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no_such_reality.
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May 8, 2015 at 9:52 PM #786033May 8, 2015 at 10:11 PM #786034
scaredyclassic
Participant[quote=flu]Punk cop…
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/08/us/delaware-police-kick-video/index.html%5B/quote%5D
That ones pretty damned cold. On the bright side he just broke the guys jaw for no reason. Didn’t kill him. No deadly harm, no foul.
If you were that defendant would you ever trust any cop ever again?
Probably not.
May 8, 2015 at 11:23 PM #786036CA renter
Participant[quote=scaredyclassic]
The “ignoring medical complaints usually works out until it doesn’t” and is “technically” wrong comment seems coldly utilitarian. once youre in custody, for a short or long time, you’re at the mercy of the system and its players.
some small percentage of people may be actually innocent, a larger percentage overcharged, and some guilty, obviously, with each group potentially being a malingerer with a complaint…but everyone is dependent on the police to address medical needs. They have a duty to provide care, like a lifeguard has a duty to rescue, or a teacher has a duty to his charges…
cops obviously arent doctors, and probably presume virtually everyone is malingering or exaggerating symptoms to some degree, unless they’re visibly in shock or have juicy visible wounds. But if a cop is going to play doctor, and make a medical judgment, hey this ones a faker, then , well, they’re violating the law, by practicing medicine without a license, and open themselves up to all kind of liability.,
many hate the idea that inmates of any stripe get medical care at all, since those on the outside who havent been accused get no free medical care. but thats part of the cost of running a system of mass incarceration that we have. the medical bills are going to be high. For the police to “screen” complaints is essentially saying, let the police practice medicine without a license, be our gatekeeper, like some cop/nurse practitioner.
on the statistically inevitable times when they get it wrong, them it seems fair to hold their feet to the fire, civilly and criminally, for when their illegal medical practice goes haywire. feel free to play doctor, mr and madame constable, but dont be surprised if the community you serve finds your errors to be the result of a depraved indifference to human life when you’re judgment is so dumb it results in someones swift demise.
of course, if it were your kid who died in custody because he had a knife on him, after voicing complaint of some internal injury to the police, the heartlessness of a lack of medical treatment would not seem part of the cost of doing business. it would seem absolutely sick and depraved on the part of the police.
imagine your son was writing in pain on the floor of that van, in his death throes, pleading for his life, feeling the a pain tantamount to torture, as the police took him for their trademark rough ride, looking back in satsifaction as his frail sweaty body bounced on the cold metal floor of the van, causing his final departure from this earth, where he would never again be held in your arms, his life cut short so that he would never marry, you would never see grandchildren, you would never hear his laugh…well, you might continue to feel as you do…
if you could say a few final words to him as he lay dying on the cold metal floor, would you say, hey dont do the crime {no matter how trivial) if youre cant do the time or also are not willing to possibly die at the hand s of the police…would you say “hey, shit happens”……. or would you be banging on the door of that truck, trying desperately to catch the attention fo the police, just as your son was doing in his final death throes, . And at that moment, perhaps you would realize, hey, those are actual beloved, precious, irreplaceable HUMAN BEINGS the police are taking into custody…not meat to be taken to the slaughterhouse….
these are our neighbors, our beloved children, our fellow countrymen…it doesnt seem that way…we as a nation have come to think of them as human trash…but they are not…
i know in my heart that cold utilitarianism would be out the window if it was one of yours in that van.[/quote]
Can’t disagree with your summation there, scaredy, but there is more to the story, as well. Freddie Gray had a long criminal history…
http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/freddiegray.asp
(using snopes so that people don’t claim this is made up)
It’s very likely that the cops knew him, and possibly knew him pretty well. He wasn’t arrested for just for having a knife. When the cops looked at him, he ran, so they pursued him. When they finally caught up with him, he was found to have a knife that may or may not have been legal.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/06/us/freddie-gray-knife/
The cops had reason to believe that he had just committed a crime, or was in the process of doing so, or was planning to commit a crime in the near future (a reasonable assumption since he ran as soon as he saw them looking at him).
From everything I have read and heard, these cops were not guilty of severely injuring/killing him “for sport,” nor were they showing reckless disregard for his life; but I would agree that they probably viewed him differently than they would their own children. Many people would view him that way, IMO, including myself.
I’m going to get a lot of flack for saying this, but having had altercations with violent criminals in the past, I most certainly DO view them as different from and less worthy of compassion than decent, law-abiding people who never seek to harm others. Here comes the real zinger…yes, if my children were criminals who preyed on innocent people, I would view them differently, too. I would indeed be very sad if bad things happened to them, but if they brought it on themselves, there would be far less compassion than if they were innocent victims. I would be far more angry with my kid for the end result than I would be with the cops.
If I have to choose between showing mercy for criminals who have no regard for innocent people vs. cops who show little/no regard for criminals, I will come down on the side of cops every single time. Of course, I do hope that cops use discretion and maintain their composure when dealing with suspects and criminals, but I also understand that they can make mistakes, and that they are dealing with the dark underbelly of human society, which will definitely cloud their perspective.
Not saying that they were right in this case — as noted, they had violated some of their own rules — just that I’m not going to jump on the politically correct bandwagon in wanting to burn all cops at the stake if they make some mistakes. Yes, some additional training is in order, but people need to understand the volatile, fast-paced, dangerous conditions that cops have to work in day-in and day-out.
Please watch this video of a civil rights activist who took part in role-playing some “use of force” scenarios with police. He says it was eye-opening, and I think that most people would agree if they had to spend just a single day in situations where their lives were literally on the line, and where split-second decisions mean the difference between life and death.
And, because I know that many posters still haven’t seen it, here’s a real-life example of a cop shooting someone who is “surrendering” and putting down his weapon:
The last two links are a **must see** if anyone intends to engage in a debate about use of force.
May 8, 2015 at 11:42 PM #786040spdrun
ParticipantDuring the time that Freddie Gray was in the paddy wagon and they were accused of driving like maniacs, no one’s life was in danger other than Gray’s. The issue isn’t the arrest as much as the possibility of them carrying out an illegal “punishment”, resulting in Gray’s death.
They have a history of doing that. Not only to career crooks like Gray (who was more of a small-time dealer and thief than a violent hardened crim), but also to university librarians who filmed the cops responding to a noise complaint and may have displayed some attitude.
May 9, 2015 at 4:23 AM #786042Participant[quote=spdrun]During the time that Freddie Gray was in the paddy wagon and they were accused of driving like maniacs, no one’s life was in danger other than Gray’s. The issue isn’t the arrest as much as the possibility of them carrying out an illegal “punishment”, resulting in Gray’s death.
They have a history of doing that. Not only to career crooks like Gray (who was more of a small-time dealer and thief than a violent hardened crim), but also to university librarians who filmed the cops responding to a noise complaint and may have displayed some attitude.[/quote]
Yes, I’ve seen those reports about other cases. If they really did do that, then they deserve to go to jail for a long time. No dispute there at all. But the accusations of “driving to kill/injure” sound more like conjecture vs. fact. Yes, they did seem to take a long route to get to the jail, and they will definitely have to account for that, but it still doesn’t mean that they were driving dangerously in order to “punish” Freddie “for sport” (but I am keeping an open mind because the circuitous route is odd).
It just doesn’t sound like they have evidence that the driver did this. It seems more plausible that the cop(s) injured him when they were arresting him.
Look at this video where they were taking him to the van. It looks as though his legs are not working properly, IMO. And based on the statements of witnesses who described how he was taken down, it sounds very reasonable that he was injured during the take-down/arrest.
Listen to how he describes how they had him positioned…
http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2015/05/05/ac-dnt-marquez-kevin-moore-shot-video-of-freddie-gray.cnn
——–
To me, the question is whether or not they knew that he was severely injured and then chose not to get medical help, or if they simply didn’t know. IMHO, the biggest problems for the cops are:
1. Not getting help when Freddie was claiming to be injured. It might be helpful to know if this was Freddie’s M.O., too…if he often claimed to be injured or hurt during arrest when he was perfectly healthy, in reality (some people do this on a regular basis), it might explain why some cops who are familiar with the suspects might hesitate to call for medical assistance). Still, they should have called the paramedics.
2. Not securing him in the van.
May 9, 2015 at 7:23 AM #786043Anonymous
Guest[quote=CA renter]
1. Not getting help when Freddie was claiming to be injured. It might be helpful to know if this was Freddie’s M.O., too…if he often claimed to be injured or hurt during arrest when he was perfectly healthy, in reality (some people do this on a regular basis), it might explain why some cops who are familiar with the suspects might hesitate to call for medical assistance). Still, they should have called the paramedics.[/quote]It does not matter one bit if the cops “knew” the suspect or if he had a pattern of claiming to be injured. If he claimed to be injured they should have called for medical help.
(Of course what goes right over your head is the fact that they may have “known” him because of a history of arresting him when he committed no crime, as was the case in this incident.)
The officers’ deliberate decision not to seek medical help is a crime, period.
[quote]2. Not securing him in the van.[/quote]
That’s easy to explain: The game isn’t any fun if the ball can’t bounce.
Why is it so difficult for you to understand that when cops commit crimes, they are criminals and should prosecuted as such?
May 9, 2015 at 9:21 AM #786046Participantpolice work is not as dangerous as being black male.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/blake-fleetwood/how-dangerous-is-police-w_b_6373798.html
May 9, 2015 at 1:47 PM #786050FlyerInHi
Guest[quote=CA renter]just that I’m not going to jump on the politically correct bandwagon in wanting to burn all cops at the stake if they make some mistakes. Yes, some additional training is in order, but people need to understand the volatile, fast-paced, dangerous conditions that cops have to work in day-in and day-out.
[/quote]Here’s another view.
Why not burn the cops to make examples and to state that our civilized society will not countenance such behavior.
We punish criminals to make example out of them. Why not do the same for criminals who are cops?
Some cops might become collateral damage, but so what? That’s the hard reality that you talk about.
You may argue that cops protect us, and that we need to give them leeway and broad discretion to act to protect us. But I believe that cops who mete out cop justice endanger the balance of our system. They are the fuel that cause upheaval in society. So burn them to achieve peace and stability. Oh well, collateral damage.
May 9, 2015 at 4:52 PM #786052njtosd
Participant[quote=CA renter]
If I have to choose between showing mercy for criminals who have no regard for innocent people vs. cops who show little/no regard for criminals, I will come down on the side of cops every single time. Of course, I do hope that cops use discretion and maintain their composure when dealing with suspects and criminals, but I also understand that they can make mistakes, and that they are dealing with the dark underbelly of human society, which will definitely cloud their perspective.
[/quote]
CA Renter – you seem sweetly unaware that people who like pushing others around (or worse) are disproportionately attracted to positions of authority. (Look at the history of the BTK killer, for example, or the ongoing issues with security guards). The more benefit of the doubt that you give them, the more attracted the bad actors are going to be. We want it to be very clear that being a police officer is not a license to play fast and loose with other people’s Constitutional rights.
And just to be clear, I don’t think all police officers are bad. I also don’t think all bartenders are alcoholics, but it has a certain appeal . . .May 9, 2015 at 6:27 PM #786053Participantnot sure if cops are more likely to be sociopaths, but come on, a cop is more likely than average to think violence is a reaosnable solution to a problem. i think that’s common sense.
they are more likely to beat their wives, for instance…
is it the stress of their job that makes them beaters…or are beaters more likely attracted to that line of work?
i think a cop is justa tool, like an engineer, to achieve an end. dont let the tool think it is running the show. the tool must not overestimate its ability to determine what the big picture is…
May 10, 2015 at 8:26 AM #786063GuestAn ordinary family man charging his electric car in a public space provided specifically for that purpose.
Beaten and pepper sprayed.
A civilized society must enforce it’s laws.
Violent criminals must be prosecuted and sentenced to prison.
The victim has a beautiful family. I hope they can find peace on this Mothers Day.
May 10, 2015 at 8:59 AM #786064Participant[quote=harvey]http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Father-of-Four-Claims-Santa-Monica-Police-Made-Rough-Arrest-303145441.html
An ordinary family man charging his electric car in a public space provided specifically for that purpose.
Beaten and pepper sprayed.
A civilized society must enforce it’s laws.
Violent criminals must be prosecuted and sentenced to prison.
The victim has a beautiful family. I hope they can find peace on this Mothers Day.[/quote]
on the other hand, here, taking the caR position, he did refuse to identify himself to the police when asked. The police couldnt know whether or not they were dealing with a potentially violent criminal …he couldve been out on bail for murder, for all the cops knew. He was asserting what he believed to be his right to not produce his identification because in his mind (probbaly correctly) he hadnt committed a crime. But the police did not know that. He was int he park just minutes before “closing time”, so he was on the verge of committing a crime; being out too late int he park. it’s almost an attempt to vioalte that city ordinance of being out too late int he park…. had he not exited the park within just four minutes, he would have been in violation of the law. Therefore, since he was in the park almost too late, and was of a certain sex and age and perhaps race, and was noncompliant with office commands to provide identification, the officers could use their collective experience, common sense, streets smarts, spidey sense and intuition, to say, this person might very well be a dangerous criminal, and they could use reaosnable force to get him into submission, including throwing him to the ground and pepper spraying him, because he was obstructing their investigation.
which makes one wonder; if the police ask you for your identification, and you’ve done nothing wrong, do you have to give them your id?
sounds like a simple question, right?
the answer is actually unclear.
bottom line: maybe technically legally yes you can refuse to give id, but its a dopey maneuver and for practical reality, its dumb to refuse,and may very well result in getting beaten and pepper sprayed. Assuming you are trying to avoid police escalation resulting in potentially severe injury for no reason, which is really the smartest way to negotiate through the situation, , just produce your license, assuming youve done nothing wrong.
May 10, 2015 at 9:20 AM #786065GuestPoint taken.
I just don’t understand what it’s like to be a cop.
If I had to confront people plugging in their smart cars, day after day, I’d probably be pushed over the edge as well.
So a few honest hard working people experience pain and trauma that will burden them for years?
The occasional kick in the face and broken jaw is a small price to pay for the comfort of knowing we are safe from violent criminals.
May 10, 2015 at 10:09 AM #786066Participantscaredyclassic — I hope the Santa Monica “hero” gets hit by a bus and ends up a quadriplegic, sucking his supper through a straw. One less violent asshole on the streets, telling people what to do. And hope the victim ends up owning part of the city of Santa Monica, so to speak.
What likely happened was that he saw a Black guy (yep, victim was Black, big surprise) and ass-u-me-d that he was likely up to no good. The park closing in 5 min was just an excuse to check his papers and run him for warrants. If this is appropriate behavior, why don’t they just stop everyone and run them for warrants? That would get the violent felons off the street, per CAr’s line of thinking, so it must be a good idea. Right? Right.
Thing is, cop brutality is dependent on compliance of the public. If everyone refused to show ID to every truffle-sniffer who asked, they couldn’t beat everyone up. Fundamentally, what we need is a less law-abiding society who doesn’t see cops as post-9/11 heroes, just as government functionaries. No better or worse than armed DMV employees. The problem is that 95% of the public has been conditioned to see them as heroes, so they’ve become uppity. Spoiled and used to obsequious respect from the “law abiding” public.
May 10, 2015 at 10:35 AM #786067SK in CV
ParticipantWell that wins the award for the most disgusting thing I’ve read today.
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