OT: Best Discussion yet on Obamacare IMO: Nixon

[EconProf]

You need to look at the quality of doctors, not just the quantity. Would you rather be treated by an Uzbekistani doctor in a hospital in Uzbekistan, or an American doctor in America?

[no_such_reality]

[quote=Jazzman][quote=EconProf]I’m surprised so many people on this site want to go whole hog into single payer. I guess the government has done such a good job rolling out Obamacare, they should now take over 100% of health care.[/quote]
Government run health care systems are unwieldy, bureaucratic, inefficient, and burden to the tax payer. Privately run health care is ruthless, discriminatory, and financially ruinous. I don’t know about you, but I’d prefer to put up with government bureaucracy, than be turfed out onto the street completely destitute.[/quote]

Even without Obamacare, you wouldn’t be able to keep your insurance for long, companies are simply getting priced out. Once you’re not part of a corporate, no questions ask coverage, your ability to carry coverage is highly dispersed. You end up with a lot of exclusions and basically catastrophic coverage that still costs a sizeable amount and you basically front the first $10,000. And that’s just for you. You need to carry a separate plan for your family.

And there isn’t a fix for insurance. Anything that limits their ability to exclude people, would actually result in higher increases than the obamacare plans. At least on the Obamacare, they know they’re getting to spread it across some of the healthy people.

Take a good look at what your company plan is really costing a month for the company to provide.

[Jazzman]

I can’t even get catastrophic cover at the moment. I’m healthy and have no pre-existing conditions. Not only that but I had to go through very extensive tests. They just didn’t want to cover me from the start so decided to waste my time and money instead. I’m glad they didn’t offer me cover because I see now a claim would have been a nightmare.

[all]

[quote=EconProf]You need to look at the quality of doctors, not just the quantity. Would you rather be treated by an Uzbekistani doctor in a hospital in Uzbekistan, or an American doctor in America?[/quote]

I don’t think primary care physicians in Uzbekistan are lesser doctors than their US counterparts. They likely cannot order an MRI for you, though. But I was thinking about the cost and ease of access. Having more trained professionals would help with both.

[joec]

[quote=no_such_reality]

Even without Obamacare, you wouldn’t be able to keep your insurance for long, companies are simply getting priced out. Once you’re not part of a corporate, no questions ask coverage, your ability to carry coverage is highly dispersed. You end up with a lot of exclusions and basically catastrophic coverage that still costs a sizeable amount and you basically front the first $10,000. And that’s just for you. You need to carry a separate plan for your family.

And there isn’t a fix for insurance. Anything that limits their ability to exclude people, would actually result in higher increases than the obamacare plans. At least on the Obamacare, they know they’re getting to spread it across some of the healthy people.

Take a good look at what your company plan is really costing a month for the company to provide.[/quote]

I’ve mentioned it before as well. This is sorta like getting a mortgage or buying a home as a self employed person during the crash in 08-10. It doesn’t matter what my financials were, if it wasn’t a loan they could sell to fannie/freddie, you were completely locked out. I remember telling the mortgage guy what down payment I needed. 50%? 75& 99% They didn’t care since it didn’t fit in their system so they can’t do it no matter how much cash, etc. you were coming in with.

They simply don’t offer certain policies or sometimes, any policies when I searched (eg: Maternity) and that’s sad…or it was extremely crappy of a policy.

Companies are also getting fleeced if you see how much COBRA is when you switch jobs. I think that’s what your company pays for you actually.

So has anyone actually signed up for Obamacare? I’m sorta waiting till they work out the bugs, but I’m going to be calling to cancel my family policies soon…

[joec]

[quote=Jazzman]I can’t even get catastrophic cover at the moment. I’m healthy and have no pre-existing conditions. Not only that but I had to go through very extensive tests. They just didn’t want to cover me from the start so decided to waste my time and money instead. I’m glad they didn’t offer me cover because I see now a claim would have been a nightmare.[/quote]

The scary thing with the previous system was that if you ever participated in those clinical trials or just wanted to test something, even if it was negative, you could’ve been blacklisted I think so it was best to keep your whole medical record as clean as possible even if you didn’t have issues from the tests.

It was downright scary trying to get coverage and you felt like a slave to whatever the insurance companies were charging.

If you have a nice corporate plan, I don’t think many people know what it’s like similar to losing a job and not finding work, etc…

[Jazzman]

[quote=all][quote=EconProf]You need to look at the quality of doctors, not just the quantity. Would you rather be treated by an Uzbekistani doctor in a hospital in Uzbekistan, or an American doctor in America?[/quote]

I don’t think primary care physicians in Uzbekistan are lesser doctors than their US counterparts. They likely cannot order an MRI for you, though. But I was thinking about the cost and ease of access. Having more trained professionals would help with both.[/quote]

You may be right EconProf. Central Asian man with sexually transmitted diseases possibly due to incestuous relationship seeks health care in the US. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCAubW1g7vQ

[ocrenter]

[quote=Jazzman][quote=all][quote=EconProf]You need to look at the quality of doctors, not just the quantity. Would you rather be treated by an Uzbekistani doctor in a hospital in Uzbekistan, or an American doctor in America?[/quote]

I don’t think primary care physicians in Uzbekistan are lesser doctors than their US counterparts. They likely cannot order an MRI for you, though. But I was thinking about the cost and ease of access. Having more trained professionals would help with both.[/quote]

You may be right EconProf. Central Asian man with sexually transmitted diseases possibly due to incestuous relationship seeks health care in the US. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCAubW1g7vQ%5B/quote%5D

LOL!

[ocrenter]

[quote=joec]

Companies are also getting fleeced if you see how much COBRA is when you switch jobs. I think that’s what your company pays for you actually.

[/quote]

This is why it is to our competitive advantage to move the health care burden away from the companies and put it under a single payer monopoly that can regulate cost.

Btw, all of the East Asian developed countries (Japan, S.Korea, Taiwan) enacted universal single payer health coverage under Conservative, Right Wing, Pro-business parties.

[spdrun]

Our right-wingers aren’t pro-business. They’re mosty “pro” promoting themselves and getting attention like 2 yo children.

[Jazzman]

[quote=ocrenter][quote=joec]

Companies are also getting fleeced if you see how much COBRA is when you switch jobs. I think that’s what your company pays for you actually.

[/quote]

This is why it is to our competitive advantage to move the health care burden away from the companies and put it under a single payer monopoly that can regulate cost.

Btw, all of the East Asian developed countries (Japan, S.Korea, Taiwan) enacted universal single payer health coverage under Conservative, Right Wing, Pro-business parties.[/quote]
I have been to Taiwanese hospitals a couple of times. Once for a two day stay for a complete, top-to-toe body check. I don’t remember exactly how much it cost, but I do remember it was a fraction of the cost here. The second time I used a hospital dentist. Excellent service, very effective, and much cheaper. They issue you with an electronic card that has all the data about your visits, health, etc. Fantastic! How did they achieve this? They were not too proud to admit their system was creaky and so went around the world taking the best parts of other healthcare systems to create their own unique system. The result is probably one of the best healthcare systems in the world. A very rational approach.

[ocrenter]

[quote=Jazzman]
I have been to Taiwanese hospitals a couple of times. Once for a two day stay for a complete, top-to-toe body check. I don’t remember exactly how much it cost, but I do remember it was a fraction of the cost here. The second time I used a hospital dentist. Excellent service, very effective, and much cheaper. They issue you with an electronic card that has all the data about your visits, health, etc. Fantastic! How did they achieve this? They were not too proud to admit their system was creaky and so went around the world taking the best parts of other healthcare systems to create their own unique system. The result is probably one of the best healthcare systems in the world. A very rational approach.[/quote]

This is not to say the Taiwanese system is perfect. There’s still a lot of waste intrinsic to the system. For example, doctors and hospitals still over-treat terminal patients to maximize in-hospital stay for the sake of reimbursement. Inpatient stays are also dragged out for the same purpose. There’s also a tendency to over-prescribe due to lack of time with the patient.

But because the Taiwanese National Health Insurance has the power of monopoly, cost is controlled despite the problems above.

[img_assist|nid=17719|title=Taiwan health care cost as % of GDP|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=466|height=327]

here’s the US graph:

[img_assist|nid=17724|title=US health care cost as percentage of GDP|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=466|height=318]

[CA renter]

This is an excellent piece about some of the problems with Obamacare.

——-

“I’m afraid almost all discussions on the left and right regarding the Affordable Care Act (ACA) miss some very basic things. So I hope this email will explain a few economic ideas and put them into perspective for you, whether you’re on the left or right and whether you like Obamacare or not.

Before I do that, though, let me say that I’m a raging capitalist and I’m in favor of universal healthcare coverage. I’m indifferent as to having either (1) a 100% government-guaranteed single-payer system or (2) a 100% private solution where the government guarantees that the poor are fully covered. Each has its pros and cons. For countries like Spain and the UK, a single-payer national system works. (I’ve lived in both countries almost all my life, and their healthcare systems work. The only time I’ve ever paid $250 for an aspirin was in a US hospital.) On the other hand, private solutions work very well for Singapore and Switzerland. So one model is purely public, and it works; and the other is purely private, and it works. There is a lot of demand for healthcare, so you have to ration medical care via price or quantity. That’s basic economics. It is for voters and politicians to decide what they prefer. I’m indifferent to the solution, as long as it is well thought out and implemented and in fact provides universal coverage. The problem is that the ACA takes the worst elements of public and private and fails to provide universal coverage for millions of people.”

http://www.mauldineconomics.com/editorial/outside-the-box-jonathan-tepper-on-obamacare

[ocrenter]

[quote=CA renter]This is an excellent piece about some of the problems with Obamacare.

——-

“I’m afraid almost all discussions on the left and right regarding the Affordable Care Act (ACA) miss some very basic things. So I hope this email will explain a few economic ideas and put them into perspective for you, whether you’re on the left or right and whether you like Obamacare or not.

Before I do that, though, let me say that I’m a raging capitalist and I’m in favor of universal healthcare coverage. I’m indifferent as to having either (1) a 100% government-guaranteed single-payer system or (2) a 100% private solution where the government guarantees that the poor are fully covered. Each has its pros and cons. For countries like Spain and the UK, a single-payer national system works. (I’ve lived in both countries almost all my life, and their healthcare systems work. The only time I’ve ever paid $250 for an aspirin was in a US hospital.) On the other hand, private solutions work very well for Singapore and Switzerland. So one model is purely public, and it works; and the other is purely private, and it works. There is a lot of demand for healthcare, so you have to ration medical care via price or quantity. That’s basic economics. It is for voters and politicians to decide what they prefer. I’m indifferent to the solution, as long as it is well thought out and implemented and in fact provides universal coverage. The problem is that the ACA takes the worst elements of public and private and fails to provide universal coverage for millions of people.”

http://www.mauldineconomics.com/editorial/outside-the-box-jonathan-tepper-on-obamacare%5B/quote%5D

Excellent link, thanks CAR!

This country’s political divide is so f’d up that unfortunately it will likely take another ten years and getting to the edge of the demographic time bomb before anyone is willing to do anything of substance.

Part of the problem is most Americans are so shielded from the outside world that they have zero international prospective on things. That’s how they are able to fall in line with the complete b.s. that single payer equals communism. Never mind that the two countries that are the most Pro-American and most anti-communist in the world, when they came of age economically, choose single payer and are now ahead of the US in life expectancy yet at just 30 percent of our cost.

[Jazzman]

Good find CAR, ditto OCR. Here’s my take on the email:

Socialized (whatever that is supposed to mean) healthcare is not without its problems. I too lived under one for many years. They are a constant political bone of contention.

Obamacare is possibly not working as well as it could, because it’s a half-baked compromise that came about as a result of the usual legislative political deal-making.

I was very happy to see costs have been mentioned as “one of the biggest problems.” They are, I believe, the main problem.

I can confirm the exchanges are poorly represented by insurers here in Hawaii. But there are very few insurers anyway. Healthcare cover, however, is already mandated for employers for every employee.

Very interesting cost statistic regarding the last year of one’s life. I have a health care directive. It says. “If you find me injured and bleeding, kick me perfunctorily (hard) in the head. If you call an ambulance, don’t forget to leave your address so I can forward you the bill.”

[Author]

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