understand it). However, neither adhered to any “true” ideology (Stalin quickly abandoned Marxism and Hitler rapidly reconfigured Germany into a corporatist fascist state, once he had seized power).
January 11, 2011 at 10:24 AM #651374Participant[quote=Arraya]Good grief. For some reason smart conservatives become brain dead when talking about Nazism and Fascism in regards to political spectrum. Sure they were called the National Socialist Party, which I guess is good enough and operation just does not matter.
What I find interesting, also, is that they often imply that ‘society’ owning means of production and resources, none of which happened in Nazi germany, somehow inexplicably leads to genocidal behavior and mass murder. Which, therefor implicitly means that a small elite minority owning everything leads to peace and tranquility.[/quote]
Arraya: I think much of the misunderstanding stems from a certain willfulness to not understand (i.e. the worry that admitting that the Nazis were Rightists is problematic), but a larger issue is that Hitler was entirely inconsistent in his ideology. Whether it took the form of contradictory speeches and edicts, or his alliance with Stalin and Soviet Russia (until he invaded), there are plenty of examples of a lack of coherence in Nazi policy.
Bottom line: Nazi Germany was Rightist, but not right-wing (in the sense that Americans understand it), just as Soviet Russia was Leftist (in the sense that Americans understand it). However, neither adhered to any “true” ideology (Stalin quickly abandoned Marxism and Hitler rapidly reconfigured Germany into a corporatist fascist state, once he had seized power).
January 11, 2011 at 10:24 AM #651957Participant[quote=Arraya]Good grief. For some reason smart conservatives become brain dead when talking about Nazism and Fascism in regards to political spectrum. Sure they were called the National Socialist Party, which I guess is good enough and operation just does not matter.
What I find interesting, also, is that they often imply that ‘society’ owning means of production and resources, none of which happened in Nazi germany, somehow inexplicably leads to genocidal behavior and mass murder. Which, therefor implicitly means that a small elite minority owning everything leads to peace and tranquility.[/quote]
Arraya: I think much of the misunderstanding stems from a certain willfulness to not understand (i.e. the worry that admitting that the Nazis were Rightists is problematic), but a larger issue is that Hitler was entirely inconsistent in his ideology. Whether it took the form of contradictory speeches and edicts, or his alliance with Stalin and Soviet Russia (until he invaded), there are plenty of examples of a lack of coherence in Nazi policy.
Bottom line: Nazi Germany was Rightist, but not right-wing (in the sense that Americans understand it), just as Soviet Russia was Leftist (in the sense that Americans understand it). However, neither adhered to any “true” ideology (Stalin quickly abandoned Marxism and Hitler rapidly reconfigured Germany into a corporatist fascist state, once he had seized power).
January 11, 2011 at 10:24 AM #652094Participant[quote=Arraya]Good grief. For some reason smart conservatives become brain dead when talking about Nazism and Fascism in regards to political spectrum. Sure they were called the National Socialist Party, which I guess is good enough and operation just does not matter.
What I find interesting, also, is that they often imply that ‘society’ owning means of production and resources, none of which happened in Nazi germany, somehow inexplicably leads to genocidal behavior and mass murder. Which, therefor implicitly means that a small elite minority owning everything leads to peace and tranquility.[/quote]
Arraya: I think much of the misunderstanding stems from a certain willfulness to not understand (i.e. the worry that admitting that the Nazis were Rightists is problematic), but a larger issue is that Hitler was entirely inconsistent in his ideology. Whether it took the form of contradictory speeches and edicts, or his alliance with Stalin and Soviet Russia (until he invaded), there are plenty of examples of a lack of coherence in Nazi policy.
Bottom line: Nazi Germany was Rightist, but not right-wing (in the sense that Americans understand it), just as Soviet Russia was Leftist (in the sense that Americans understand it). However, neither adhered to any “true” ideology (Stalin quickly abandoned Marxism and Hitler rapidly reconfigured Germany into a corporatist fascist state, once he had seized power).
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