ot. free will

[scaredyclassic]

So after a late nite showing of interstellar the wife and I were up till 1 am discussing whether free will exists with the offspring. She was shocked to learn that they adamantly deny the existence of free will. Their arguments were pretty persuasive but we were sso. Surprised that they had alreadyour thought so hard on nit.

Does free will exist?

[The-Shoveler]

Not sure, I have become convinced however that just about everyone gains enough speed to get a glimpse beyond the vale once or twice during their lives. Just not sure what it all means.
Oh well, time for another coffee.

[NotCranky]

Yes, but exercising it very much is not really going to work in lots of areas of life.

For instance, I have 20 Acres with room to put up about a hundred free will advocate families in trailers , if we did that it would be Ruby Ridge all over again.

Almost anywhere you might get boldly free will harm will come to you because of it. March to a different drum is fine up to a point but most people don’t really want to as far as I can tell.

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=Blogstar]Yes, but exercising it very much is not really going to work in lots of areas of life.

For instance, I have 20 Acres with room to put up about a hundred free will advocate families in trailers , if we did that it would be Ruby Ridge all over again.

Almost anywhere you might get boldly free will harm will come to you because of it. March to a different drum is fine up to a point but most people don’t really want to as far as I can tell.[/quote]

see the lego movie. sing EVERYTHING IS AWESOME

[moneymaker]

Free will exists currently, it may not in the future, once everybody is on prozac, free will will be abolished. Time travel is impossible, as is traveling through a worm hole unscathed, everything is ripped apart at the atomic level when traveling through a worm hole. It is a window to another universe but I would not recommend going through it any more than a regular window. The only way to make a successful trip to another planet is to have “star drive” i.e. a fusion engine. We had better take care of the one planet we have as I don’t think we will have any other planet to colonize in the near future.

[NotCranky]

[quote=scaredyclassic][quote=Blogstar]Yes, but exercising it very much is not really going to work in lots of areas of life.

For instance, I have 20 Acres with room to put up about a hundred free will advocate families in trailers , if we did that it would be Ruby Ridge all over again.

Almost anywhere you might get boldly free will harm will come to you because of it. March to a different drum is fine up to a point but most people don’t really want to as far as I can tell.[/quote]

see the lego movie. sing EVERYTHING IS AWESOME[/quote]
So the kid’s dad gets a little softer as needed since he was a jerk. The rest of the whole business doesn’t really happen because a kid doesn’t want his dad to glue pieces together and say hands off. Great movie though. Happy song and yes, I am the special and so are you. We still can’t exercise much free will.

I think Free Will was really a bigger thing in the context of religious mental and social slavery. Maybe it is in context of modern state slavery , like political correctness or something. The whole Ferguson is a civil rights issue is bullshit.

I have the Free Will not to believe any political dogma from any side and make a few choices in my life but still more or less under the directions of a lot of other influence.

Outside of how you think Free Will is pretty limited.

We are from planet Duplo and we’re here to rule the world. Even that ending gives truth to the limitations of Free Will, Meet the new boss same as the old boss.

[scaredyclassic]

Well I was under the impression I had free will but my kids were so confident I dont that now I’m uncertainn.

[NotCranky]

[quote=scaredyclassic]Well I was under the impression I had free will but my kids were so confident I dont that now I’m uncertainn.[/quote]
What do yo do with lots of free will or what could you do with it if you were sure you had it? Posting on blogs that’s free will. But in real life. I don’t like pretty much anyone and I have the free will to do that but my wife is mad at me about it. What good does it do me? Free will sucks unless you use it for stuff people like ,so that means it is guided by others free will at most.

[scaredyclassic]

http://www.samharris.org/free-will

gonna read that before winter break so i can come better armed to the next discussion…

[NotCranky]

I think I’ll read “Free Will For Dummies”.

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=Blogstar]I think I’ll read “Free Will For Dummies”.[/quote]

frankly i think that’s been predetermined that you will read that.

[NotCranky]

[quote=scaredyclassic][quote=Blogstar]I think I’ll read “Free Will For Dummies”.[/quote]

frankly i think that’s been predetermined that you will read that.[/quote]
LOL , just for that I won’t .

[CA renter]

In some ways yes, in some ways no. We have free will to some extent, but not completely. Maybe…

Depends on how you want to define it, I suppose. Our brains are wired in particular ways, so there is a very real physiological effect on how we perceive and think about things.

Is everything pre-ordained? I’m not so sure. Perhaps the greater frameworks of our lives are, but we have some control over minor things…or maybe we control some major things, but not minor things. Maybe we’re just passengers along for the ride. That wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing.

[zk]

If you knew, hypothetically, the exact state of the universe, and if the laws of physics were constant, and you knew them all, and if you had a (hypothetical) super computer with unlimited computing power, and you programmed that knowledge of the universe and those laws of physics in that computer, could that computer then predict the future of the universe? Everything from who the next president would be to which of your great grandson’s sperm would fertilize which of who’s egg, to every thought every person would ever have. If not, why not?

Why do we have the thoughts we have and do the things we do? Is there some force outside the laws of physics involved? Sure, the actual process is unimaginably complex. But what else is involved besides the state of the universe and the laws of physics?

Also on the subject:

Say a guy is a murderer. Did he have a choice? What made him the way he is? His environment and his genes? What else is there (not a rhetorical question)? What made him pull the trigger? A hot temper? Where did that come from? An inability to control his temper? Where did that come from? Selfishness? Where did that come from? An inability to empathize? Where did that come from? An inability to control himself in general? Where did that come from? What could have made him more able to control himself? Why didn’t he have it? It’s one thing to say he was weak. It’s another completely to figure out why he was weak and ask whether he had control of that. Sure, let’s say he was weak (-minded). What made him that way? Did he have control over what would or wouldn’t make him not weak? If he did have control over what would make him not weak, why didn’t he exercise that control? What would have made him exercise that control? More empathy? More concern for the law? More concern for society? Why didn’t he have those things? What, besides his genes and his environment, made him who he is? You can’t change your genes. And you can’t change your environment. (Things you have control over and change aren’t your “environment.” Maybe they are after you change them, but now we’re back to questions related to the original questions: Why did he or didn’t he change his environment and why did he change it the way he did?)

So, (and I’m not saying this is the case, I’m saying “if”) if what determines who you are and what you do is your genes and your environment, and you don’t have control over your genes or your environment, do you have any control over what you do? Do you have free will? Sure, I can decide right now to forget this post and do something else. You can decide to stop reading it. We’ll both decide one way or the other. But why? Does the fact that we can make either decision necessarily mean that that decision wasn’t predetermined?

BTW, I’m not suggesting that if a murderer or any other criminal has or doesn’t have true control over whether he commits a crime or not that he shouldn’t be punished. Punishment is necessary as a deterrent. Some people would be (are) swayed from crimes by threat of punishment. Also, society needs to be protected from criminals, sometimes by incarceration. Is it unfair to punish somebody for something he was predetermined to have no control over? Probably. But that doesn’t make it any less necessary. It’s also not fair that some people are born in war-torn, famine-ravaged countries and some are born in wealthy, healthy countries. It’s not fair that some people are born good-looking, socially brilliant, energetic and smart, while some are born ugly, socially inept, sluggish and stupid. If a guy is a murderer, a loser, a mean and very unlikeable person, should we feel sorry for him? I think we should (assuming he’s unhappy, which isn’t always the case). I think we should feel sorry for him every bit as much as we feel sorry for the person who was born in Somalia or the person who is ugly, inept, sluggish and stupid (assuming they’re unhappy, which isn’t always the case). Should we also punish the murderer? I think we must.

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=zk]If you knew, hypothetically, the exact state of the universe, and if the laws of physics were constant, and you knew them all, and if you had a (hypothetical) super computer with unlimited computing power, and you programmed that knowledge of the universe and those laws of physics in that computer, could that computer then predict the future of the universe? Everything from who the next president would be to which of your great grandson’s sperm would fertilize which of who’s egg, to every thought every person would ever have. If not, why not?

Why do we have the thoughts we have and do the things we do? Is there some force outside the laws of physics involved? Sure, the actual process is unimaginably complex. But what else is involved besides the state of the universe and the laws of physics?

Also on the subject:

Say a guy is a murderer. Did he have a choice? What made him the way he is? His environment and his genes? What else is there (not a rhetorical question)? What made him pull the trigger? A hot temper? Where did that come from? An inability to control his temper? Where did that come from? Selfishness? Where did that come from? An inability to empathize? Where did that come from? An inability to control himself in general? Where did that come from? What could have made him more able to control himself? Why didn’t he have it? It’s one thing to say he was weak. It’s another completely to figure out why he was weak and ask whether he had control of that. Sure, let’s say he was weak (-minded). What made him that way? Did he have control over what would or wouldn’t make him not weak? If he did have control over what would make him not weak, why didn’t he exercise that control? What would have made him exercise that control? More empathy? More concern for the law? More concern for society? Why didn’t he have those things? What, besides his genes and his environment, made him who he is? You can’t change your genes. And you can’t change your environment. (Things you have control over and change aren’t your “environment.” Maybe they are after you change them, but now we’re back to questions related to the original questions: Why did he or didn’t he change his environment and why did he change it the way he did?)

So, (and I’m not saying this is the case, I’m saying “if”) if what determines who you are and what you do is your genes and your environment, and you don’t have control over your genes or your environment, do you have any control over what you do? Do you have free will? Sure, I can decide right now to forget this post and do something else. You can decide to stop reading it. We’ll both decide one way or the other. But why? Does the fact that we can make either decision necessarily mean that that decision wasn’t predetermined?

BTW, I’m not suggesting that if a murderer or any other criminal has or doesn’t have true control over whether he commits a crime or not that he shouldn’t be punished. Punishment is necessary as a deterrent. Some people would be (are) swayed from crimes by threat of punishment. Also, society needs to be protected from criminals, sometimes by incarceration. Is it unfair to punish somebody for something he was predetermined to have no control over? Probably. But that doesn’t make it any less necessary. It’s also not fair that some people are born in war-torn, famine-ravaged countries and some are born in wealthy, healthy countries. It’s not fair that some people are born good-looking, socially brilliant, energetic and smart, while some are born ugly, socially inept, sluggish and stupid. If a guy is a murderer, a loser, a mean and very unlikeable person, should we feel sorry for him? I think we should (assuming he’s unhappy, which isn’t always the case). I think we should feel sorry for him every bit as much as we feel sorry for the person who was born in Somalia or the person who is ugly, inept, sluggish and stupid (assuming they’re unhappy, which isn’t always the case). Should we also punish the murderer? I think we must.[/quote]

Yeah but. Um. It feels choicey.

[Author]

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