OT: religion

[flyer]

The dying part is assured for everyone. After that, we’ll all just have to wait and see what the truth really is. Fortunately, we’ll all find out someday.

[scaredyclassic]

That thought assumes there is something after, some part of us that can discern what is happening after death. It is a subtle way of saying you expect there to be life after death since it assumes the ability to perceive it. Better to just say it than be coy. More precisely we will only know if there is life after death if in fact there is life after death.

That is false, and so we will never know. We will never have confirmatory info. We will be dead. We will have no perception, no knowledge or sense of it. We will know even less after death about what is happening after death than we do now.

Sorry.

We will just be a cold rotten piece of meat for a while as others bury us. Then bone. Finally, dust.

Nothing more.

[scaredyclassic]

I guess this is why I don’t get invited to a lot of parties.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=Blogstar]Pantheism and pantheists are interesting, Allan. Glad you brought that up.[/quote]

Russ: No worries, and I agree. Kaku is among a group of very interesting thinkers in Quantum Mechanics that can understand that this is more than just science, and also more than just religion, either.

Don’t know if you’ve ever read Campbell on mythology, but there are interesting parallels and connections. Throw in some psychedelics and it’s a party!

[Doofrat]

[quote=scaredyclassic]All of the Mormons I’ve worked with universally are super nice people, good humored, sharp critical thinkers. I just can’t get how they can read that book and not say “hmmmmmm. No”.[/quote]

Brainwashed at an early age, combined with something wired into us that, if tickled, results in us believing some wacky tale. Same as any religion though, they’re ALL the same – fill in the unknown with some crap and people’s brains just turn to mush and all reason goes out the window.

I always find it funny when religious people bash on Mormons, Catholics, Muslims, Scientologists, etc. for how crazy their story is while they themselves choose to believe some bizarre tale spun by a science fiction writer, a con man from Chicago, or some asshole a few thousand years ago claiming he is the son of God himself.

You could have a religion where a clown on a unicycle the size of the universe rode around in the Heavens and when he tooted his horn the unicycle turned into the universe and we were all created. You’d have true believers with genius level IQs explaining why you can’t disprove his Clown God religion. Meanwhile, someone else would be saying that, no, it’s a bear that eats honey and farts souls that’s what really created everything, you’re crazy to think that it’s a clown!

It’s bizarre to me to live in this world where intelligent people are talking about these stories like they are true. It’s almost like people talking about which television show they like better, but the crazy thing is they actually believe the show is real. And then not believing in one of these crazy stories is considered weird and in some areas/times, grounds for ostracization, discrimination, or even death. It’s bizarre…truly bizarre.

[zk]

[quote=doofrat]

I always find it funny when religious people bash on Mormons, Catholics, Muslims, Scientologists, etc. for how crazy their story is while they themselves choose to believe some bizarre tale spun by a science fiction writer, a con man from Chicago, or some asshole a few thousand years ago claiming he is the son of God himself.

[/quote]

I remember when the 39 heaven’s gate cult members killed themselves in order to catch a ride on the spaceship that was hidden behind a passing comet. So many people were saying, “how could they actually believe that.” I remember thinking (but not saying out loud) what you’re saying. Funny that all these religious are people shaking their heads in disgust at those people for believing that story, when the story they believe is at least as ludicrous.

Most of my friends, and most of the people I know, are christians, and many of the rest are some other religion. I don’t have the social skills to bring this kind of thing up to my religious friends and not sound like an asshole. So I don’t say anything. (In fact, a lot of them probably don’t even know that I’m essentially an atheist.) It’s easy here on a blog, to discuss these things, but not so much in real life. For me, anyway.

Any of you non-believers bring this stuff up in real-life conversations with religious friends?

[flyer]

I find it amusing that “nonbelievers” think their opinion is more valid than “believers.”

A “nonbeliever” stating that something doesn’t exist is nothing more than another “opinion.”–nothing more, and, believe me, it means absolutely nothing to a “believer.” I’m certain a “nonbeliever” feels likewise–and neither cares what the other thinks.

So, in the meantime, until the truth becomes evident, or never does, we can spend our time making our millions and enjoying our lives with family and friends. At least, that’s what I’m doing.
Cheers!

[CA renter]

[quote=scaredyclassic]Everybody wants to go to heaven but no n one wants to die.[/quote]

First off, I think you’re terribly funny, scaredy, so tell your wife that she is wrong on that count. 🙂 Your joining us again after your hiatus the other year (last year?) made me exceedingly happy.

Anyway, let me tell you about the death of my parents. Both died from cancer less than three weeks apart, and I got to watch both of them die. My father was either an atheist or agnostic — he wasn’t one to talk about these things with others. My mother, OTOH, was a “born-again” fundamentalist Christian. When my father died, it was clear that he was absolutely terrified, even though he had lived for many years with cancer, so had a lot of time to mentally prepare. It was very difficult to watch. My mother’s last words just before she slipped into the pre-death comatose state was: “I know this sounds weird, but I’m actually excited…this is fun…I finally get to see what’s on the other side.” She was not afraid of death, and her passing was much more peaceful.

I agree that some of the religious stories are pretty silly, but I think it’s because people are trying to make “worldly” sense out of something that is completely beyond their mental and emotional grasp.

Ultimately, none of us knows what happens when we die, but what we DO know is that we will all die. IMO, it’s better to believe and be wrong than to disbelieve and be wrong. One way makes death and dying a bit easier to deal with, while the other is rather terrifying. It’s just a matter of whether or not one is willing to pay for that “afterlife insurance.” Maybe you won’t need it, but it’s sure nice to have if you do end up needing it.

[CA renter]

scaredy, what makes you so confident in your conviction that nothing else happens after we die? Just curious.

[moneymaker]

It would only take one of those huge frozen (think carbon dioxide) asteroids to hit us and flood the planet temporarily with CO2 to snuff out most life. It would only take 5 minutes to do this, much more effective than water with an easier clean up afterwords.

[moneymaker]

Remember having this conversation with my dad before he died and we each made a pact to come back and tell the other what is on the other side of death if anything. Well he died in 1997 and several years later I was in my living room and I was amazed to see for a brief moment what I can only describe as an etheral burning bush about 3 feet off the floor. It was there maybe a second or two and then gone, no voices like in the bible. I’m sure I was not hallucinating. Even with this possible proof I still do not know if it was “the burning bush” or the fires of hell, knowing my dad it could have gone either way. My conclusion to all this is we don’t know everything that is going on out there.

[zk]

[quote=flyer]I find it amusing that “nonbelievers” think their opinion is more valid than “believers.”

[/quote]

Not more valid necessarily, but definitely more rational.

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=flyer]I find it amusing that “nonbelievers” think their opinion is more valid than “believers.”

A “nonbeliever” stating that something doesn’t exist is nothing more than another “opinion.”–nothing more, and, believe me, it means absolutely nothing to a “believer.” I’m certain a “nonbeliever” feels likewise–and neither cares what the other thinks.

So, in the meantime, until the truth becomes evident, or never does, we can spend our time making our millions and enjoying our lives with family and friends. At least, that’s what I’m doing.
Cheers![/quote]

i dont think my belief is more valid than yours. just more firmly held, as it’s not a “belief”. I KNOW for certain that wearing certain underwear will not get you into heaven, as some mormons hold, and I KNOW with the same degree of certainty that G-ds son was not nailed to a cross to die for our sins, and I KNOW that G-d does not care about us. I am not saying that you may not know, differently, but I think you just kind of hope, or try to believe, or have faith, or are wishing (as all humans must do in these types of systems of religion). That’s fine, not less valid, just less firm. It’s a “faith”…something which cannot be known…just sort of held on to, as firmly as one possibly can, given the absurdity of life and the explanation for all that absurdity given by that particular religion’s explanation of it all…

I will not yield on this point. I will hold it until my dying breath.

I also KNOW (not believe), KNOW that all of those beliefs, the cross, the underwear, the praying, all have important social functions, and produce certain effects in people they find beneficial. For these reasons, they are worthy of respect…not because they are true in the sense of having any independent existence aside from the meaning they have in a social structure…but because they somehow give meaning to people in a world where our full time job is searching for meaning.

I would never say, hey wait till it’s all over, then you’ll see I’m right…because I know that’s an absurd statement (from my point of view). from the point of view of a faith-adherent, who in the end is someone who has taken up pascals wager, with varying degrees of certainty, it does make sense to say it will all become clear later. and it’s valid. just way less firm…Firm is “I know now.”

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=CA renter]scaredy, what makes you so confident in your conviction that nothing else happens after we die? Just curious.[/quote]

same reason you are in your heart certain (as one can be certain) that the creator is not a farting bear on a unicycle.

[zk]

[quote=flyer]I find it amusing that “nonbelievers” think their opinion is more valid than “believers.”

Cheers![/quote]
If Russia nuked Ukraine tomorrow and the stock market crashed, and I was certain that the stock market crash was because my brother telepathically told everyone to sell, would you think my certainty that my brother caused the crash was less valid than your opinion that the nuclear war caused it?

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