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swave.
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November 11, 2011 at 1:12 PM #732743November 11, 2011 at 1:21 PM #732747
markmax33
Guest[quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=pri_dk][quote=markmax33][…]Ron Paul described the difference between Crony Capitalism and real capitalism. I never thought of it this way but he was dead on.[…][/quote]
So what did you think the difference between crony capitalism and real capitalism was before Ron Paul enlightened you?
BTW, the government was very much involved in the development of internet.
Did Steve Jobs benefit from the internet?
Al Gore even had something to do with it: http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp
Did I prove all your points?[/quote]
Pri: It’s no secret that Uncle Sugar plowed billions into the tech sector during the Cold War, and continues to do so. Many of the so-called “entrepeneurs” were in fact the recipients of federal funds from the Department of Defense and DARPA.
As you point out, the internet was originally ARPANET (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPANET) and part of DARPA’s program to decentralize US communications to withstand a Soviet first strike.
As far as “crony capitalism” goes: Its been with us since the beginning. Not to condone it, but facts are facts.[/quote]
There are sectors built from the ground up, they are fewer and further between, but it does happen. I would be curious how many federal contracts Jobs won over the years, but they are in a bunch of schools, so I guess that counts sort of.
November 11, 2011 at 1:33 PM #732749Guest[quote=DomoArigato][quote=markmax33]
I thought one of the most educational points of the night was when Ron Paul described the difference between Crony Capitalism and real capitalism. I never thought of it this way but he was dead on. Companies that get rich from GOV bailouts, fed bailouts, sweetheart GOV contracts, etc are crony capitalism. Real capitalism is when Steve Jobs creates something unique for the market place and they love it. Real capitalism is when Starbucks started up from nothing, etc.[/quote]What do you call it when Rand Paul stands in the way of regulation of the oil and gas industry that would save people’s lives?
A senator who opposes federal regulation on philosophical grounds is single-handedly blocking legislation that would strengthen safety rules for oil and gas pipelines, a bill that even the pipeline industry and companies in his own state support. Republican Sen. Rand Paul’s opposition to the bill hasn’t wavered even after a gas pipeline rupture last week shook people awake in three counties in his home state of Kentucky.
…
A deadly gas pipeline explosion near San Francisco last year — along with other recent gas explosions and oil pipeline spills — has created consensus in Congress, as well as in the industry, that there are gaps in federal safety regulations.
http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2011/09/sen_rand_paul_blocks_pipeline.html
If only the world was as simple as Libertarian pea-brains think it to be.[/quote]
Are we really brainwashed enough to think that the Federal GOV needs to pass a bill? Why can’t the industry make the appropriate corrections? They do in my industry and it’s just as complicated. Why is it the Federal GOV’s job? It’s crazy to think that these politicians get bills put in front of them, don’t get to read them and then are forced to pass the “safe american pipeline act” just because it sounds good. They don’t even get to hear industry witnesses on many of these bills. Are you that crazy to just accept a retarded bill?
November 11, 2011 at 1:38 PM #732750Guest[quote=pri_dk]The free market will solve the problem.
After the explosions, the remaining homeowners – the ones who are not dead – will just switch to another gas company.[/quote]
Why don’t we pass a law that it is illegal to walk across the street because people get hit. Why don’t we pass a law that it’s illegal to fly a plane because they crash occasionally? Why don’t we pass a law it’s illegal to surf because there are shark attacks? Why does one stupid pipeline explosion over hundreds of thousands of miles of piping in this country, if not MILLIONS of miles, make you think congress has to pass a regulation? It’s a CRAZY idea!
November 11, 2011 at 1:47 PM #732753scaredyclassic
Participantit is illegal to jaywalk.
it is illegal to fly a plane without appropriate licensing.
it is illegal to surf when you are ordered oout of the water.
it is ilelgal to build your own nuclear plant.
you can do things cheaper and pass on the risks to innocent bystanders and declare bankruptcy and say, oopsie.
that’s why business cannot always be entrusted to take the appropriate amount of care.
i don’t trust congress.
but i definitely don’t trust the guy who can make a couple extra mill putting me in harm’s way.
November 11, 2011 at 2:00 PM #732755Jazzman
Participant[quote=markmax33][quote=DomoArigato][quote=svelte]Maybe I’m just getting too used to well polished Hollywood type politicians, but I wasn’t overly impressed with any of the candidates in the debate last night. The parts I saw anyway.
And they all certainly have their vulnerabilities. It is going to be a fairly interesting Presidential race, methinks.[/quote]
As a Liberal, I like that Perry doubled the size of the Texas state debt and grew the public sector at twice the rate of the private sector during his term. Perry also raised taxes during his term as Governor of Texas. I think we need something similar at the Federal level to get us out of this economic jam.
Perry is looking better than Obama at this point.[/quote]
I thought one of the most educational points of the night was when Ron Paul described the difference between Crony Capitalism and real capitalism. I never thought of it this way but he was dead on. Companies that get rich from GOV bailouts, fed bailouts, sweetheart GOV contracts, etc are crony capitalism. Real capitalism is when Steve Jobs creates something unique for the market place and they love it. Real capitalism is when Starbucks started up from nothing, etc.[/quote]
Never quite sure where Paul sits. He’s either a democrat that thinks victory is a wolf in a sheepskin, or idealism is somehow virtuous.
November 11, 2011 at 2:01 PM #732756briansd1
GuestThis is an interesting story about a plant in NY that’s polluting the air and made the owner rich.
State and Federal regulators raided the plant, but it’s still operating and polluting.
Would you want such a plant in your neighborhood and then leave it to the plant owner to self-regulate?
http://www.npr.org/2011/11/10/142189390/tonawanda-provides-lessons-for-fighting-toxic-air
November 11, 2011 at 2:32 PM #732758Allan from Fallbrook
Participant[quote=briansd1]This is an interesting story about a plant in NY that’s polluting the air and made the owner rich.
State and Federal regulators raided the plant, but it’s still operating and polluting.
Would you want such a plant in your neighborhood and then leave it to the plant owner to self-regulate?
Brian: You also (unintentionally) made another point as well: The gubment, for all its good intent, can also fall far short when it comes to proper regulation and oversight. And I’m not talking about the Crash of 2008, either, although that’s one of the more egregious examples.
Look at the various energy sectors and you’re likely to find some all-too-cozy relationships between the various regulatory agencies and the very people that they’re supposed to oversee. Massey Energy (coal mining) springs immediately to mind, as did the fiasco that led to the BP Deepwater Horizon blowout.
It isn’t always the need for additional regulation, it can also be the need to properly enforce the regulations we already have.
November 11, 2011 at 2:37 PM #732759Guest[quote=briansd1]This is an interesting story about a plant in NY that’s polluting the air and made the owner rich.
State and Federal regulators raided the plant, but it’s still operating and polluting.
Would you want such a plant in your neighborhood and then leave it to the plant owner to self-regulate?
NO! If they damage my water or my air they get sued because we have strong property rights laws.
November 11, 2011 at 2:39 PM #732760Guest[quote=walterwhite]it is illegal to jaywalk.
it is illegal to fly a plane without appropriate licensing.
it is illegal to surf when you are ordered oout of the water.
it is ilelgal to build your own nuclear plant.
you can do things cheaper and pass on the risks to innocent bystanders and declare bankruptcy and say, oopsie.
that’s why business cannot always be entrusted to take the appropriate amount of care.
i don’t trust congress.
but i definitely don’t trust the guy who can make a couple extra mill putting me in harm’s way.[/quote]
EXACTLY!!!!
Those are all state and city regulations! You proved my point. We can provide for these things on a local level. We do not need the GOV managing our lives!
November 11, 2011 at 2:40 PM #732761Guest[quote=markmax33][quote=walterwhite]it is illegal to jaywalk.
it is illegal to fly a plane without appropriate licensing.
it is illegal to surf when you are ordered oout of the water.
it is ilelgal to build your own nuclear plant.
you can do things cheaper and pass on the risks to innocent bystanders and declare bankruptcy and say, oopsie.
that’s why business cannot always be entrusted to take the appropriate amount of care.
i don’t trust congress.
but i definitely don’t trust the guy who can make a couple extra mill putting me in harm’s way.[/quote]
EXACTLY!!!!
Those are all state and city regulations, except for nuclear which I didn’t list. You proved my point. We can provide for these things on a local level. We do not need the GOV managing our lives![/quote]
November 11, 2011 at 3:13 PM #732764Anonymous
Guest[quote=markmax33]NO! If they damage my water or my air they get sued because we have strong property rights laws.[/quote]
YOUR air?
You own air?
Do you walk around with a tank and mask, breathing your own air?
Or do you hold some sort of deed to a certain volume of the atmosphere?
If someone farts in your air, have they violated your property rights?
I heard somewhere that there’s a new rule, that you have to study economics for 20 years to vote for president, or something like that. If you want to get there, I suggest you start with some Econ 101:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good
Yeah I know, it all proves your points.
BTW: The whole “GOV” thing is kinda lame.
November 12, 2011 at 4:14 PM #732800swave
Participant[quote=markmax33]
I thought one of the most educational points of the night was when Ron Paul described the difference between Crony Capitalism and real capitalism. I never thought of it this way but he was dead on. Companies that get rich from GOV bailouts, fed bailouts, sweetheart GOV contracts, etc are crony capitalism. Real capitalism is when Steve Jobs creates something unique for the market place and they love it. Real capitalism is when Starbucks started up from nothing, etc.[/quote]
Someone who made money by making the world a better place (cure cancer…) should definitely be treated differently from someone who made their money by cheating others or by crony capitalism.
The difficult question is (and there is always a difficult question) how is it decided which category someone is in. Or who gets to decide. There is always a huge grey area. Probably everyone is somewhere in the grey area. Just some are darker grey than others. Except for some in the financial industry. Many of them made all of their money without making society any better off.
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