OT: 2012 API came out few days ago

[zk]

[quote=flyer]AN, I completely agree with your comment to the other poster. That’s exactly the way my wife and I felt when we were raising our children.

Whatever “pond” you’re in, my wife and I had parents who were all about living your dreams–not just getting “a job”–and we’ve tried to pass that same philosophy along to our children. We have two who have made it to that point in life, and one to go![/quote]

I’m curious what your take is here, flyer. The article you posted is about the large number of college grads who can’t get jobs in their chosen (often dream) fields, and the article concludes by saying,

“Perhaps your investment in education should go toward learning things you can earn a living at, with intellectual stimulation coming later, when you can afford the indulgence. Otherwise, college can turn out to be a mighty expensive hobby.”

Yet you have encouraged your children to live their dreams rather than focus on getting a job. Clearly you’ve had fantastic success there. (For which you get, from me, congratulations, esteem, and a desire to learn from you). So I’m curious how you would’ve handled it if your kids dreams didn’t involve lucrative, in-demand fields such as business and medicine? What if they wanted to be writers and actors and painters? What if they chased those dreams and ended up barely (or not at all) able to support themselves?

[flyer]

zk, I completely understand your questions.

I should have qualified some of the things I said.

We have always encouraged our kids to live their dreams, but we also made sure they knew from the moment they made their decisions about college, that they also needed to eventually support themselves. (Even though they are aware they will have trust funds, we have never given them the option of relying upon that.)

As the article I shared stated, we made sure (long before we ever read an article like this), that they understood that “college is not a hobby.” Fortunately, their dreams happened to coincide with viable professions.

If, however, someone has a child that is interested in pursuing the arts, or sports, or some other field you feel they may struggle with, and you think they have real talent, versus wishful thinking–there are a couple of options I can think of.

-You could show them the stats with regard to success in the dream professions they want to pursue, so they are aware of their REAL chances of success.

-If, after that, they still choose to move forward, you could let them know that they will need to eventually support themselves, and, as the article stated, you could encourage them to pursue their dreams, while they concurrently pursue a “Plan B” should things not work out.

-OR, you could encourage them to pursue their dreams indefinitely, with no strings attached, as long as you are comfortable supporting them indefinitely–should things not work out.

Please realize these thoughts are just my opinions, and I wouldn’t construe them as advice. I wish you the best!

[Essbee]

Interesting discussion re: practical careers vs pursuing one’s dreams. Lucky for me, my chosen career also happened to be a stable, well-paying one. However, I’m sure that growing up in a very financially limited household instilled in me some a desire for financial stability which made my chosen career more attractive.

We are doing a lot of discussion about the demographics of various neighborhoods, and I think that is important. Another aspect (which bearishgurl alludes to) is that the older neighborhoods (La Jolla, Pt Loma, Clairemont, San Carlos) have a smaller proportion of families with high school age kids than, say, anything in mid-City or Mira Mesa or Scripps Ranch.

I assume that there is therefore more bussing (VEEP program) into these older neighborhood/half-vacant schools than into an overflowing school in a neighborhood full of young families. Even without the neighborhood itself changing, bussing can change the demographics of a school and change the API. Anyone know the % VEEP at various high schools in SDUSD? The city schools website implies “more info coming soon.”

[zk]

[quote=flyer]Please realize these thoughts are just my opinions, and I wouldn’t construe them as advice. I wish you the best![/quote]

I take all advice as opinions and all opinions as opinions. Then form my own opinion.

Anyway, great answers and I appreciate it.

The problem with the “talent” question is (in my opinion) this: In music, painting, acting, and most other arts, talent – even great talent – is rarely enough. You usually need either a lucky break; a forceful, sell yourself, make-it-happen personality/approach; or both (in addition to talent) to make it in those fields. In fact, those things are frequently more important than talent. (All this assumes a huge amount of time and hard work are put into it).

And that makes those fields that much riskier. I suppose if you failed you could say, “well, at least I did what I could to chase my dream, and now I know it wasn’t meant to be.” But I think most people would be more likely to think, “I had talent, I worked hard, I spent lots of time on it, and I couldn’t catch the break I needed. Which is probably not a nice place to be but, like you’ve said, wouldn’t be so bad as long as one had concurrently pursued a “plan b.”

[scaredyclassic]

i cannot recall the title but i was recently perusing a book in a bookstore whicha rgued basically that pursuing passions was a very bad idea, and instead, one shoudl just focus getting very skilled and craftsman like at whatever opportunities presented themselves.

passion is overrated.

competence and skill, underrated.

[flyer]

Agree on many of your points, zk and squat.

IMHO, as long as you can (legally) support yourself, and live life at the level you choose, it really doesn’t matter whether you select your life’s work based upon your passions, or competence and skill–again, as long as you can support yourself.

The problem comes, when the person who chooses their life path is not willing to live with the outcome, and feels they are “entitled” to be supported by others (read parents), for an indefinite period of time, even when they make poor decisions.

Case in point. Several of our friends who did not clearly outline their expectations from their kids prior to college, still have kids in their 20’s and even 30’s, bouncing around all over the place–with no direction in life.

They aren’t happy and their kids aren’t happy–so nobody wins. Sadly, as the article I mentioned noted, this scenario is becoming more and more common, and it’s not working out well.

Of course, outlining college or any other expectations in life does not guarantee success, but it’s definitely a better bet than having a flaky plan or no plan at all–but again, to each his own–as long as you are prepared to live with your decisions for better or worse.

[scaredyclassic]

if i were living the life of my dreams it would be different. i guess i made some decisions back there. i cannot remember.

my dream involved more money and a lot more freedom.

growing up my parents just urged me to be “happy”.

i’ve concluded that that is just dumb for me to try to seek to be happy, and that the only thing to be done is to fulfill duties and hope that some happiness comes from that.

i hope my kids are happy.

or in the alternative, fulfill their dutes.

[NotCranky]

I don’t know, I think maybe kids do have to pursue a life, including living within their means, that is most in line with their personality traits.

I am not so sure why living away from our families is the epitome of success? Couldn’t it, under some circumstances, be cool to have a multi-generational home front? It’s pretty common in Latin America and those people are good. Or should we say, hell we can’t all make it living independently here, so you go to Texas, you go to Bahrain and you go live in a trailer in Hope Arizona? O.K., I understand that is not a scenario any pigg other than me will likely have to contemplate, but in the case it was , teaming up could be better. Is living and dieing with your family against natural law or something? What makes it an abomination?

All I really expect of my kids is that they live within their means ,which could mean do their fair share, take the best care of their health that they can, and be decent people…even hippies can do that.Nobody is going to live a perfect life.

Seems like a lot of parents are in the business of choosing their kid’s standard of living every single day of their lives. Heaven forbid they take the family tradition of achievement and materialism a step backwards.

I doubt my kids will be hippies, but I hope they do things inline with their main positive personality traits. If that means being a mechanic, or a emergency care provider, or a never quite hit the big time entrepreneur, or whatever, it’s their business.

Their standard of living goals and tradeoffs are of their choosing not mine. Doesn’t mean I won’t teach them about possible folly. We are fully engaged in the process of educating them the best we can, with the resources we have, until they are of a mind to begin choosing where to go with their lives. Who really knows in the end though?

[an]

[quote=Blogstar] Seems like a lot of parents are in the business of choosing their kid’s standard of living every single day of their lives. Heaven forbid they take the family tradition of achievement and materialism a step backwards.[/quote]My dad always told me, he’s successful as a parent if I’m better/smarter than he is, if my life is more successful than his. His decisions in life surrounds making my life better than his. I’m following his foot step and I’m giving my kids all the advantages I didn’t have. Hoping that they’ll make good use of those advantages and have more success than I do. Wealth takes time (generations) to build up, unless you’re lucky and blessed like Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. So, I’m building on top of my parents success and hoping my kids will do the same.

[bearishgurl]

I agree with Rus that multi-generational living is okay for some families (ESP those needing “free” day care for young kids and/or help on a farm).

I am also in agreement with flyer that kids need to major in something in college where they can (hopefully quickly) recoup their tuition, fees and effort expended in the form of a salary or wage. When I finally “retire” and “downsize,” I don’t want any kids staying FT with me and/or dumping their kids on me for me to take care of FT. I don’t mind them visiting, even for a week or two but don’t want to support them. I’ve made sacrifices throughout my life for them and they are more well-traveled than I am and have nicer personal things than I do. Since getting hired to a good FT job seems to be slanted towards the young nowadays, THEY should be and are taking advantage of that and moving jobs (for more pay/benefits) when the oppt’y arises.

I coached them NOT to take out student loans or end up as “single parents” but I didn’t have to coach them on what to major in. They ended up in college in a very expensive city to live in (SF – their choice) and learned “the ropes” very quickly, majored in business-related areas and can now support themselves just fine :=]

In addition, they supported themselves throughout college.

My kid who is still in HS is leaning towards majoring in accounting.

I’m also in favor of ROP and trade schools which take <=2 years to get an AS or Certificate, enabling the HS Grad to commence FT work at the age of 19 or 20. College degrees which will not lead to employment are worthless, IMHO, unless the student is using them to get into grad school (ex: poly sci). And borrowing for (very expensive) grad school will undoubtedly ensure the (perpetual) student will be a debt slave during all the years of their lives when they want buy vehicles, buy a home and a have a family. I don't feel there are or will be nearly enough jobs available for all the existing graduate degree-holders, much less those still in the pipeline. At least not jobs which would pay any more than if the same student had just earned an “employable” bachelor’s degree and then went to work.

Barring any special circumstances (ex: death of grown son or daughter who was a parent and/or presence of a handicapped grandchild), I feel there comes a time when a parent deserves to “retire” from “family duties” to just take care of themselves and, if applicable, their spouses. I don’t expect my kids to bounce back to either my home or their father’s home. They love being independent and are enjoying life to the full 🙂

[NotCranky]

[quote=AN][quote=Blogstar] Seems like a lot of parents are in the business of choosing their kid’s standard of living every single day of their lives. Heaven forbid they take the family tradition of achievement and materialism a step backwards.[/quote]My dad always told me, he’s successful as a parent if I’m better/smarter than he is, if my life is more successful than his. His decisions in life surrounds making my life better than his. I’m following his foot step and I’m giving my kids all the advantages I didn’t have. Hoping that they’ll make good use of those advantages and have more success than I do. Wealth takes time (generations) to build up, unless you’re lucky and blessed like Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. So, I’m building on top of my parents success and hoping my kids will do the same.[/quote]

My kids are already each well on the way to being either smarter or better than I will ever be and possibly(hopefully) both. I am not sure who has control of that. I will try for their betterment from where they are at anyway. I just don’t philosophically tie that to abject wealth as much as you do.

[an]

[quote=Blogstar]My kids are already each well on the way to being either smarter or better than I will ever be and possibly(hopefully) both. I am not sure who has control of that. I will try for their betterment from where they are at anyway. I just don’t philosophically tie that to abject wealth as much as you do.[/quote]
Wealth is only one variable. It’s just that wealth is the one variable with as a parent, you can make the most impact. IQ is out of our control. Same with personality.

[an]

[quote=bearishgurl]I agree with Rus that multi-generational living is okay for some families (ESP those needing “free” day care for young kids and/or help on a farm).[/quote]
It’s not about need but want. If you live in multi-generational household because you need something from the other person, then it probably won’t last too long and you’ll get on each other nerve some how. It’ll only work if 2-3 generations actually want to live together to help improve each other’s lives.

[UCGal]

Interesting twist in this thread.

I think folks here know we have a multi-generational household going at our place… It works for us.. we can help with the care of my invalid father in law, and my kids get more time with their grandparents.

That said – multigenerational living can also be negative. We have a nephew who’s in his 30’s and lives at his parents house. He chose to major in History, got a teaching credential, got a masters… then got his PhD – all in history. With budget cuts he’s taught exactly ONE year. (before he got his PhD) He’s unemployed, is an asshole to his mother, doesn’t help around the house, isn’t willing to get a job since he feels he’s overqualified to work retail or at starbucks. It’s not a good situation. His sense of entitlement could fill several rooms. Fortunately, his siblings are all self supporting and have careers (everything from nursing, to high GS level employee, to working electrical/gaffing). They tell their brother to get a job… it falls on deaf ears. Also unfortunately, his dad totally buys into having his son live at home.

[njtosd]

[quote=bearishgurl]

College degrees which will not lead to employment are worthless, IMHO, unless the student is using them to get into grad school (ex: poly sci). )[/quote]

You never know if you’re going to get into grad school. There are no pre law requirements, so why not major in something like engineering or science just in case the grad plans don’t work? Plus, lawyers with poli sci degrees are a dime a dozen. Have something in your educational resume that is useful (nursing, engineering, accounting, etc.) Another choice is to double major – and one should have a job at the end . . .

[Author]

Posts