OT: Release of the DOJ torture transcripts.

[Aecetia]

“Ordinary people, simply doing their jobs, and without any particular hostility on their part, can become agents in a terrible destructive process. Moreover, even when the destructive effects of their work become patently clear, and they are asked to carry out actions incompatible with fundamental standards of morality, relatively few people have the resources needed to resist authority.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

[KSMountain]

[quote=gandalf]1. It was a systematically organized program authorized at the highest levels of OUR government, IN OUR NAMES, and it was wrong.
[/quote]
It was applied to 3 people – if that makes a program it was a pretty small program. Again I completely disagree with you and feel it was their actual *job* to try to get the maximum info from those 3 guys. Let’s see, there were 20 conspirators for 9/11 in the U.S. (that we know of). How many more? We need to know. What do you suggest: say “pretty please”?

[quote=gandalf]2. Torture is not effective from an interrogation perspective. False confessions and bad leads. The ticking bomb scenario assumes you know what they know and you don’t.
[/quote]
I’m not an expert on the efficacy of torture. But I know we *knew* those 3 guys knew a LOT. Think of their positions in the organization.

[quote=gandalf]4. This torture issue has been a recruitment poster for anti-American extremists. Whatever dubiously asserted tactical gains were acquired were vastly offset by the damage done to our overall strategic position.
[/quote]
Uh, proof please? Got some data? Let’s see, 9/11 happened before any torture. The Bali bombing, Cole bombing. World Trade Center bombing #1 – all before. The Spain bombing and London bombing and Shoe bomber may have happened before too. Get it? Those things were *already* happening. Going further: do you think the Taliban and Pakistan NWFP really care about what’s going on in Cuba? I seriously doubt it. They want to shape their region so that women don’t go to school, or drive, or talk to men not their husband and men don’t shave their beards, and no one listens to any music. Seriously. They are plenty self-motivated without any recruitment posters. I call B.S. on that. Also your second part where you say we got “dubious tactical gains”, again, proof please? Neither of us know, but you may recall we broke up a cell in Portland, we didn’t have the 10 airliners go down, we broke up the plot on all the tunnels in N.Y. – and those are just the things we were told about.

[KSMountain]

[quote=gandalf]1. It was a systematically organized program authorized at the highest levels of OUR government, IN OUR NAMES, and it was wrong.
[/quote]
It was applied to 3 people – if that makes a program it was a pretty small program. Again I completely disagree with you and feel it was their actual *job* to try to get the maximum info from those 3 guys. Let’s see, there were 20 conspirators for 9/11 in the U.S. (that we know of). How many more? We need to know. What do you suggest: say “pretty please”?

[quote=gandalf]2. Torture is not effective from an interrogation perspective. False confessions and bad leads. The ticking bomb scenario assumes you know what they know and you don’t.
[/quote]
I’m not an expert on the efficacy of torture. But I know we *knew* those 3 guys knew a LOT. Think of their positions in the organization.

[quote=gandalf]4. This torture issue has been a recruitment poster for anti-American extremists. Whatever dubiously asserted tactical gains were acquired were vastly offset by the damage done to our overall strategic position.
[/quote]
Uh, proof please? Got some data? Let’s see, 9/11 happened before any torture. The Bali bombing, Cole bombing. World Trade Center bombing #1 – all before. The Spain bombing and London bombing and Shoe bomber may have happened before too. Get it? Those things were *already* happening. Going further: do you think the Taliban and Pakistan NWFP really care about what’s going on in Cuba? I seriously doubt it. They want to shape their region so that women don’t go to school, or drive, or talk to men not their husband and men don’t shave their beards, and no one listens to any music. Seriously. They are plenty self-motivated without any recruitment posters. I call B.S. on that. Also your second part where you say we got “dubious tactical gains”, again, proof please? Neither of us know, but you may recall we broke up a cell in Portland, we didn’t have the 10 airliners go down, we broke up the plot on all the tunnels in N.Y. – and those are just the things we were told about.

[KSMountain]

[quote=gandalf]1. It was a systematically organized program authorized at the highest levels of OUR government, IN OUR NAMES, and it was wrong.
[/quote]
It was applied to 3 people – if that makes a program it was a pretty small program. Again I completely disagree with you and feel it was their actual *job* to try to get the maximum info from those 3 guys. Let’s see, there were 20 conspirators for 9/11 in the U.S. (that we know of). How many more? We need to know. What do you suggest: say “pretty please”?

[quote=gandalf]2. Torture is not effective from an interrogation perspective. False confessions and bad leads. The ticking bomb scenario assumes you know what they know and you don’t.
[/quote]
I’m not an expert on the efficacy of torture. But I know we *knew* those 3 guys knew a LOT. Think of their positions in the organization.

[quote=gandalf]4. This torture issue has been a recruitment poster for anti-American extremists. Whatever dubiously asserted tactical gains were acquired were vastly offset by the damage done to our overall strategic position.
[/quote]
Uh, proof please? Got some data? Let’s see, 9/11 happened before any torture. The Bali bombing, Cole bombing. World Trade Center bombing #1 – all before. The Spain bombing and London bombing and Shoe bomber may have happened before too. Get it? Those things were *already* happening. Going further: do you think the Taliban and Pakistan NWFP really care about what’s going on in Cuba? I seriously doubt it. They want to shape their region so that women don’t go to school, or drive, or talk to men not their husband and men don’t shave their beards, and no one listens to any music. Seriously. They are plenty self-motivated without any recruitment posters. I call B.S. on that. Also your second part where you say we got “dubious tactical gains”, again, proof please? Neither of us know, but you may recall we broke up a cell in Portland, we didn’t have the 10 airliners go down, we broke up the plot on all the tunnels in N.Y. – and those are just the things we were told about.

[KSMountain]

[quote=gandalf]1. It was a systematically organized program authorized at the highest levels of OUR government, IN OUR NAMES, and it was wrong.
[/quote]
It was applied to 3 people – if that makes a program it was a pretty small program. Again I completely disagree with you and feel it was their actual *job* to try to get the maximum info from those 3 guys. Let’s see, there were 20 conspirators for 9/11 in the U.S. (that we know of). How many more? We need to know. What do you suggest: say “pretty please”?

[quote=gandalf]2. Torture is not effective from an interrogation perspective. False confessions and bad leads. The ticking bomb scenario assumes you know what they know and you don’t.
[/quote]
I’m not an expert on the efficacy of torture. But I know we *knew* those 3 guys knew a LOT. Think of their positions in the organization.

[quote=gandalf]4. This torture issue has been a recruitment poster for anti-American extremists. Whatever dubiously asserted tactical gains were acquired were vastly offset by the damage done to our overall strategic position.
[/quote]
Uh, proof please? Got some data? Let’s see, 9/11 happened before any torture. The Bali bombing, Cole bombing. World Trade Center bombing #1 – all before. The Spain bombing and London bombing and Shoe bomber may have happened before too. Get it? Those things were *already* happening. Going further: do you think the Taliban and Pakistan NWFP really care about what’s going on in Cuba? I seriously doubt it. They want to shape their region so that women don’t go to school, or drive, or talk to men not their husband and men don’t shave their beards, and no one listens to any music. Seriously. They are plenty self-motivated without any recruitment posters. I call B.S. on that. Also your second part where you say we got “dubious tactical gains”, again, proof please? Neither of us know, but you may recall we broke up a cell in Portland, we didn’t have the 10 airliners go down, we broke up the plot on all the tunnels in N.Y. – and those are just the things we were told about.

[KSMountain]

[quote=gandalf]1. It was a systematically organized program authorized at the highest levels of OUR government, IN OUR NAMES, and it was wrong.
[/quote]
It was applied to 3 people – if that makes a program it was a pretty small program. Again I completely disagree with you and feel it was their actual *job* to try to get the maximum info from those 3 guys. Let’s see, there were 20 conspirators for 9/11 in the U.S. (that we know of). How many more? We need to know. What do you suggest: say “pretty please”?

[quote=gandalf]2. Torture is not effective from an interrogation perspective. False confessions and bad leads. The ticking bomb scenario assumes you know what they know and you don’t.
[/quote]
I’m not an expert on the efficacy of torture. But I know we *knew* those 3 guys knew a LOT. Think of their positions in the organization.

[quote=gandalf]4. This torture issue has been a recruitment poster for anti-American extremists. Whatever dubiously asserted tactical gains were acquired were vastly offset by the damage done to our overall strategic position.
[/quote]
Uh, proof please? Got some data? Let’s see, 9/11 happened before any torture. The Bali bombing, Cole bombing. World Trade Center bombing #1 – all before. The Spain bombing and London bombing and Shoe bomber may have happened before too. Get it? Those things were *already* happening. Going further: do you think the Taliban and Pakistan NWFP really care about what’s going on in Cuba? I seriously doubt it. They want to shape their region so that women don’t go to school, or drive, or talk to men not their husband and men don’t shave their beards, and no one listens to any music. Seriously. They are plenty self-motivated without any recruitment posters. I call B.S. on that. Also your second part where you say we got “dubious tactical gains”, again, proof please? Neither of us know, but you may recall we broke up a cell in Portland, we didn’t have the 10 airliners go down, we broke up the plot on all the tunnels in N.Y. – and those are just the things we were told about.

[Parabolica]

KSM-
Can you provide a citation to your assertion that only 3 prisoners were tortured? As a followup, I’m curious about where you usually get your sources of information, if you don’t mind telling me. Nothing that I’m seeing in print, online, or television media lines up with your views about the number of people tortured, or the effficacy of torture, and I’d like to know how you come by your ideas.

I believe that reports by the Red Cross, the Pentagon, and a Congressional committee indicate that torture was employed systematically across military prisons and secret prisons. Also, that this torture was approved at the highest levels of the Bush administration. Just yesterday, documents were produced that Cheney and Condi approved torture. “Pretty small program”?

I’ve got to run now, but here is a quick cite to the Red Cross reference.

The Red Cross report says that torture, including waterboarding, was practiced systematically in our secret prisons.

“It discusses elements of the CIA rendition and detention program, in which prisoners were transported – shackled and blindfolded – to secret “black sites” where they faced interrogation using what President Bush, in a September 6, 2006 speech publicly revealing the program, termed “an alternative set of procedures.”

These techniques, the Red Cross states, included suffocation by water, beatings, confinement in a box, sleep deprivation, forced nudity, exposure to cold temperatures or cold water, starvation and prolonged stress positions.

According to the report’s authors, “in many cases, the ill-treatment to which they were subjected while held in the CIA program … constituted torture.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/16/terror/main4869240.shtml

[Parabolica]

KSM-
Can you provide a citation to your assertion that only 3 prisoners were tortured? As a followup, I’m curious about where you usually get your sources of information, if you don’t mind telling me. Nothing that I’m seeing in print, online, or television media lines up with your views about the number of people tortured, or the effficacy of torture, and I’d like to know how you come by your ideas.

I believe that reports by the Red Cross, the Pentagon, and a Congressional committee indicate that torture was employed systematically across military prisons and secret prisons. Also, that this torture was approved at the highest levels of the Bush administration. Just yesterday, documents were produced that Cheney and Condi approved torture. “Pretty small program”?

I’ve got to run now, but here is a quick cite to the Red Cross reference.

The Red Cross report says that torture, including waterboarding, was practiced systematically in our secret prisons.

“It discusses elements of the CIA rendition and detention program, in which prisoners were transported – shackled and blindfolded – to secret “black sites” where they faced interrogation using what President Bush, in a September 6, 2006 speech publicly revealing the program, termed “an alternative set of procedures.”

These techniques, the Red Cross states, included suffocation by water, beatings, confinement in a box, sleep deprivation, forced nudity, exposure to cold temperatures or cold water, starvation and prolonged stress positions.

According to the report’s authors, “in many cases, the ill-treatment to which they were subjected while held in the CIA program … constituted torture.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/16/terror/main4869240.shtml

[Parabolica]

KSM-
Can you provide a citation to your assertion that only 3 prisoners were tortured? As a followup, I’m curious about where you usually get your sources of information, if you don’t mind telling me. Nothing that I’m seeing in print, online, or television media lines up with your views about the number of people tortured, or the effficacy of torture, and I’d like to know how you come by your ideas.

I believe that reports by the Red Cross, the Pentagon, and a Congressional committee indicate that torture was employed systematically across military prisons and secret prisons. Also, that this torture was approved at the highest levels of the Bush administration. Just yesterday, documents were produced that Cheney and Condi approved torture. “Pretty small program”?

I’ve got to run now, but here is a quick cite to the Red Cross reference.

The Red Cross report says that torture, including waterboarding, was practiced systematically in our secret prisons.

“It discusses elements of the CIA rendition and detention program, in which prisoners were transported – shackled and blindfolded – to secret “black sites” where they faced interrogation using what President Bush, in a September 6, 2006 speech publicly revealing the program, termed “an alternative set of procedures.”

These techniques, the Red Cross states, included suffocation by water, beatings, confinement in a box, sleep deprivation, forced nudity, exposure to cold temperatures or cold water, starvation and prolonged stress positions.

According to the report’s authors, “in many cases, the ill-treatment to which they were subjected while held in the CIA program … constituted torture.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/16/terror/main4869240.shtml

[Parabolica]

KSM-
Can you provide a citation to your assertion that only 3 prisoners were tortured? As a followup, I’m curious about where you usually get your sources of information, if you don’t mind telling me. Nothing that I’m seeing in print, online, or television media lines up with your views about the number of people tortured, or the effficacy of torture, and I’d like to know how you come by your ideas.

I believe that reports by the Red Cross, the Pentagon, and a Congressional committee indicate that torture was employed systematically across military prisons and secret prisons. Also, that this torture was approved at the highest levels of the Bush administration. Just yesterday, documents were produced that Cheney and Condi approved torture. “Pretty small program”?

I’ve got to run now, but here is a quick cite to the Red Cross reference.

The Red Cross report says that torture, including waterboarding, was practiced systematically in our secret prisons.

“It discusses elements of the CIA rendition and detention program, in which prisoners were transported – shackled and blindfolded – to secret “black sites” where they faced interrogation using what President Bush, in a September 6, 2006 speech publicly revealing the program, termed “an alternative set of procedures.”

These techniques, the Red Cross states, included suffocation by water, beatings, confinement in a box, sleep deprivation, forced nudity, exposure to cold temperatures or cold water, starvation and prolonged stress positions.

According to the report’s authors, “in many cases, the ill-treatment to which they were subjected while held in the CIA program … constituted torture.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/16/terror/main4869240.shtml

[Parabolica]

KSM-
Can you provide a citation to your assertion that only 3 prisoners were tortured? As a followup, I’m curious about where you usually get your sources of information, if you don’t mind telling me. Nothing that I’m seeing in print, online, or television media lines up with your views about the number of people tortured, or the effficacy of torture, and I’d like to know how you come by your ideas.

I believe that reports by the Red Cross, the Pentagon, and a Congressional committee indicate that torture was employed systematically across military prisons and secret prisons. Also, that this torture was approved at the highest levels of the Bush administration. Just yesterday, documents were produced that Cheney and Condi approved torture. “Pretty small program”?

I’ve got to run now, but here is a quick cite to the Red Cross reference.

The Red Cross report says that torture, including waterboarding, was practiced systematically in our secret prisons.

“It discusses elements of the CIA rendition and detention program, in which prisoners were transported – shackled and blindfolded – to secret “black sites” where they faced interrogation using what President Bush, in a September 6, 2006 speech publicly revealing the program, termed “an alternative set of procedures.”

These techniques, the Red Cross states, included suffocation by water, beatings, confinement in a box, sleep deprivation, forced nudity, exposure to cold temperatures or cold water, starvation and prolonged stress positions.

According to the report’s authors, “in many cases, the ill-treatment to which they were subjected while held in the CIA program … constituted torture.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/16/terror/main4869240.shtml

[KSMountain]

Here’s one:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/11/exclusive-only-.html

Do you really consider forced nudity to be torture? Really? I bet TG knows people who would volunteer for that. 🙂

[KSMountain]

Here’s one:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/11/exclusive-only-.html

Do you really consider forced nudity to be torture? Really? I bet TG knows people who would volunteer for that. 🙂

[KSMountain]

Here’s one:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/11/exclusive-only-.html

Do you really consider forced nudity to be torture? Really? I bet TG knows people who would volunteer for that. 🙂

[KSMountain]

Here’s one:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/11/exclusive-only-.html

Do you really consider forced nudity to be torture? Really? I bet TG knows people who would volunteer for that. 🙂

[Author]

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