OT: Democide and the 2nd Amendment

[paramount]

http://youtu.be/kgCemznb6Lc

(give it 45 seconds…)

[zk]

A video that would only appeal to the angriest, most paranoid among us. Ridiculously biased (Obama and drone attacks? Please. They weren’t complaining when Bush was killing innocent people). Appealing to emotion. Paranoid (they think 9/11 was democide). Etcetera. Lame.

Really, anyone that thinks our government was involved in 9/11 just cannot be taken seriously.

[enron_by_the_sea]

[quote=zk]A video that would only appeal to the angriest, most paranoid among us. Ridiculously biased (Obama and drone attacks? Please. They weren’t complaining when Bush was killing innocent people). Appealing to emotion. Paranoid (they think 9/11 was democide). Etcetera. Lame.

Really, anyone that thinks our government was involved in 9/11 just cannot be taken seriously.[/quote]

Please don’t discourage. Sometimes it is helpful to know which side is full of lunatics.

[paramount]

[quote=zk](Obama and drone attacks? Please. They weren’t complaining when Bush was killing innocent people). [/quote]

“Compare Mr. Obama’s use of drone strikes with that of his predecessor. During the Bush administration, there was an American drone attack in Pakistan every 43 days; during the first two years of the Obama administration, there was a drone strike there every four days.[46]”

—Peter Bergen, April 2012, CNN National Security Analyst

[zk]

[quote=paramount][quote=zk](Obama and drone attacks? Please. They weren’t complaining when Bush was killing innocent people). [/quote]

“Compare Mr. Obama’s use of drone strikes with that of his predecessor. During the Bush administration, there was an American drone attack in Pakistan every 43 days; during the first two years of the Obama administration, there was a drone strike there every four days.[46]”

—Peter Bergen, April 2012, CNN National Security Analyst[/quote]

It’s not the method that counts. To conclude from the fact that Obama used drones more often than Bush that Obama was engaging in Democide more than Bush was is ludicrous.

[paramount]

[quote=zk]

It’s not the method that counts. To conclude from the fact that Obama used drones more often than Bush that Obama was engaging in Democide more than Bush was is ludicrous.[/quote]

I don’t think it would be ludicrous, but the video doesn’t attempt to make that comparison nor do I.

The main point of the video is IMO: Gov’t’s have killed over 290 million (excluding war) in roughly the last 100 years.

[CA renter]

[quote=zk]A video that would only appeal to the angriest, most paranoid among us. Ridiculously biased (Obama and drone attacks? Please. They weren’t complaining when Bush was killing innocent people). Appealing to emotion. Paranoid (they think 9/11 was democide). Etcetera. Lame.

Really, anyone that thinks our government was involved in 9/11 just cannot be taken seriously.[/quote]

Playing devil’s advocate here…what proof do you have that the govt wasn’t involved in 9/11? Do you believe that the U.S. government is altruistic, and that they are “defending liberty and freedom” when declaring wars on other people or when they claim the right to spy on U.S. citizens and/or detain them indefinitely (here or overseas) without a trial? Do you think the U.S. government has never killed American citizens who might have posed a threat to certain powerful people (both within and outside of the govt)?

Do you really think that all of the people who believe there was something strange about that whole incident are crazy “conspiracy theorists”?

How about these people?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architects_%26_Engineers_for_9/11_Truth

Do you believe that the 30,000 drones scheduled to fly over U.S. airspace within the next decade are there “for our own good”?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-10-09/uncle-sam-prepares-unleash-30000-drones-over-america-public-safety

Do you believe that this data center — capable of storing every bit of multiple years’ worth of electronic communications — is being built “for our own good”?

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/

Do you think the TSA’s screening of all manner of Americans — elderly women and children, included — is being done “for out own good,” or might they be getting us accustomed to being regularly physically violated and “screened” by government officials?

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/tsa-335352-agent-rights.html

Anyone who thinks that our government isn’t willing or capable of violating our rights or doing any harm to us is frighteningly naive.

And while it’s difficult to fight a well-armed force with hand weapons, it’s not impossible. Look to Iraq or Afghanistan to see how much trouble a poorly-armed, but fairly large, population is able to cause a major fighting force when they feel they are fighting for a just cause.

[zk]

[quote=paramount][quote=zk]

It’s not the method that counts. To conclude from the fact that Obama used drones more often than Bush that Obama was engaging in Democide more than Bush was is ludicrous.[/quote]

I don’t think it would be ludicrous, but the video doesn’t attempt to make that comparison nor do I.

The main point of the video is IMO: Gov’t’s have killed over 290 million (excluding war) in roughly the last 100 years.[/quote]

The video doesn’t directly make that point, you’re correct. My point was the video is biased, partly based on its complaining about Obama while not about Bush. Although, really, that it’s biased isn’t important. I think the complaining about Obama and not Bush is just a sales tactic. Right wingers have been brainwashed into hating Obama since before he took office. Throw a jab at him in your video, and they’re more likely to pump their fists, drink the koolaid, and sing along.

So governments have killed a lot of people. And you extend that to mean that you can never trust any government? People have killed a lot of people. Do you do the same with people? Do you not trust any people?

[blahblahblah]

[quote=zk]
The video doesn’t directly make that point, you’re correct. My point was the video is biased, partly based on its complaining about Obama while not about Bush. Although, really, that it’s biased isn’t important. I think the complaining about Obama and not Bush is just a sales tactic. Right wingers have been brainwashed into hating Obama since before he took office. Throw a jab at him in your video, and they’re more likely to pump their fists, drink the koolaid, and sing along.[/quote]

You have no idea who produced this video, do you? During the last administration they were called “left-wing loonies” as they were 100% against all of the Bush wars. And before that they were “right wing crazies” again because they were against Clinton’s air wars in Iraq and Yugoslavia. Disagree with them all you want, call ’em crazy or label them tin-foil-hat conspiracy theorists or fearmongers, but to call them “right-wing” is simply wrong.

Rolling Stone did a piece on these guys in 2011, it’s a pretty good read.

[zk]

[quote=CONCHO]
You have no idea who produced this video, do you? During the last administration they were called “left-wing loonies” as they were 100% against all of the Bush wars. And before that they were “right wing crazies” again because they were against Clinton’s air wars in Iraq and Yugoslavia. Disagree with them all you want, call ’em crazy or label them tin-foil-hat conspiracy theorists or fearmongers, but to call them “right-wing” is simply wrong.

Rolling Stone did a piece on these guys in 2011, it’s a pretty good read.[/quote]

You’re correct, I don’t know who produced this video. I’ll take your word for it. In any case, my point, as I said, wasn’t that its bias was important, but that the “Obama kills innocent people with drones” part of the video was meant to sell it to right wingers. Regardless of who produced it.

[zk]

[quote=CA renter]
Playing devil’s advocate here…what proof do you have that the govt wasn’t involved in 9/11? Do you believe that the U.S. government is altruistic, and that they are “defending liberty and freedom” when declaring wars on other people or when they claim the right to spy on U.S. citizens and/or detain them indefinitely (here or overseas) without a trial? Do you think the U.S. government has never killed American citizens who might have posed a threat to certain powerful people (both within and outside of the govt)? [/quote]
Proof that they weren’t involved? The same proof that there are no aliens controlling your mind. Are there aliens controlling your mind? No? What proof do you have?
[quote=CA renter]

Do you really think that all of the people who believe there was something strange about that whole incident are crazy “conspiracy theorists”?

How about these people?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architects_%26_Engineers_for_9/11_Truth%5B/quote%5D
Yes, I believe they’re conspiracy theorists and can’t be taken seriously. Just because you’re an engineer or an architect doesn’t mean you’re not susceptible to paranoia.
[quote=CA renter]
Do you believe that the 30,000 drones scheduled to fly over U.S. airspace within the next decade are there “for our own good”?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-10-09/uncle-sam-prepares-unleash-30000-drones-over-america-public-safety%5B/quote%5D
I think that they’re intended to be used for homeland security. Do you think the original intent is homeland security and you’re afraid they’ll eventually be used for something else? Or do you think that, right now, the intent is to somehow take away your liberty? These are not rhetorical questions; I think your answers are important to this discussion.

[quote=CA renter]
Do you believe that this data center — capable of storing every bit of multiple years’ worth of electronic communications — is being built “for our own good”?

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/%5B/quote%5D
Same answer (and questions) as with the drones.
[quote=CA renter]

Do you think the TSA’s screening of all manner of Americans — elderly women and children, included — is being done “for out own good,” or might they be getting us accustomed to being regularly physically violated and “screened” by government officials?

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/tsa-335352-agent-rights.html%5B/quote%5D
Getting us “used to being …violated and screened?” I think it’s highly unlikely that anyone in that field is thinking that far ahead. And I think it’s paranoid to see the TSA screen people in a way that you don’t like and think that they’re “preparing” us for worse.
[quote=CA renter]
Anyone who thinks that our government isn’t willing or capable of violating our rights or doing any harm to us is frighteningly naive. [/quote]
Sure, a person thinks our government isn’t willing or capable of violating our rights at all or doing any harm is naïve. Sure, the government is capable of violating our rights and doing harm. But I’d say it’s usually in small and isolated cases. I think anyone who thinks that there are vast conspiracies perpetrated by the U.S. government against the U.S. people is paranoid.
[quote=CA renter]
And while it’s difficult to fight a well-armed force with hand weapons, it’s not impossible. Look to Iraq or Afghanistan to see how much trouble a poorly-armed, but fairly large, population is able to cause a major fighting force when they feel they are fighting for a just cause.[/quote]
If fighting against government tyranny is really why we’re allowing people to have guns, the whole debate changes. It’s a completely different thing from “we should be allowed to have guns so we can hunt and shoot target practice and defend our homes against intruders.” Gun advocates use a scattershot method and attack on all fronts. But, really, defending against government tyranny and those other uses are completely different subjects. If we’re defending against government tyranny, do we need a .38 under our pillow? No. We need organized, secure, large collections of automatic weapons and assault rifles. If you think that sort of thing would work. Which I don’t, but which is at least debatable. Key word there is secure.

[scaredyclassic]

It might be best to start teaching schoolkids now how to create IEDs to disable govt vehicles approaching their homes per the 2nd amendment. why isn’t that in the curriculum?

[zk]

[quote=squat300]It might be best to start teaching schoolkids now how to create IEDs to disable govt vehicles approaching their homes per the 2nd amendment. why isn’t that in the curriculum?[/quote]

You snark. But I wouldn’t doubt that it is in some home-school curricula.

[paramount]

[quote=zk]
Just because you’re an engineer or an architect doesn’t mean you’re not susceptible to paranoia.
[/quote]

Or even president…

[paramount]

[quote=zk]
I think that they’re intended to be used for homeland security. Do you think the original intent is homeland security and you’re afraid they’ll eventually be used for something else? Or do you think that, right now, the intent is to somehow take away your liberty? These are not rhetorical questions; I think your answers are important to this discussion.

[/quote]

Considering the current eroded state of our “rights”, using drones under the broad terms/guise of “homeland/national security” would/could certainly go a long way in further eroding whatever rights we do have left.

[Author]

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