OT: Obama is dumber than a box of rocks

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]toots: I think there needs to be a distinction between liberals and left-wingers. I think the word “liberal” is a good word, and not a pejorative, but I loathe left-wingers.

As I’m sure gandalf would be the first to tell you, I am extremely conservative, in the old school Goldwater Republican camp. I would never accuse a liberal of hating their country, but would accuse a left-winger of doing so.

It is much akin to Susan Sontag opining after 9/11 that we “deserved” it. While I feel that our foreign policy in the Middle East has run between complete ignorance and ineptitude, claiming that Osama bin Laden was justified in his actions is beyond the pale and contemptible.

I don’t hold that we are above criticism. To the contrary, I believe that we need to change our approach in that part of the world and that the past 50 years have shown significant errors in our relationships and our strategies. Support for countries like Saudi Arabia and Egypt are going to come back to haunt us, and we need to see that part of the world in a whole new way.

All of that being said, however, I don’t feel that either of the candidates is a good choice for that particular job. I have McCain on one hand openly advocating the bombing of Iran and Obama on the other completely missing the point as to why Iran should not have The Bomb.
[/quote]

Again, irritated that you do not do these wonder posts more often.
This leads me to other questions (you are good at doing that).
1:
I consider myself a member of the liberal left. I don’t consider myself a member of the radical left nor do I consider myself particularly reactionary. But clearly, with my opinions on social programs and economics, I am generally to the left of the current government in the US. What about leftism do you find contemptible? Perhaps a better question would be, what do you see as left? It is a polysemous term.

2:
Why do you find Iran dangerous? They have a weak president, a strong legislature, and a super-strong judiciary. The only person that seems to noisily chant about the US and Israel is the weak president. Is the president the problem or are prior actions indicative of current intent or what exactly?
I don’t necessarily disagree but the silliness of my debate with Surveyor made me think about Iran and what the real danger there is. It really feels like we are just hating on a grudge (kind of like Cuba).
Sound off.
Anyone with an actual opinion, I would be interested in hearing it. If you are just a hater spouting vitriol, then not so much.

[speedingpullet]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

And, make no mistake, you’d get your wish to have al-Qaeda come out and fight. The problem is that you would galvanize tens of thousands of previously moderate Arabs as well, and from 150+ countries throughout the world.[/quote]

I have to agree with Allan here about Saudi Arabia – imagine what would happen if an Islamic Army (of any country) were to occupy the Vatican, for ‘security purposes’?
No matter what your flavour, Christians around the world would be up in arms about it. Over a billion people worldwide consider Mecca the centre of the world, you really don’t want to pi$$ off that many people without a really, really good reason.

I also think that getting out of Iraq – whether you’re of the ‘after my first term in 2013’ or the ‘troops out in 16 months’ persuasion – is going to make a big difference for the US re: Middle East relations.

And – maybe someone can explain this – I don’t understand why the US keeps on trying to fight a conventional war against what is a classic Guerilla movement (or asymmetric warfare, pick your poison) – in Al Quaida?.

Why isn’t the military taking a leaf out of both the UK and Israeli methods and copying MI6 and Mossad? They’re both internationally famous for infiltrating their enemies and bringing them down from within.

OK, it doesn’t look as heroic as a bunch of Marines taking a hill in a firestorm, but it would be a more appropriate method for finding and taking down Al Quaida than we’re doing at the moment.

Its not as if the US doesn’t have native speakers, the technology, or the manpower to be ‘softly, soflty, catchy monkey’, in the words of John Le Carre.

[speedingpullet]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

And, make no mistake, you’d get your wish to have al-Qaeda come out and fight. The problem is that you would galvanize tens of thousands of previously moderate Arabs as well, and from 150+ countries throughout the world.[/quote]

I have to agree with Allan here about Saudi Arabia – imagine what would happen if an Islamic Army (of any country) were to occupy the Vatican, for ‘security purposes’?
No matter what your flavour, Christians around the world would be up in arms about it. Over a billion people worldwide consider Mecca the centre of the world, you really don’t want to pi$$ off that many people without a really, really good reason.

I also think that getting out of Iraq – whether you’re of the ‘after my first term in 2013’ or the ‘troops out in 16 months’ persuasion – is going to make a big difference for the US re: Middle East relations.

And – maybe someone can explain this – I don’t understand why the US keeps on trying to fight a conventional war against what is a classic Guerilla movement (or asymmetric warfare, pick your poison) – in Al Quaida?.

Why isn’t the military taking a leaf out of both the UK and Israeli methods and copying MI6 and Mossad? They’re both internationally famous for infiltrating their enemies and bringing them down from within.

OK, it doesn’t look as heroic as a bunch of Marines taking a hill in a firestorm, but it would be a more appropriate method for finding and taking down Al Quaida than we’re doing at the moment.

Its not as if the US doesn’t have native speakers, the technology, or the manpower to be ‘softly, soflty, catchy monkey’, in the words of John Le Carre.

[speedingpullet]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

And, make no mistake, you’d get your wish to have al-Qaeda come out and fight. The problem is that you would galvanize tens of thousands of previously moderate Arabs as well, and from 150+ countries throughout the world.[/quote]

I have to agree with Allan here about Saudi Arabia – imagine what would happen if an Islamic Army (of any country) were to occupy the Vatican, for ‘security purposes’?
No matter what your flavour, Christians around the world would be up in arms about it. Over a billion people worldwide consider Mecca the centre of the world, you really don’t want to pi$$ off that many people without a really, really good reason.

I also think that getting out of Iraq – whether you’re of the ‘after my first term in 2013’ or the ‘troops out in 16 months’ persuasion – is going to make a big difference for the US re: Middle East relations.

And – maybe someone can explain this – I don’t understand why the US keeps on trying to fight a conventional war against what is a classic Guerilla movement (or asymmetric warfare, pick your poison) – in Al Quaida?.

Why isn’t the military taking a leaf out of both the UK and Israeli methods and copying MI6 and Mossad? They’re both internationally famous for infiltrating their enemies and bringing them down from within.

OK, it doesn’t look as heroic as a bunch of Marines taking a hill in a firestorm, but it would be a more appropriate method for finding and taking down Al Quaida than we’re doing at the moment.

Its not as if the US doesn’t have native speakers, the technology, or the manpower to be ‘softly, soflty, catchy monkey’, in the words of John Le Carre.

[speedingpullet]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

And, make no mistake, you’d get your wish to have al-Qaeda come out and fight. The problem is that you would galvanize tens of thousands of previously moderate Arabs as well, and from 150+ countries throughout the world.[/quote]

I have to agree with Allan here about Saudi Arabia – imagine what would happen if an Islamic Army (of any country) were to occupy the Vatican, for ‘security purposes’?
No matter what your flavour, Christians around the world would be up in arms about it. Over a billion people worldwide consider Mecca the centre of the world, you really don’t want to pi$$ off that many people without a really, really good reason.

I also think that getting out of Iraq – whether you’re of the ‘after my first term in 2013’ or the ‘troops out in 16 months’ persuasion – is going to make a big difference for the US re: Middle East relations.

And – maybe someone can explain this – I don’t understand why the US keeps on trying to fight a conventional war against what is a classic Guerilla movement (or asymmetric warfare, pick your poison) – in Al Quaida?.

Why isn’t the military taking a leaf out of both the UK and Israeli methods and copying MI6 and Mossad? They’re both internationally famous for infiltrating their enemies and bringing them down from within.

OK, it doesn’t look as heroic as a bunch of Marines taking a hill in a firestorm, but it would be a more appropriate method for finding and taking down Al Quaida than we’re doing at the moment.

Its not as if the US doesn’t have native speakers, the technology, or the manpower to be ‘softly, soflty, catchy monkey’, in the words of John Le Carre.

[speedingpullet]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

And, make no mistake, you’d get your wish to have al-Qaeda come out and fight. The problem is that you would galvanize tens of thousands of previously moderate Arabs as well, and from 150+ countries throughout the world.[/quote]

I have to agree with Allan here about Saudi Arabia – imagine what would happen if an Islamic Army (of any country) were to occupy the Vatican, for ‘security purposes’?
No matter what your flavour, Christians around the world would be up in arms about it. Over a billion people worldwide consider Mecca the centre of the world, you really don’t want to pi$$ off that many people without a really, really good reason.

I also think that getting out of Iraq – whether you’re of the ‘after my first term in 2013’ or the ‘troops out in 16 months’ persuasion – is going to make a big difference for the US re: Middle East relations.

And – maybe someone can explain this – I don’t understand why the US keeps on trying to fight a conventional war against what is a classic Guerilla movement (or asymmetric warfare, pick your poison) – in Al Quaida?.

Why isn’t the military taking a leaf out of both the UK and Israeli methods and copying MI6 and Mossad? They’re both internationally famous for infiltrating their enemies and bringing them down from within.

OK, it doesn’t look as heroic as a bunch of Marines taking a hill in a firestorm, but it would be a more appropriate method for finding and taking down Al Quaida than we’re doing at the moment.

Its not as if the US doesn’t have native speakers, the technology, or the manpower to be ‘softly, soflty, catchy monkey’, in the words of John Le Carre.

[jficquette]

[quote=toots]Wow, thanks everyone. I read things I had not considered about Obama. Don’t know if they’re all true, but it’s worth thinking about

So, I have read here lots of reasons why I shouldn’t vote for Obama, but not too much about why I should vote for McCain. Because he’s white and patriotic?

Enlighten me more. I’m listening.

ps someone please tell me why right-wingers keep saying liberals are not patriotic? Because we hate this war? My husband and I and all our friends are liberal, and we all love our country.[/quote]

How does your love for the country manifest itself??

Liberals talk that love but having a Joke like Obama as the torch bearer says otherwise.

John

[jficquette]

[quote=toots]Wow, thanks everyone. I read things I had not considered about Obama. Don’t know if they’re all true, but it’s worth thinking about

So, I have read here lots of reasons why I shouldn’t vote for Obama, but not too much about why I should vote for McCain. Because he’s white and patriotic?

Enlighten me more. I’m listening.

ps someone please tell me why right-wingers keep saying liberals are not patriotic? Because we hate this war? My husband and I and all our friends are liberal, and we all love our country.[/quote]

How does your love for the country manifest itself??

Liberals talk that love but having a Joke like Obama as the torch bearer says otherwise.

John

[jficquette]

[quote=toots]Wow, thanks everyone. I read things I had not considered about Obama. Don’t know if they’re all true, but it’s worth thinking about

So, I have read here lots of reasons why I shouldn’t vote for Obama, but not too much about why I should vote for McCain. Because he’s white and patriotic?

Enlighten me more. I’m listening.

ps someone please tell me why right-wingers keep saying liberals are not patriotic? Because we hate this war? My husband and I and all our friends are liberal, and we all love our country.[/quote]

How does your love for the country manifest itself??

Liberals talk that love but having a Joke like Obama as the torch bearer says otherwise.

John

[jficquette]

[quote=toots]Wow, thanks everyone. I read things I had not considered about Obama. Don’t know if they’re all true, but it’s worth thinking about

So, I have read here lots of reasons why I shouldn’t vote for Obama, but not too much about why I should vote for McCain. Because he’s white and patriotic?

Enlighten me more. I’m listening.

ps someone please tell me why right-wingers keep saying liberals are not patriotic? Because we hate this war? My husband and I and all our friends are liberal, and we all love our country.[/quote]

How does your love for the country manifest itself??

Liberals talk that love but having a Joke like Obama as the torch bearer says otherwise.

John

[jficquette]

[quote=toots]Wow, thanks everyone. I read things I had not considered about Obama. Don’t know if they’re all true, but it’s worth thinking about

So, I have read here lots of reasons why I shouldn’t vote for Obama, but not too much about why I should vote for McCain. Because he’s white and patriotic?

Enlighten me more. I’m listening.

ps someone please tell me why right-wingers keep saying liberals are not patriotic? Because we hate this war? My husband and I and all our friends are liberal, and we all love our country.[/quote]

How does your love for the country manifest itself??

Liberals talk that love but having a Joke like Obama as the torch bearer says otherwise.

John

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Dan,

I need to clarify what I mean by leftists, as the word and the movement can sometimes get tangled. When I say leftist, I am speaking of the “red diaper baby” radicals of the 1960s. When I say liberal, I mean those that are not radical and/or reactionary.

I am an arch-conservative Republican, but have no truck with the latest iteration of the Republican Party. Dubya is not a conservative Republican to me, and his policies and politics show that. Nor is McCain, for that matter. Obama remains something of a cipher to me, largely because there is not enough history behind him and, beyond the beautiful rhetoric, I have been unable to really seize onto anything of substance.

Why do I find the radical Left (capital “L”) contemptible? Because they represent the worst excesses of an elitist intelligentsia that is completely divorced from any sort of objective reality. I used Susan Sontag as an example for a reason. I would include Ward Churchill, Gore Vidal and even Janeane Garofalo in there as well. From the PC movement to the politics of identity, you smell the strong odor of Soviet groupthink and intellectual fascism. Those who control the language do control the culture, and these people have done everything in their power to stifle dissent and debate and impose a monolithic mindset that demands conformity at the risk of ostracism, or worse.

So we’re clear: I would turn to the other end of the spectrum and include Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin and Rush Limbaugh also. The Far Right is not immune from the same sort of moral infantilism, it just smells differently.

I find Iran dangerous solely because of the volatility of the region. Iran’s president is bent on provocation and with Israel’s history of hair trigger responses, you run the very real risk of a rapid escalation that moves beyond any one player’s ability to control things.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Dan,

I need to clarify what I mean by leftists, as the word and the movement can sometimes get tangled. When I say leftist, I am speaking of the “red diaper baby” radicals of the 1960s. When I say liberal, I mean those that are not radical and/or reactionary.

I am an arch-conservative Republican, but have no truck with the latest iteration of the Republican Party. Dubya is not a conservative Republican to me, and his policies and politics show that. Nor is McCain, for that matter. Obama remains something of a cipher to me, largely because there is not enough history behind him and, beyond the beautiful rhetoric, I have been unable to really seize onto anything of substance.

Why do I find the radical Left (capital “L”) contemptible? Because they represent the worst excesses of an elitist intelligentsia that is completely divorced from any sort of objective reality. I used Susan Sontag as an example for a reason. I would include Ward Churchill, Gore Vidal and even Janeane Garofalo in there as well. From the PC movement to the politics of identity, you smell the strong odor of Soviet groupthink and intellectual fascism. Those who control the language do control the culture, and these people have done everything in their power to stifle dissent and debate and impose a monolithic mindset that demands conformity at the risk of ostracism, or worse.

So we’re clear: I would turn to the other end of the spectrum and include Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin and Rush Limbaugh also. The Far Right is not immune from the same sort of moral infantilism, it just smells differently.

I find Iran dangerous solely because of the volatility of the region. Iran’s president is bent on provocation and with Israel’s history of hair trigger responses, you run the very real risk of a rapid escalation that moves beyond any one player’s ability to control things.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Dan,

I need to clarify what I mean by leftists, as the word and the movement can sometimes get tangled. When I say leftist, I am speaking of the “red diaper baby” radicals of the 1960s. When I say liberal, I mean those that are not radical and/or reactionary.

I am an arch-conservative Republican, but have no truck with the latest iteration of the Republican Party. Dubya is not a conservative Republican to me, and his policies and politics show that. Nor is McCain, for that matter. Obama remains something of a cipher to me, largely because there is not enough history behind him and, beyond the beautiful rhetoric, I have been unable to really seize onto anything of substance.

Why do I find the radical Left (capital “L”) contemptible? Because they represent the worst excesses of an elitist intelligentsia that is completely divorced from any sort of objective reality. I used Susan Sontag as an example for a reason. I would include Ward Churchill, Gore Vidal and even Janeane Garofalo in there as well. From the PC movement to the politics of identity, you smell the strong odor of Soviet groupthink and intellectual fascism. Those who control the language do control the culture, and these people have done everything in their power to stifle dissent and debate and impose a monolithic mindset that demands conformity at the risk of ostracism, or worse.

So we’re clear: I would turn to the other end of the spectrum and include Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin and Rush Limbaugh also. The Far Right is not immune from the same sort of moral infantilism, it just smells differently.

I find Iran dangerous solely because of the volatility of the region. Iran’s president is bent on provocation and with Israel’s history of hair trigger responses, you run the very real risk of a rapid escalation that moves beyond any one player’s ability to control things.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Dan,

I need to clarify what I mean by leftists, as the word and the movement can sometimes get tangled. When I say leftist, I am speaking of the “red diaper baby” radicals of the 1960s. When I say liberal, I mean those that are not radical and/or reactionary.

I am an arch-conservative Republican, but have no truck with the latest iteration of the Republican Party. Dubya is not a conservative Republican to me, and his policies and politics show that. Nor is McCain, for that matter. Obama remains something of a cipher to me, largely because there is not enough history behind him and, beyond the beautiful rhetoric, I have been unable to really seize onto anything of substance.

Why do I find the radical Left (capital “L”) contemptible? Because they represent the worst excesses of an elitist intelligentsia that is completely divorced from any sort of objective reality. I used Susan Sontag as an example for a reason. I would include Ward Churchill, Gore Vidal and even Janeane Garofalo in there as well. From the PC movement to the politics of identity, you smell the strong odor of Soviet groupthink and intellectual fascism. Those who control the language do control the culture, and these people have done everything in their power to stifle dissent and debate and impose a monolithic mindset that demands conformity at the risk of ostracism, or worse.

So we’re clear: I would turn to the other end of the spectrum and include Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin and Rush Limbaugh also. The Far Right is not immune from the same sort of moral infantilism, it just smells differently.

I find Iran dangerous solely because of the volatility of the region. Iran’s president is bent on provocation and with Israel’s history of hair trigger responses, you run the very real risk of a rapid escalation that moves beyond any one player’s ability to control things.

[Author]

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