OT: Obama is dumber than a box of rocks

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Casca: You make a couple of excellent points, and I agree that excising certain aspects is in order.

By the way, “Wonton” is a soup. I believe you were looking for “wanton”.

As I mentioned in my posting, yes, there is a good deal of difference between interrogation and torture. Stress techniques, including psyops, do not qualify as torture to me.

I find it somewhat repellent that you use the term “gold standard” when referring to the SD. Whatever respective differences that might exist between us, let me be clear when I say that anything having to do with the Nazi regime is abhorrent to me. That you find something noteworthy in how they and the Gestapo conduct torture is unconscionable, but it’s also your business.

Any violent methods used to extract or extort information or intel is torture in my book. While you might consider wanton brutality against civilians and non-combatants not to be torture is splitting hairs in my opinion. Brutal it might be, but it is also torture in my opinion. Making parents watch while soldiers nail a baby’s head to a wall is torture: The act was designed to force the witnesses to talk and it was done with that explicit understanding. Thus, brutality and torture are not mutually exclusive; in many instances they are one and the same thing.

As to my little “jaunt” through Central America: I was there for three years (1985 – 1988) and during some of the hottest periods of the conflict. It was not a limited tour by any stretch of the imagination, and I have the nightmares to prove it.

I don’t know your background, but I do take issue with those that advocate war and all of it’s terrible effects, but are unwilling to do any of the heavy lifting. Like I said, my abhorrence is based on personal experience, not something derived from my readings in the comfort of home and hearth.

[Shadowfax]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]….not something derived from my readings in the comfort of home and hearth.[/quote]

That’s where I formed my opinions and I am just fine with that. It doesn’t make anybody else’s opinions superior.

My take-away from reading Lord of the Flies is that the world would be a much different place, I think, if women ruled. There’d me a lot more chatter but no nailing babies’ heads to a wall… Gruesome! Just visualizing it give me a visceral response that is really horrible. What are you if you can do that to someone…?

[Shadowfax]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]….not something derived from my readings in the comfort of home and hearth.[/quote]

That’s where I formed my opinions and I am just fine with that. It doesn’t make anybody else’s opinions superior.

My take-away from reading Lord of the Flies is that the world would be a much different place, I think, if women ruled. There’d me a lot more chatter but no nailing babies’ heads to a wall… Gruesome! Just visualizing it give me a visceral response that is really horrible. What are you if you can do that to someone…?

[Shadowfax]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]….not something derived from my readings in the comfort of home and hearth.[/quote]

That’s where I formed my opinions and I am just fine with that. It doesn’t make anybody else’s opinions superior.

My take-away from reading Lord of the Flies is that the world would be a much different place, I think, if women ruled. There’d me a lot more chatter but no nailing babies’ heads to a wall… Gruesome! Just visualizing it give me a visceral response that is really horrible. What are you if you can do that to someone…?

[Shadowfax]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]….not something derived from my readings in the comfort of home and hearth.[/quote]

That’s where I formed my opinions and I am just fine with that. It doesn’t make anybody else’s opinions superior.

My take-away from reading Lord of the Flies is that the world would be a much different place, I think, if women ruled. There’d me a lot more chatter but no nailing babies’ heads to a wall… Gruesome! Just visualizing it give me a visceral response that is really horrible. What are you if you can do that to someone…?

[Shadowfax]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]….not something derived from my readings in the comfort of home and hearth.[/quote]

That’s where I formed my opinions and I am just fine with that. It doesn’t make anybody else’s opinions superior.

My take-away from reading Lord of the Flies is that the world would be a much different place, I think, if women ruled. There’d me a lot more chatter but no nailing babies’ heads to a wall… Gruesome! Just visualizing it give me a visceral response that is really horrible. What are you if you can do that to someone…?

[Shadowfax]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]….not something derived from my readings in the comfort of home and hearth.[/quote]

That’s where I formed my opinions and I am just fine with that. It doesn’t make anybody else’s opinions superior.

My take-away from reading Lord of the Flies is that the world would be a much different place, I think, if women ruled. There’d me a lot more chatter but no nailing babies’ heads to a wall… Gruesome! Just visualizing it give me a visceral response that is really horrible. What are you if you can do that to someone…?

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Shadowfax: I didn’t make the comment to impugn those that hadn’t served, rather I made it to say don’t advocate something you’re unwilling to go and do yourself.

I abhor those people that are willing to rattle the sabers and advocate war, but haven’t served and wouldn’t if called upon to.

It is easy to armchair quarterback and make value judgments when you don’t have skin in the game. IMHO, it lessens the impact of one’s statements, though, largely because there isn’t anything to back what you are saying up. In order to talk the talk, you must have walked the walk.

As to much of what on down in that part of the world back in the day: Yeah, it was gruesome. You’d be amazed at what people are willing to do when you have propagandized them. We did a real good job of that with our forces in the Pacific War against the Japanese.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Shadowfax: I didn’t make the comment to impugn those that hadn’t served, rather I made it to say don’t advocate something you’re unwilling to go and do yourself.

I abhor those people that are willing to rattle the sabers and advocate war, but haven’t served and wouldn’t if called upon to.

It is easy to armchair quarterback and make value judgments when you don’t have skin in the game. IMHO, it lessens the impact of one’s statements, though, largely because there isn’t anything to back what you are saying up. In order to talk the talk, you must have walked the walk.

As to much of what on down in that part of the world back in the day: Yeah, it was gruesome. You’d be amazed at what people are willing to do when you have propagandized them. We did a real good job of that with our forces in the Pacific War against the Japanese.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Shadowfax: I didn’t make the comment to impugn those that hadn’t served, rather I made it to say don’t advocate something you’re unwilling to go and do yourself.

I abhor those people that are willing to rattle the sabers and advocate war, but haven’t served and wouldn’t if called upon to.

It is easy to armchair quarterback and make value judgments when you don’t have skin in the game. IMHO, it lessens the impact of one’s statements, though, largely because there isn’t anything to back what you are saying up. In order to talk the talk, you must have walked the walk.

As to much of what on down in that part of the world back in the day: Yeah, it was gruesome. You’d be amazed at what people are willing to do when you have propagandized them. We did a real good job of that with our forces in the Pacific War against the Japanese.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Shadowfax: I didn’t make the comment to impugn those that hadn’t served, rather I made it to say don’t advocate something you’re unwilling to go and do yourself.

I abhor those people that are willing to rattle the sabers and advocate war, but haven’t served and wouldn’t if called upon to.

It is easy to armchair quarterback and make value judgments when you don’t have skin in the game. IMHO, it lessens the impact of one’s statements, though, largely because there isn’t anything to back what you are saying up. In order to talk the talk, you must have walked the walk.

As to much of what on down in that part of the world back in the day: Yeah, it was gruesome. You’d be amazed at what people are willing to do when you have propagandized them. We did a real good job of that with our forces in the Pacific War against the Japanese.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Shadowfax: I didn’t make the comment to impugn those that hadn’t served, rather I made it to say don’t advocate something you’re unwilling to go and do yourself.

I abhor those people that are willing to rattle the sabers and advocate war, but haven’t served and wouldn’t if called upon to.

It is easy to armchair quarterback and make value judgments when you don’t have skin in the game. IMHO, it lessens the impact of one’s statements, though, largely because there isn’t anything to back what you are saying up. In order to talk the talk, you must have walked the walk.

As to much of what on down in that part of the world back in the day: Yeah, it was gruesome. You’d be amazed at what people are willing to do when you have propagandized them. We did a real good job of that with our forces in the Pacific War against the Japanese.

[Casca]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
By the way, “Wonton” is a soup. I believe you were looking for “wanton”.[/quote]

Congratulations, would that you had such success proofing your own work.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]As I mentioned in my posting, yes, there is a good deal of difference between interrogation and torture. Stress techniques, including psyops, do not qualify as torture to me.[/quote]

WTF? I swear that you claimed many postings back, that waterboarding was torture, and quibbled with my definitions. Now you fold?

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]I find it somewhat repellent that you use the term “gold standard” when referring to the SD. Whatever respective differences that might exist between us, let me be clear when I say that anything having to do with the Nazi regime is abhorrent to me. That you find something noteworthy in how they and the Gestapo conduct torture is unconscionable, but it’s also your business.[/quote]

My boy their skill had little to do with their politics, and more to do with the ruthless efficiency of the German culture. They were so good, that we never successfully established a single espionage network in Western Europe during the war, and post WWII, when we came to our senses and realized that we were in a cold war with the Soviets, our intelligence services hired them on as contract employees. They knew everything about everybody, or as they say, where all the bodies were buried.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Any violent methods used to extract or extort information or intel is torture in my book. While you might consider wanton brutality against civilians and non-combatants not to be torture is splitting hairs in my opinion. Brutal it might be, but it is also torture in my opinion. Making parents watch while soldiers nail a baby’s head to a wall is torture: The act was designed to force the witnesses to talk and it was done with that explicit understanding. Thus, brutality and torture are not mutually exclusive; in many instances they are one and the same thing.[/quote]

Good gawd, I try to clarify, and you continue to muddy the water. The question before the house is whether or not torture is an effective method.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]As to my little “jaunt” through Central America: I was there for three years (1985 – 1988) and during some of the hottest periods of the conflict. It was not a limited tour by any stretch of the imagination, and I have the nightmares to prove it.

I don’t know your background, but I do take issue with those that advocate war and all of it’s terrible effects, but are unwilling to do any of the heavy lifting. Like I said, my abhorrence is based on personal experience, not something derived from my readings in the comfort of home and hearth.[/quote]

Who said “jaunt”? I have said nothing to deprecate your service. I’d applaud it, but I find that sort of thing condescending. I also find it unseemly to bully your way through an argument on the basis of a military experience that is rather thin. Were I a feckless civilian, or even worse, a sailor, I might have been dissuaded by your bluster. Accept that you are surrounded in this world by many men with experiences more complete than your own. Do a bit of reading, and you might absorb some of their experience. It may even be done in the comfort of your home. As old Sakini said, “Pain make man think. Thought make man wise. Wisdom make life endurable.”

[Casca]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
By the way, “Wonton” is a soup. I believe you were looking for “wanton”.[/quote]

Congratulations, would that you had such success proofing your own work.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]As I mentioned in my posting, yes, there is a good deal of difference between interrogation and torture. Stress techniques, including psyops, do not qualify as torture to me.[/quote]

WTF? I swear that you claimed many postings back, that waterboarding was torture, and quibbled with my definitions. Now you fold?

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]I find it somewhat repellent that you use the term “gold standard” when referring to the SD. Whatever respective differences that might exist between us, let me be clear when I say that anything having to do with the Nazi regime is abhorrent to me. That you find something noteworthy in how they and the Gestapo conduct torture is unconscionable, but it’s also your business.[/quote]

My boy their skill had little to do with their politics, and more to do with the ruthless efficiency of the German culture. They were so good, that we never successfully established a single espionage network in Western Europe during the war, and post WWII, when we came to our senses and realized that we were in a cold war with the Soviets, our intelligence services hired them on as contract employees. They knew everything about everybody, or as they say, where all the bodies were buried.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Any violent methods used to extract or extort information or intel is torture in my book. While you might consider wanton brutality against civilians and non-combatants not to be torture is splitting hairs in my opinion. Brutal it might be, but it is also torture in my opinion. Making parents watch while soldiers nail a baby’s head to a wall is torture: The act was designed to force the witnesses to talk and it was done with that explicit understanding. Thus, brutality and torture are not mutually exclusive; in many instances they are one and the same thing.[/quote]

Good gawd, I try to clarify, and you continue to muddy the water. The question before the house is whether or not torture is an effective method.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]As to my little “jaunt” through Central America: I was there for three years (1985 – 1988) and during some of the hottest periods of the conflict. It was not a limited tour by any stretch of the imagination, and I have the nightmares to prove it.

I don’t know your background, but I do take issue with those that advocate war and all of it’s terrible effects, but are unwilling to do any of the heavy lifting. Like I said, my abhorrence is based on personal experience, not something derived from my readings in the comfort of home and hearth.[/quote]

Who said “jaunt”? I have said nothing to deprecate your service. I’d applaud it, but I find that sort of thing condescending. I also find it unseemly to bully your way through an argument on the basis of a military experience that is rather thin. Were I a feckless civilian, or even worse, a sailor, I might have been dissuaded by your bluster. Accept that you are surrounded in this world by many men with experiences more complete than your own. Do a bit of reading, and you might absorb some of their experience. It may even be done in the comfort of your home. As old Sakini said, “Pain make man think. Thought make man wise. Wisdom make life endurable.”

[Casca]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
By the way, “Wonton” is a soup. I believe you were looking for “wanton”.[/quote]

Congratulations, would that you had such success proofing your own work.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]As I mentioned in my posting, yes, there is a good deal of difference between interrogation and torture. Stress techniques, including psyops, do not qualify as torture to me.[/quote]

WTF? I swear that you claimed many postings back, that waterboarding was torture, and quibbled with my definitions. Now you fold?

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]I find it somewhat repellent that you use the term “gold standard” when referring to the SD. Whatever respective differences that might exist between us, let me be clear when I say that anything having to do with the Nazi regime is abhorrent to me. That you find something noteworthy in how they and the Gestapo conduct torture is unconscionable, but it’s also your business.[/quote]

My boy their skill had little to do with their politics, and more to do with the ruthless efficiency of the German culture. They were so good, that we never successfully established a single espionage network in Western Europe during the war, and post WWII, when we came to our senses and realized that we were in a cold war with the Soviets, our intelligence services hired them on as contract employees. They knew everything about everybody, or as they say, where all the bodies were buried.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Any violent methods used to extract or extort information or intel is torture in my book. While you might consider wanton brutality against civilians and non-combatants not to be torture is splitting hairs in my opinion. Brutal it might be, but it is also torture in my opinion. Making parents watch while soldiers nail a baby’s head to a wall is torture: The act was designed to force the witnesses to talk and it was done with that explicit understanding. Thus, brutality and torture are not mutually exclusive; in many instances they are one and the same thing.[/quote]

Good gawd, I try to clarify, and you continue to muddy the water. The question before the house is whether or not torture is an effective method.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]As to my little “jaunt” through Central America: I was there for three years (1985 – 1988) and during some of the hottest periods of the conflict. It was not a limited tour by any stretch of the imagination, and I have the nightmares to prove it.

I don’t know your background, but I do take issue with those that advocate war and all of it’s terrible effects, but are unwilling to do any of the heavy lifting. Like I said, my abhorrence is based on personal experience, not something derived from my readings in the comfort of home and hearth.[/quote]

Who said “jaunt”? I have said nothing to deprecate your service. I’d applaud it, but I find that sort of thing condescending. I also find it unseemly to bully your way through an argument on the basis of a military experience that is rather thin. Were I a feckless civilian, or even worse, a sailor, I might have been dissuaded by your bluster. Accept that you are surrounded in this world by many men with experiences more complete than your own. Do a bit of reading, and you might absorb some of their experience. It may even be done in the comfort of your home. As old Sakini said, “Pain make man think. Thought make man wise. Wisdom make life endurable.”

[Author]

Posts