OT: Obama is dumber than a box of rocks

[Casca]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
By the way, “Wonton” is a soup. I believe you were looking for “wanton”.[/quote]

Congratulations, would that you had such success proofing your own work.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]As I mentioned in my posting, yes, there is a good deal of difference between interrogation and torture. Stress techniques, including psyops, do not qualify as torture to me.[/quote]

WTF? I swear that you claimed many postings back, that waterboarding was torture, and quibbled with my definitions. Now you fold?

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]I find it somewhat repellent that you use the term “gold standard” when referring to the SD. Whatever respective differences that might exist between us, let me be clear when I say that anything having to do with the Nazi regime is abhorrent to me. That you find something noteworthy in how they and the Gestapo conduct torture is unconscionable, but it’s also your business.[/quote]

My boy their skill had little to do with their politics, and more to do with the ruthless efficiency of the German culture. They were so good, that we never successfully established a single espionage network in Western Europe during the war, and post WWII, when we came to our senses and realized that we were in a cold war with the Soviets, our intelligence services hired them on as contract employees. They knew everything about everybody, or as they say, where all the bodies were buried.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Any violent methods used to extract or extort information or intel is torture in my book. While you might consider wanton brutality against civilians and non-combatants not to be torture is splitting hairs in my opinion. Brutal it might be, but it is also torture in my opinion. Making parents watch while soldiers nail a baby’s head to a wall is torture: The act was designed to force the witnesses to talk and it was done with that explicit understanding. Thus, brutality and torture are not mutually exclusive; in many instances they are one and the same thing.[/quote]

Good gawd, I try to clarify, and you continue to muddy the water. The question before the house is whether or not torture is an effective method.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]As to my little “jaunt” through Central America: I was there for three years (1985 – 1988) and during some of the hottest periods of the conflict. It was not a limited tour by any stretch of the imagination, and I have the nightmares to prove it.

I don’t know your background, but I do take issue with those that advocate war and all of it’s terrible effects, but are unwilling to do any of the heavy lifting. Like I said, my abhorrence is based on personal experience, not something derived from my readings in the comfort of home and hearth.[/quote]

Who said “jaunt”? I have said nothing to deprecate your service. I’d applaud it, but I find that sort of thing condescending. I also find it unseemly to bully your way through an argument on the basis of a military experience that is rather thin. Were I a feckless civilian, or even worse, a sailor, I might have been dissuaded by your bluster. Accept that you are surrounded in this world by many men with experiences more complete than your own. Do a bit of reading, and you might absorb some of their experience. It may even be done in the comfort of your home. As old Sakini said, “Pain make man think. Thought make man wise. Wisdom make life endurable.”

[Casca]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
By the way, “Wonton” is a soup. I believe you were looking for “wanton”.[/quote]

Congratulations, would that you had such success proofing your own work.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]As I mentioned in my posting, yes, there is a good deal of difference between interrogation and torture. Stress techniques, including psyops, do not qualify as torture to me.[/quote]

WTF? I swear that you claimed many postings back, that waterboarding was torture, and quibbled with my definitions. Now you fold?

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]I find it somewhat repellent that you use the term “gold standard” when referring to the SD. Whatever respective differences that might exist between us, let me be clear when I say that anything having to do with the Nazi regime is abhorrent to me. That you find something noteworthy in how they and the Gestapo conduct torture is unconscionable, but it’s also your business.[/quote]

My boy their skill had little to do with their politics, and more to do with the ruthless efficiency of the German culture. They were so good, that we never successfully established a single espionage network in Western Europe during the war, and post WWII, when we came to our senses and realized that we were in a cold war with the Soviets, our intelligence services hired them on as contract employees. They knew everything about everybody, or as they say, where all the bodies were buried.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Any violent methods used to extract or extort information or intel is torture in my book. While you might consider wanton brutality against civilians and non-combatants not to be torture is splitting hairs in my opinion. Brutal it might be, but it is also torture in my opinion. Making parents watch while soldiers nail a baby’s head to a wall is torture: The act was designed to force the witnesses to talk and it was done with that explicit understanding. Thus, brutality and torture are not mutually exclusive; in many instances they are one and the same thing.[/quote]

Good gawd, I try to clarify, and you continue to muddy the water. The question before the house is whether or not torture is an effective method.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]As to my little “jaunt” through Central America: I was there for three years (1985 – 1988) and during some of the hottest periods of the conflict. It was not a limited tour by any stretch of the imagination, and I have the nightmares to prove it.

I don’t know your background, but I do take issue with those that advocate war and all of it’s terrible effects, but are unwilling to do any of the heavy lifting. Like I said, my abhorrence is based on personal experience, not something derived from my readings in the comfort of home and hearth.[/quote]

Who said “jaunt”? I have said nothing to deprecate your service. I’d applaud it, but I find that sort of thing condescending. I also find it unseemly to bully your way through an argument on the basis of a military experience that is rather thin. Were I a feckless civilian, or even worse, a sailor, I might have been dissuaded by your bluster. Accept that you are surrounded in this world by many men with experiences more complete than your own. Do a bit of reading, and you might absorb some of their experience. It may even be done in the comfort of your home. As old Sakini said, “Pain make man think. Thought make man wise. Wisdom make life endurable.”

[Shadowfax]

I wasn’t applying your comments to me specifically–just making clear, if only to myself, that the kind of “credibility” the other poster implies from whatever he/she did back in the day is pretty irrelevant, IMHO. Opinions being like assholes and all…. 😉

[Shadowfax]

I wasn’t applying your comments to me specifically–just making clear, if only to myself, that the kind of “credibility” the other poster implies from whatever he/she did back in the day is pretty irrelevant, IMHO. Opinions being like assholes and all…. 😉

[Shadowfax]

I wasn’t applying your comments to me specifically–just making clear, if only to myself, that the kind of “credibility” the other poster implies from whatever he/she did back in the day is pretty irrelevant, IMHO. Opinions being like assholes and all…. 😉

[Shadowfax]

I wasn’t applying your comments to me specifically–just making clear, if only to myself, that the kind of “credibility” the other poster implies from whatever he/she did back in the day is pretty irrelevant, IMHO. Opinions being like assholes and all…. 😉

[Shadowfax]

I wasn’t applying your comments to me specifically–just making clear, if only to myself, that the kind of “credibility” the other poster implies from whatever he/she did back in the day is pretty irrelevant, IMHO. Opinions being like assholes and all…. 😉

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Casca: You compared my military service to someone taking a ferry trip and claiming to know the ocean. Hence my use of the term “jaunt”. I accept that there are many others out there with greater experiences than my own (and some of them might even be women!). My point in referencing military service was to opine that it is wrong, IN MY OPINION, to be so cavalier on the topics of torture and war when one is either unwilling to put their money where their mouth is or has not gone out in the service of their country. Don’t agitate for war if you’re unwilling to fight.

I did not refer to you as feckless. I do not know your background, so I have not commented upon it. You, on the other hand, seem perfectly willing to pillory or castigate freely those who disagree with you, as well as referring to people as idiots in the course of the discussion.

Being of German descent (on both sides of the family), I have a very high opinion of German efficiency, as well as German ruthlessness. The Germans on my dad’s side were of the friendly East Prussian variety (Konigsberg and Stettin), so I am very familiar with the vaunted Teutonic style of “handling things”, especially opposition.

Again, as to hair splitting: We are clearly not communicating when it comes to “stress techniques”. Waterboarding, and this is personal opinion and not something out of an Army FM, is torture as far as I am concerned.

Rendition to places like Egypt, Jordan and Saudi is torture, again, as far as I am concerned. Those individuals that are sent to Egypt, for instance, are, by and large, never heard from again. The methods used in extracting information are vicious. You and I can quibble over whether or not waterboarding is torture, but the fact remains that waterboarding is the least of the privations that these individuals will suffer at the hands of our titular “allies”.

Gitmo, Abu Ghraib and rendition diminish our stature in the eyes of the world. If we have to stoop to the methods used by Nazis in order to win, then how is that victory? I understand that you are professing an admiration for the German way of doing things, but I am taking a more sanguine view and one with a longer time horizon. The minute we start conflating the US with Nazi Germany, we have lost far more than just the War on Terror. Which, more correctly, should be the War on Terrorism.

Based on personal experience, I don’t find torture to be an effective method of extracting information. One key point that has been missed in this discussion is whether or not the individual in question even has information to give. In the case of the Nazis, they discarded thousands of individuals in their quest for information, the vast number of which had absolutely nothing of value in terms of information. Using this logic, we should indeed keep all the people currently being held at Gitmo, torture them and discard those of no value. Again, it is not an apples to apples comparison between the present conflict (or any counterinsurgency operation) and WWII.

As to my “condenscending” to you: Really? You can heap scorn and derision on me and others on this post, but cry foul at this? Please, Casca, let’s have something of an objective standard here, alright? You are calling people idiots, but call me on the carpet for some point of punctilio?

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Casca: You compared my military service to someone taking a ferry trip and claiming to know the ocean. Hence my use of the term “jaunt”. I accept that there are many others out there with greater experiences than my own (and some of them might even be women!). My point in referencing military service was to opine that it is wrong, IN MY OPINION, to be so cavalier on the topics of torture and war when one is either unwilling to put their money where their mouth is or has not gone out in the service of their country. Don’t agitate for war if you’re unwilling to fight.

I did not refer to you as feckless. I do not know your background, so I have not commented upon it. You, on the other hand, seem perfectly willing to pillory or castigate freely those who disagree with you, as well as referring to people as idiots in the course of the discussion.

Being of German descent (on both sides of the family), I have a very high opinion of German efficiency, as well as German ruthlessness. The Germans on my dad’s side were of the friendly East Prussian variety (Konigsberg and Stettin), so I am very familiar with the vaunted Teutonic style of “handling things”, especially opposition.

Again, as to hair splitting: We are clearly not communicating when it comes to “stress techniques”. Waterboarding, and this is personal opinion and not something out of an Army FM, is torture as far as I am concerned.

Rendition to places like Egypt, Jordan and Saudi is torture, again, as far as I am concerned. Those individuals that are sent to Egypt, for instance, are, by and large, never heard from again. The methods used in extracting information are vicious. You and I can quibble over whether or not waterboarding is torture, but the fact remains that waterboarding is the least of the privations that these individuals will suffer at the hands of our titular “allies”.

Gitmo, Abu Ghraib and rendition diminish our stature in the eyes of the world. If we have to stoop to the methods used by Nazis in order to win, then how is that victory? I understand that you are professing an admiration for the German way of doing things, but I am taking a more sanguine view and one with a longer time horizon. The minute we start conflating the US with Nazi Germany, we have lost far more than just the War on Terror. Which, more correctly, should be the War on Terrorism.

Based on personal experience, I don’t find torture to be an effective method of extracting information. One key point that has been missed in this discussion is whether or not the individual in question even has information to give. In the case of the Nazis, they discarded thousands of individuals in their quest for information, the vast number of which had absolutely nothing of value in terms of information. Using this logic, we should indeed keep all the people currently being held at Gitmo, torture them and discard those of no value. Again, it is not an apples to apples comparison between the present conflict (or any counterinsurgency operation) and WWII.

As to my “condenscending” to you: Really? You can heap scorn and derision on me and others on this post, but cry foul at this? Please, Casca, let’s have something of an objective standard here, alright? You are calling people idiots, but call me on the carpet for some point of punctilio?

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Casca: You compared my military service to someone taking a ferry trip and claiming to know the ocean. Hence my use of the term “jaunt”. I accept that there are many others out there with greater experiences than my own (and some of them might even be women!). My point in referencing military service was to opine that it is wrong, IN MY OPINION, to be so cavalier on the topics of torture and war when one is either unwilling to put their money where their mouth is or has not gone out in the service of their country. Don’t agitate for war if you’re unwilling to fight.

I did not refer to you as feckless. I do not know your background, so I have not commented upon it. You, on the other hand, seem perfectly willing to pillory or castigate freely those who disagree with you, as well as referring to people as idiots in the course of the discussion.

Being of German descent (on both sides of the family), I have a very high opinion of German efficiency, as well as German ruthlessness. The Germans on my dad’s side were of the friendly East Prussian variety (Konigsberg and Stettin), so I am very familiar with the vaunted Teutonic style of “handling things”, especially opposition.

Again, as to hair splitting: We are clearly not communicating when it comes to “stress techniques”. Waterboarding, and this is personal opinion and not something out of an Army FM, is torture as far as I am concerned.

Rendition to places like Egypt, Jordan and Saudi is torture, again, as far as I am concerned. Those individuals that are sent to Egypt, for instance, are, by and large, never heard from again. The methods used in extracting information are vicious. You and I can quibble over whether or not waterboarding is torture, but the fact remains that waterboarding is the least of the privations that these individuals will suffer at the hands of our titular “allies”.

Gitmo, Abu Ghraib and rendition diminish our stature in the eyes of the world. If we have to stoop to the methods used by Nazis in order to win, then how is that victory? I understand that you are professing an admiration for the German way of doing things, but I am taking a more sanguine view and one with a longer time horizon. The minute we start conflating the US with Nazi Germany, we have lost far more than just the War on Terror. Which, more correctly, should be the War on Terrorism.

Based on personal experience, I don’t find torture to be an effective method of extracting information. One key point that has been missed in this discussion is whether or not the individual in question even has information to give. In the case of the Nazis, they discarded thousands of individuals in their quest for information, the vast number of which had absolutely nothing of value in terms of information. Using this logic, we should indeed keep all the people currently being held at Gitmo, torture them and discard those of no value. Again, it is not an apples to apples comparison between the present conflict (or any counterinsurgency operation) and WWII.

As to my “condenscending” to you: Really? You can heap scorn and derision on me and others on this post, but cry foul at this? Please, Casca, let’s have something of an objective standard here, alright? You are calling people idiots, but call me on the carpet for some point of punctilio?

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Casca: You compared my military service to someone taking a ferry trip and claiming to know the ocean. Hence my use of the term “jaunt”. I accept that there are many others out there with greater experiences than my own (and some of them might even be women!). My point in referencing military service was to opine that it is wrong, IN MY OPINION, to be so cavalier on the topics of torture and war when one is either unwilling to put their money where their mouth is or has not gone out in the service of their country. Don’t agitate for war if you’re unwilling to fight.

I did not refer to you as feckless. I do not know your background, so I have not commented upon it. You, on the other hand, seem perfectly willing to pillory or castigate freely those who disagree with you, as well as referring to people as idiots in the course of the discussion.

Being of German descent (on both sides of the family), I have a very high opinion of German efficiency, as well as German ruthlessness. The Germans on my dad’s side were of the friendly East Prussian variety (Konigsberg and Stettin), so I am very familiar with the vaunted Teutonic style of “handling things”, especially opposition.

Again, as to hair splitting: We are clearly not communicating when it comes to “stress techniques”. Waterboarding, and this is personal opinion and not something out of an Army FM, is torture as far as I am concerned.

Rendition to places like Egypt, Jordan and Saudi is torture, again, as far as I am concerned. Those individuals that are sent to Egypt, for instance, are, by and large, never heard from again. The methods used in extracting information are vicious. You and I can quibble over whether or not waterboarding is torture, but the fact remains that waterboarding is the least of the privations that these individuals will suffer at the hands of our titular “allies”.

Gitmo, Abu Ghraib and rendition diminish our stature in the eyes of the world. If we have to stoop to the methods used by Nazis in order to win, then how is that victory? I understand that you are professing an admiration for the German way of doing things, but I am taking a more sanguine view and one with a longer time horizon. The minute we start conflating the US with Nazi Germany, we have lost far more than just the War on Terror. Which, more correctly, should be the War on Terrorism.

Based on personal experience, I don’t find torture to be an effective method of extracting information. One key point that has been missed in this discussion is whether or not the individual in question even has information to give. In the case of the Nazis, they discarded thousands of individuals in their quest for information, the vast number of which had absolutely nothing of value in terms of information. Using this logic, we should indeed keep all the people currently being held at Gitmo, torture them and discard those of no value. Again, it is not an apples to apples comparison between the present conflict (or any counterinsurgency operation) and WWII.

As to my “condenscending” to you: Really? You can heap scorn and derision on me and others on this post, but cry foul at this? Please, Casca, let’s have something of an objective standard here, alright? You are calling people idiots, but call me on the carpet for some point of punctilio?

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Casca: You compared my military service to someone taking a ferry trip and claiming to know the ocean. Hence my use of the term “jaunt”. I accept that there are many others out there with greater experiences than my own (and some of them might even be women!). My point in referencing military service was to opine that it is wrong, IN MY OPINION, to be so cavalier on the topics of torture and war when one is either unwilling to put their money where their mouth is or has not gone out in the service of their country. Don’t agitate for war if you’re unwilling to fight.

I did not refer to you as feckless. I do not know your background, so I have not commented upon it. You, on the other hand, seem perfectly willing to pillory or castigate freely those who disagree with you, as well as referring to people as idiots in the course of the discussion.

Being of German descent (on both sides of the family), I have a very high opinion of German efficiency, as well as German ruthlessness. The Germans on my dad’s side were of the friendly East Prussian variety (Konigsberg and Stettin), so I am very familiar with the vaunted Teutonic style of “handling things”, especially opposition.

Again, as to hair splitting: We are clearly not communicating when it comes to “stress techniques”. Waterboarding, and this is personal opinion and not something out of an Army FM, is torture as far as I am concerned.

Rendition to places like Egypt, Jordan and Saudi is torture, again, as far as I am concerned. Those individuals that are sent to Egypt, for instance, are, by and large, never heard from again. The methods used in extracting information are vicious. You and I can quibble over whether or not waterboarding is torture, but the fact remains that waterboarding is the least of the privations that these individuals will suffer at the hands of our titular “allies”.

Gitmo, Abu Ghraib and rendition diminish our stature in the eyes of the world. If we have to stoop to the methods used by Nazis in order to win, then how is that victory? I understand that you are professing an admiration for the German way of doing things, but I am taking a more sanguine view and one with a longer time horizon. The minute we start conflating the US with Nazi Germany, we have lost far more than just the War on Terror. Which, more correctly, should be the War on Terrorism.

Based on personal experience, I don’t find torture to be an effective method of extracting information. One key point that has been missed in this discussion is whether or not the individual in question even has information to give. In the case of the Nazis, they discarded thousands of individuals in their quest for information, the vast number of which had absolutely nothing of value in terms of information. Using this logic, we should indeed keep all the people currently being held at Gitmo, torture them and discard those of no value. Again, it is not an apples to apples comparison between the present conflict (or any counterinsurgency operation) and WWII.

As to my “condenscending” to you: Really? You can heap scorn and derision on me and others on this post, but cry foul at this? Please, Casca, let’s have something of an objective standard here, alright? You are calling people idiots, but call me on the carpet for some point of punctilio?

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Shadowfax: Agreed and understood. I am taking the admonition to “do a little reading” to heart, though. I need some help with the big words, but I’m going to try.

Speaking of “Lord of the Flies”: Every time I read that, I think of Catholic school. Seriously. A few too many parallels in there to make me completely comfortable…

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Shadowfax: Agreed and understood. I am taking the admonition to “do a little reading” to heart, though. I need some help with the big words, but I’m going to try.

Speaking of “Lord of the Flies”: Every time I read that, I think of Catholic school. Seriously. A few too many parallels in there to make me completely comfortable…

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Shadowfax: Agreed and understood. I am taking the admonition to “do a little reading” to heart, though. I need some help with the big words, but I’m going to try.

Speaking of “Lord of the Flies”: Every time I read that, I think of Catholic school. Seriously. A few too many parallels in there to make me completely comfortable…

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