OT: Sad day for America

[UCGal]

[quote=faterikcartman]
The shooter was known as a liberal. Weren’t his fave books by communists and socialists? [/quote]

The shooter was a nut job.
To say he was liberal (or conservative) is a stretch from the limited info we have.
From what I’ve read he listed both the Communist Manifesto AND Mein Kampf as books he endorsed. I don’t think Mein Kampf is liberal.

Hitler (author of Mein Kampf) was the ultimate authoritarian. Yet this disturbed kid also promoted Animal Farm – which is a satire that warns against authoritarianism.

I don’t think ANY of us have any idea what this kids’ politics are.

And Gifford was a conservative Dem… not part of the liberal branch of democratic caucus. She was a blue dog. From many people’s perspective she represented the middle, the independents and moderates.

This isn’t a right left thing… this is a schizophrenic break thing. It is not rational.

[Djshakes]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=afx114]Agreed that there exists vitriolic assholes on both sides, but it’s a false equivalency to compare any of the left’s ill-advised statements to the right’s gleeful fetishization of guns, “don’t retreat, reload!”, “renewing the tree of liberty” and “2nd amendment remedies.” The comparison doesn’t even come close. I really was hoping the discussion wouldn’t turn into a left-vs-right thing, but it almost begs it.

Even if his personal motivations weren’t political, the fact that his target was a politician makes this an inherently political attack. Events like this don’t happen in a vacuum.

[/quote]

Afx: Two things. First, with a little bit of research on the shooter, you’ll find that he was obsessed with Gifford as far back as 2007, and that his motivation does appear to be personal, not political (a la Hinckley shooting Reagan for his inamorata, Jodie Foster).

Second, it is not a false equivalency to compare Left to Right on this. No, I’m not condoning Beck or Limbaugh, because I do think they’re assholes and contribute nothing to the debate. But, for every Beck or Limbaugh, I can offer a Dylan Ratigan, or a Mike Malloy, or even a Bill Maher. And their speech is just as virulent and violent and they agitate and advocate death and violence with equal ferocity. Think about Ward Churchill’s comments following 9/11 (the “little Eichmanns” who perished in the Twin Towers). Or Nina Totenberg, or Susan Sontag, or Julianne Malveaux, who suggested, without a trace of irony or humor, that Clarence Thomas’s wife feed him plenty of eggs and butter, so he’d die early “like many black men do” (her words, not mine).

I’m sorry but there is an established culture on both sides, Left and Right, that espouses violence as an answer and literally treats its opponents as targets. The Left does it with a little more panache and brio (being the cultural elite and all), but its there and you don’t have to look far to find it.[/quote]

Do you have hard evidence of Beck or Limbaugh inciting violence? I have never heard any, in fact, Beck’s talk show today was the exact opposite. I would ask the same thing of the people on the left you mention but I don’t listen to them (I don’t listen to Limbaugh either).

Seems he is quite anti-violence.

http://www.glennbeck.com/2011/01/10/glenns-letter-to-the-american-people-politicians-and-media/

[Djshakes]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=afx114]Agreed that there exists vitriolic assholes on both sides, but it’s a false equivalency to compare any of the left’s ill-advised statements to the right’s gleeful fetishization of guns, “don’t retreat, reload!”, “renewing the tree of liberty” and “2nd amendment remedies.” The comparison doesn’t even come close. I really was hoping the discussion wouldn’t turn into a left-vs-right thing, but it almost begs it.

Even if his personal motivations weren’t political, the fact that his target was a politician makes this an inherently political attack. Events like this don’t happen in a vacuum.

[/quote]

Afx: Two things. First, with a little bit of research on the shooter, you’ll find that he was obsessed with Gifford as far back as 2007, and that his motivation does appear to be personal, not political (a la Hinckley shooting Reagan for his inamorata, Jodie Foster).

Second, it is not a false equivalency to compare Left to Right on this. No, I’m not condoning Beck or Limbaugh, because I do think they’re assholes and contribute nothing to the debate. But, for every Beck or Limbaugh, I can offer a Dylan Ratigan, or a Mike Malloy, or even a Bill Maher. And their speech is just as virulent and violent and they agitate and advocate death and violence with equal ferocity. Think about Ward Churchill’s comments following 9/11 (the “little Eichmanns” who perished in the Twin Towers). Or Nina Totenberg, or Susan Sontag, or Julianne Malveaux, who suggested, without a trace of irony or humor, that Clarence Thomas’s wife feed him plenty of eggs and butter, so he’d die early “like many black men do” (her words, not mine).

I’m sorry but there is an established culture on both sides, Left and Right, that espouses violence as an answer and literally treats its opponents as targets. The Left does it with a little more panache and brio (being the cultural elite and all), but its there and you don’t have to look far to find it.[/quote]

Do you have hard evidence of Beck or Limbaugh inciting violence? I have never heard any, in fact, Beck’s talk show today was the exact opposite. I would ask the same thing of the people on the left you mention but I don’t listen to them (I don’t listen to Limbaugh either).

Seems he is quite anti-violence.

http://www.glennbeck.com/2011/01/10/glenns-letter-to-the-american-people-politicians-and-media/

[Djshakes]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=afx114]Agreed that there exists vitriolic assholes on both sides, but it’s a false equivalency to compare any of the left’s ill-advised statements to the right’s gleeful fetishization of guns, “don’t retreat, reload!”, “renewing the tree of liberty” and “2nd amendment remedies.” The comparison doesn’t even come close. I really was hoping the discussion wouldn’t turn into a left-vs-right thing, but it almost begs it.

Even if his personal motivations weren’t political, the fact that his target was a politician makes this an inherently political attack. Events like this don’t happen in a vacuum.

[/quote]

Afx: Two things. First, with a little bit of research on the shooter, you’ll find that he was obsessed with Gifford as far back as 2007, and that his motivation does appear to be personal, not political (a la Hinckley shooting Reagan for his inamorata, Jodie Foster).

Second, it is not a false equivalency to compare Left to Right on this. No, I’m not condoning Beck or Limbaugh, because I do think they’re assholes and contribute nothing to the debate. But, for every Beck or Limbaugh, I can offer a Dylan Ratigan, or a Mike Malloy, or even a Bill Maher. And their speech is just as virulent and violent and they agitate and advocate death and violence with equal ferocity. Think about Ward Churchill’s comments following 9/11 (the “little Eichmanns” who perished in the Twin Towers). Or Nina Totenberg, or Susan Sontag, or Julianne Malveaux, who suggested, without a trace of irony or humor, that Clarence Thomas’s wife feed him plenty of eggs and butter, so he’d die early “like many black men do” (her words, not mine).

I’m sorry but there is an established culture on both sides, Left and Right, that espouses violence as an answer and literally treats its opponents as targets. The Left does it with a little more panache and brio (being the cultural elite and all), but its there and you don’t have to look far to find it.[/quote]

Do you have hard evidence of Beck or Limbaugh inciting violence? I have never heard any, in fact, Beck’s talk show today was the exact opposite. I would ask the same thing of the people on the left you mention but I don’t listen to them (I don’t listen to Limbaugh either).

Seems he is quite anti-violence.

http://www.glennbeck.com/2011/01/10/glenns-letter-to-the-american-people-politicians-and-media/

[Djshakes]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=afx114]Agreed that there exists vitriolic assholes on both sides, but it’s a false equivalency to compare any of the left’s ill-advised statements to the right’s gleeful fetishization of guns, “don’t retreat, reload!”, “renewing the tree of liberty” and “2nd amendment remedies.” The comparison doesn’t even come close. I really was hoping the discussion wouldn’t turn into a left-vs-right thing, but it almost begs it.

Even if his personal motivations weren’t political, the fact that his target was a politician makes this an inherently political attack. Events like this don’t happen in a vacuum.

[/quote]

Afx: Two things. First, with a little bit of research on the shooter, you’ll find that he was obsessed with Gifford as far back as 2007, and that his motivation does appear to be personal, not political (a la Hinckley shooting Reagan for his inamorata, Jodie Foster).

Second, it is not a false equivalency to compare Left to Right on this. No, I’m not condoning Beck or Limbaugh, because I do think they’re assholes and contribute nothing to the debate. But, for every Beck or Limbaugh, I can offer a Dylan Ratigan, or a Mike Malloy, or even a Bill Maher. And their speech is just as virulent and violent and they agitate and advocate death and violence with equal ferocity. Think about Ward Churchill’s comments following 9/11 (the “little Eichmanns” who perished in the Twin Towers). Or Nina Totenberg, or Susan Sontag, or Julianne Malveaux, who suggested, without a trace of irony or humor, that Clarence Thomas’s wife feed him plenty of eggs and butter, so he’d die early “like many black men do” (her words, not mine).

I’m sorry but there is an established culture on both sides, Left and Right, that espouses violence as an answer and literally treats its opponents as targets. The Left does it with a little more panache and brio (being the cultural elite and all), but its there and you don’t have to look far to find it.[/quote]

Do you have hard evidence of Beck or Limbaugh inciting violence? I have never heard any, in fact, Beck’s talk show today was the exact opposite. I would ask the same thing of the people on the left you mention but I don’t listen to them (I don’t listen to Limbaugh either).

Seems he is quite anti-violence.

http://www.glennbeck.com/2011/01/10/glenns-letter-to-the-american-people-politicians-and-media/

[Djshakes]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=afx114]Agreed that there exists vitriolic assholes on both sides, but it’s a false equivalency to compare any of the left’s ill-advised statements to the right’s gleeful fetishization of guns, “don’t retreat, reload!”, “renewing the tree of liberty” and “2nd amendment remedies.” The comparison doesn’t even come close. I really was hoping the discussion wouldn’t turn into a left-vs-right thing, but it almost begs it.

Even if his personal motivations weren’t political, the fact that his target was a politician makes this an inherently political attack. Events like this don’t happen in a vacuum.

[/quote]

Afx: Two things. First, with a little bit of research on the shooter, you’ll find that he was obsessed with Gifford as far back as 2007, and that his motivation does appear to be personal, not political (a la Hinckley shooting Reagan for his inamorata, Jodie Foster).

Second, it is not a false equivalency to compare Left to Right on this. No, I’m not condoning Beck or Limbaugh, because I do think they’re assholes and contribute nothing to the debate. But, for every Beck or Limbaugh, I can offer a Dylan Ratigan, or a Mike Malloy, or even a Bill Maher. And their speech is just as virulent and violent and they agitate and advocate death and violence with equal ferocity. Think about Ward Churchill’s comments following 9/11 (the “little Eichmanns” who perished in the Twin Towers). Or Nina Totenberg, or Susan Sontag, or Julianne Malveaux, who suggested, without a trace of irony or humor, that Clarence Thomas’s wife feed him plenty of eggs and butter, so he’d die early “like many black men do” (her words, not mine).

I’m sorry but there is an established culture on both sides, Left and Right, that espouses violence as an answer and literally treats its opponents as targets. The Left does it with a little more panache and brio (being the cultural elite and all), but its there and you don’t have to look far to find it.[/quote]

Do you have hard evidence of Beck or Limbaugh inciting violence? I have never heard any, in fact, Beck’s talk show today was the exact opposite. I would ask the same thing of the people on the left you mention but I don’t listen to them (I don’t listen to Limbaugh either).

Seems he is quite anti-violence.

http://www.glennbeck.com/2011/01/10/glenns-letter-to-the-american-people-politicians-and-media/

[Djshakes]

[quote=ILoveRegulation]I wonder if anyone on the right will condemn Sarah Palin for her ‘crosshairs’ map or her ‘lock and load’ rhetoric? I’m not holding my breath.[/quote]

This is a cross hair for your information. The cross doesn’t expand past circle in a scope now does it.

http://www.noisyroom.net/blog/surveyor2.png

This is a surveyor mark

http://www.noisyroom.net/blog/surveyor1.jpg

[Djshakes]

[quote=ILoveRegulation]I wonder if anyone on the right will condemn Sarah Palin for her ‘crosshairs’ map or her ‘lock and load’ rhetoric? I’m not holding my breath.[/quote]

This is a cross hair for your information. The cross doesn’t expand past circle in a scope now does it.

http://www.noisyroom.net/blog/surveyor2.png

This is a surveyor mark

http://www.noisyroom.net/blog/surveyor1.jpg

[Djshakes]

[quote=ILoveRegulation]I wonder if anyone on the right will condemn Sarah Palin for her ‘crosshairs’ map or her ‘lock and load’ rhetoric? I’m not holding my breath.[/quote]

This is a cross hair for your information. The cross doesn’t expand past circle in a scope now does it.

http://www.noisyroom.net/blog/surveyor2.png

This is a surveyor mark

http://www.noisyroom.net/blog/surveyor1.jpg

[Djshakes]

[quote=ILoveRegulation]I wonder if anyone on the right will condemn Sarah Palin for her ‘crosshairs’ map or her ‘lock and load’ rhetoric? I’m not holding my breath.[/quote]

This is a cross hair for your information. The cross doesn’t expand past circle in a scope now does it.

http://www.noisyroom.net/blog/surveyor2.png

This is a surveyor mark

http://www.noisyroom.net/blog/surveyor1.jpg

[Djshakes]

[quote=ILoveRegulation]I wonder if anyone on the right will condemn Sarah Palin for her ‘crosshairs’ map or her ‘lock and load’ rhetoric? I’m not holding my breath.[/quote]

This is a cross hair for your information. The cross doesn’t expand past circle in a scope now does it.

http://www.noisyroom.net/blog/surveyor2.png

This is a surveyor mark

http://www.noisyroom.net/blog/surveyor1.jpg

[Arraya]

[quote=Djshakes][quote=Arraya]Humane war, now that is funny. Maybe we should “just take the gloves off” instead of listening to whinny liberals and really win this thing, eh..

We are a very violent culture. which is not surprising with the radical, paranoid and violent ruling class. These people use the U.S. military (which they and the children rarely serve in) around the globe with disasterous results, force radical demographic and social change at home . The have us wired up to monitor our mail, phone calls, emails, financial transactions, ect..

They go around, like paranoid schizophrenics hearing voices in their heads, from country to country bombing, killing and displacing millions looking for a mysterious organization that hates us for our freedoms.

Our government is sick and we are all mentally ill.[/quote]

History didn’t start when America was formed. What you described has been going on since the beginning of mankind. So, while we may be mentally ill, so is the rest of mankind according to your definition.[/quote]

Well, I’d trace the current madness back to the mid neolithic period. Hierarchical structure always need violence to uphold and state sanctioned violence becomes accepted. But, that is another discussion. I agree, we are all mentally ill to one extent or another and the cultural pathology seems to have gone malignant. Part of the mental illness is misplacing cause and effect. We seem to spend all our time and resources fixing, diagnosing and complaining about symptoms.

[Arraya]

[quote=Djshakes][quote=Arraya]Humane war, now that is funny. Maybe we should “just take the gloves off” instead of listening to whinny liberals and really win this thing, eh..

We are a very violent culture. which is not surprising with the radical, paranoid and violent ruling class. These people use the U.S. military (which they and the children rarely serve in) around the globe with disasterous results, force radical demographic and social change at home . The have us wired up to monitor our mail, phone calls, emails, financial transactions, ect..

They go around, like paranoid schizophrenics hearing voices in their heads, from country to country bombing, killing and displacing millions looking for a mysterious organization that hates us for our freedoms.

Our government is sick and we are all mentally ill.[/quote]

History didn’t start when America was formed. What you described has been going on since the beginning of mankind. So, while we may be mentally ill, so is the rest of mankind according to your definition.[/quote]

Well, I’d trace the current madness back to the mid neolithic period. Hierarchical structure always need violence to uphold and state sanctioned violence becomes accepted. But, that is another discussion. I agree, we are all mentally ill to one extent or another and the cultural pathology seems to have gone malignant. Part of the mental illness is misplacing cause and effect. We seem to spend all our time and resources fixing, diagnosing and complaining about symptoms.

[Arraya]

[quote=Djshakes][quote=Arraya]Humane war, now that is funny. Maybe we should “just take the gloves off” instead of listening to whinny liberals and really win this thing, eh..

We are a very violent culture. which is not surprising with the radical, paranoid and violent ruling class. These people use the U.S. military (which they and the children rarely serve in) around the globe with disasterous results, force radical demographic and social change at home . The have us wired up to monitor our mail, phone calls, emails, financial transactions, ect..

They go around, like paranoid schizophrenics hearing voices in their heads, from country to country bombing, killing and displacing millions looking for a mysterious organization that hates us for our freedoms.

Our government is sick and we are all mentally ill.[/quote]

History didn’t start when America was formed. What you described has been going on since the beginning of mankind. So, while we may be mentally ill, so is the rest of mankind according to your definition.[/quote]

Well, I’d trace the current madness back to the mid neolithic period. Hierarchical structure always need violence to uphold and state sanctioned violence becomes accepted. But, that is another discussion. I agree, we are all mentally ill to one extent or another and the cultural pathology seems to have gone malignant. Part of the mental illness is misplacing cause and effect. We seem to spend all our time and resources fixing, diagnosing and complaining about symptoms.

[Arraya]

[quote=Djshakes][quote=Arraya]Humane war, now that is funny. Maybe we should “just take the gloves off” instead of listening to whinny liberals and really win this thing, eh..

We are a very violent culture. which is not surprising with the radical, paranoid and violent ruling class. These people use the U.S. military (which they and the children rarely serve in) around the globe with disasterous results, force radical demographic and social change at home . The have us wired up to monitor our mail, phone calls, emails, financial transactions, ect..

They go around, like paranoid schizophrenics hearing voices in their heads, from country to country bombing, killing and displacing millions looking for a mysterious organization that hates us for our freedoms.

Our government is sick and we are all mentally ill.[/quote]

History didn’t start when America was formed. What you described has been going on since the beginning of mankind. So, while we may be mentally ill, so is the rest of mankind according to your definition.[/quote]

Well, I’d trace the current madness back to the mid neolithic period. Hierarchical structure always need violence to uphold and state sanctioned violence becomes accepted. But, that is another discussion. I agree, we are all mentally ill to one extent or another and the cultural pathology seems to have gone malignant. Part of the mental illness is misplacing cause and effect. We seem to spend all our time and resources fixing, diagnosing and complaining about symptoms.

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