only use upfront mortgage brokers (UMB) ?

[Wrangler]

I checked out Mortgage Professor’s website (http://www.mtgprofessor.com/A%20-%20Upfront%20Mortgage%20Brokers/dealing_with_an_upfront_mortgage_broker.htm)

Should one only use UMB?
How do people here shop for mortgages? One can try lendingtree, or some local brokers. What’s the best approach you recommend?

[HLS]

Wrangler,,
What are you looking for ?? I do everything that someone on that list does, and more, and I’m local.

You cannot shop rates. It doesn’t work, but it’s what most people do.
You find someone that you trust to do their best job for you, not someone who lies to you about the lowest rates, that you don’t qualify for, to get you started and then starts jerking you around.

You need your options explained to you so you understand what they are, so you can make a decision that is right for you.

There are honest real estate agents on this board that I am sure have lost out on listings because they told the seller the truth about what their house was worth.
A liar got the listing with a higher value and ended up selling it for less than the truth.
I have lost loans because I have told people the truth too.

Many people falsely believe that they know how to get the best deal, and often just get screwed, esp when buying a car.

Nobody can promise you the cheapest price on earth for anything. Nobody is going to get a loan for free, regardless of what they are told. Higher rates and monthly payments come with free loans. The cost is built in.
That does make sense for some people.

I am upfront with my quotes, and hopefully can get you qualified to close, at a fair fee.
I provide a service. It isn’t rocket science.

If anyone wants to comment on Lending Tree experiences, be my guest.

[Ash Housewares]

Another option similar to Lending Tree is Priceline Mortgage. Just enter some info and watch the banks’ offers come rolling in. I know someone who used this and was very happy with the results, though I didn’t grill them so I don’t know any of the specifics.

[Ash Housewares]

Another option similar to Lending Tree is Priceline Mortgage. Just enter some info and watch the banks’ offers come rolling in. I know someone who used this and was very happy with the results, though I didn’t grill them so I don’t know any of the specifics.

[HLS]

Wrangler,,
What are you looking for ?? I do everything that someone on that list does, and more, and I’m local.

You cannot shop rates. It doesn’t work, but it’s what most people do.
You find someone that you trust to do their best job for you, not someone who lies to you about the lowest rates, that you don’t qualify for, to get you started and then starts jerking you around.

You need your options explained to you so you understand what they are, so you can make a decision that is right for you.

There are honest real estate agents on this board that I am sure have lost out on listings because they told the seller the truth about what their house was worth.
A liar got the listing with a higher value and ended up selling it for less than the truth.
I have lost loans because I have told people the truth too.

Many people falsely believe that they know how to get the best deal, and often just get screwed, esp when buying a car.

Nobody can promise you the cheapest price on earth for anything. Nobody is going to get a loan for free, regardless of what they are told. Higher rates and monthly payments come with free loans. The cost is built in.
That does make sense for some people.

I am upfront with my quotes, and hopefully can get you qualified to close, at a fair fee.
I provide a service. It isn’t rocket science.

If anyone wants to comment on Lending Tree experiences, be my guest.

[pertinazzio]

Wrangler wrote: “Should one only use UMB?” This was a new term to me so I spent a little time on at “Professor Mortgage’s” website. How does one get the best deal on a mortgage? Professor Mortgage seems to think that a UMB is a good idea if you get a good one. And what about the pros’ and cons of paying points for lower rates? How does that work out economically?

Beatus ille qui procul negotiis … paterna rura bobus exercet suis, solutus omni fenore….. Horace

[Raybyrnes]

I would think that the cons are the fact that even if someone is upfront with you it does not mean they have access to the most competitive programs.

This probably becomes more apparent as you move away from a full documentation confomraing loan.

There are a lot of sub-prime bwrs out there who could have qualified for an FHA or CHAFA loan. If I were an upfront mortgage guy who did not have access to these prograams but provided the very best sub-prime loan that you could qualify for than you would have lost out.

If you are going to use lending tree for your loan you might be well served to get a costco card and participate in the rebate that goes along with using their program.

MOre than likely you are going to get routed back to Etrade.

[michael]

I personally don’t see a need for a mortgage broker…

it’s not rocket science… would you like some cheese with that burger? but we have different types of cheese, it can get complicated? Would you like to super-size that? For here or to-go?

[Raybyrnes]

Michael,

I don’t work in the industry but your opinion is pretty short sighted. Yeah if you don’t ahve any welth and you are going for a 30 year fixed there isn’t much need. Put some scratch together, start getting income properties, inherit some real estate that you are looking to cash out and all of a sudden a good broker goes a long way. I would say that hold true for a stock broker, insurance broker, CPA’s etc.

When yoiu don’t have much you don’t have the same need.

[michael]

Raybyrnes,

I don’t know about being short-sighted. I know about value added.

The internal revenue code is complex, CPAs (not tax preparers) provide huge value.

A stockbroker that simply executes trades is pretty worthless also. A Certified Financial Planner, CFP goes beyond executing stock trades and can provide huge value in issues such as estate planning, retirement, taxation and complex asset allocation strategies that involve alternative investments such as structured products, options, managed futures, and hedge funds.

Most insurance brokers push products but there are some very knowledgeable insurance folks working with attorneys that can shed light on issues such as Irrevocable life insurance trusts (ILITs), etc.

Mortgage brokers are mortgage brokers. The math and issues involved are much too simple. Mortgage brokers are useless middlemen.

IMO

[HLS]

Michael,
We aren’t all the same, sorry
I am in the industry and will not disagree with part of what you say.
In ANY commission based industry, any product, commissions breed fraud.

There were plenty of morons doing loans that screwed people beyond even your wildest dreams. The borrowers were taken, hook line and sinker. There are fewer still doing that today, but they are still out there. Often it was from a relative, friend or neighbor. I am not going to defend them in any way. Some people are losing their houses today because of the loans that they are in.

To me, providing a mortgage is a service. YOU may know what you want or at least think that you know what you want. Many that stand to make money from a borrower may know less than they do, but they know where their commission comes from.

I give people the best rates that I can and tell people what my service is going to cost them. I don’t care if they want an ARM, interest only, 30 YR or 40 Yr fixed, none of it changes my fee or what I net.

Most people are overwhelmed and stressed out throughout the process. I can solve that. Even if it costs them a few thousand dollars to get straight honest advice about a $500,000 transaction, it is worth it to them. It may not even cost that.

Retail banks have wholesale rates and retail rates. When you walk in a branch, you get retail.
If you are dealing with a scummy loan person, they will add fees to a wholesale rate that can make their prices beyond stupid. When you are deling with someone who is fair, you may easily get a better deal from the broker side.

Most people have no clue what they are facing when they are looking for a loan. I will guess that 8 of 10 will try to screw them in some way, either by rate, fees, term etc.
Most succeed.

Most borrowers with tough situations were simply turned down by banks, just like the old days. They wanted a loan.
Many major lenders didn’t do subprime loans on the retail side.

Having someone who tells you the truth and keeps you out of a prepay when you don’t need to be in one is worth a small fortune. Some people are trusting the largest financial decision of their life to an hourly employee that works for the bank, not for the client, or a young kid in a boiler room with a crappy credit score who has never signed loan docs in their lives and may never.

Personally, I spend more time explaining things than I should. I want people to understand what their options are, so they can decide what is right for them,and it could save them tens of thousands of dollars over the life of their loan, or avoid a pitfall.
I have seen people pay $10,000 or more in prepayment penalties that they should have never been in.

YES, I charge for what I do, it’s more than fair in the industry. If someone wants to go at it alone, that’s their choice. I can’t guarantee anyone that I can get them the cheapest rate on earth, but nobody can honestly say that.
I look out for those that work with me.

If they care, they will learn something from me too.
I’ve had dozens of rentals and signed more loan docs than most and can give people some help that most others can’t.

If you just want to shop rates and think that you have beat the system, maybe you have and maybe you haven’t.
Maybe you are sharper than the average borrower.

I’m not even going to ask what you do for a living and how you justify what you get paid for what you do.
I wouldn’t expect to ever get a call from someone with your attitude, and that’s OK with me.

I don’t know why I wasted my time writing this, I’m sure that you don’t believe I’m any different.

[michael]

HLS,

Not a waste of time. I appreciate the sincerity of your post.

As I was reading your post I feel that you do indeed add serious value to your clients. I personally wouldn’t have a need for your services, but I can respect and value your integrity and character – which is your true value added.

My comments were painted with to broad a paint brush based on what i’ve seen in your industry and I apologize for my tone.

[HLS]

Michael,
There’s no offense. You aren’t wrong. Rants are therapy for me. I swim with some real scum. I wear a wet suit so they don’t rub off on me.

We are all just friends here that haven’t met face to face.

I don’t care if people shop. I can’t promise the lowest price. From what I see though, many people did get screwed on their loans. I can tell from their last closing statement showing the commission that was paid to the broker and the fees that were charged. I don’t need to know what the rates were that day.

Even intelligent, high wage earners got taken. The severity of the neg am loan has yet to rear its ugly head for many. It was pushed by many because it pays the highest commissions in the industry. Horrible product.

Some people pride themselves in thinking that they got the best deal on a car, plumber, computer, suit, loan etc. Does one ever really know ?
Plenty of businesses aren’t cheap, and people know it, and still shop there for quality, service, etc.

Is gambling on the internet with the largest financial transaction of one’s life risky ?
Making sure people understand their options and loan is my priority. I’ve heard horror stories of some online loan shopping experiences.

I try to explain that you don’t shop for rates, you shop for people to educate you and help you through the process.

[HLS]

Michael,
There’s no offense. You aren’t wrong. Rants are therapy for me. I swim with some real scum. I wear a wet suit so they don’t rub off on me.

We are all just friends here that haven’t met face to face.

I don’t care if people shop. I can’t promise the lowest price. From what I see though, many people did get screwed on their loans. I can tell from their last closing statement showing the commission that was paid to the broker and the fees that were charged. I don’t need to know what the rates were that day.

Even intelligent, high wage earners got taken. The severity of the neg am loan has yet to rear its ugly head for many. It was pushed by many because it pays the highest commissions in the industry. Horrible product.

Some people pride themselves in thinking that they got the best deal on a car, plumber, computer, suit, loan etc. Does one ever really know ?
Plenty of businesses aren’t cheap, and people know it, and still shop there for quality, service, etc.

Is gambling on the internet with the largest financial transaction of one’s life risky ?
Making sure people understand their options and loan is my priority. I’ve heard horror stories of some online loan shopping experiences.

I try to explain that you don’t shop for rates, you shop for people to educate you and help you through the process.

[michael]

HLS,

Not a waste of time. I appreciate the sincerity of your post.

As I was reading your post I feel that you do indeed add serious value to your clients. I personally wouldn’t have a need for your services, but I can respect and value your integrity and character – which is your true value added.

My comments were painted with to broad a paint brush based on what i’ve seen in your industry and I apologize for my tone.

[HLS]

Michael,
We aren’t all the same, sorry
I am in the industry and will not disagree with part of what you say.
In ANY commission based industry, any product, commissions breed fraud.

There were plenty of morons doing loans that screwed people beyond even your wildest dreams. The borrowers were taken, hook line and sinker. There are fewer still doing that today, but they are still out there. Often it was from a relative, friend or neighbor. I am not going to defend them in any way. Some people are losing their houses today because of the loans that they are in.

To me, providing a mortgage is a service. YOU may know what you want or at least think that you know what you want. Many that stand to make money from a borrower may know less than they do, but they know where their commission comes from.

I give people the best rates that I can and tell people what my service is going to cost them. I don’t care if they want an ARM, interest only, 30 YR or 40 Yr fixed, none of it changes my fee or what I net.

Most people are overwhelmed and stressed out throughout the process. I can solve that. Even if it costs them a few thousand dollars to get straight honest advice about a $500,000 transaction, it is worth it to them. It may not even cost that.

Retail banks have wholesale rates and retail rates. When you walk in a branch, you get retail.
If you are dealing with a scummy loan person, they will add fees to a wholesale rate that can make their prices beyond stupid. When you are deling with someone who is fair, you may easily get a better deal from the broker side.

Most people have no clue what they are facing when they are looking for a loan. I will guess that 8 of 10 will try to screw them in some way, either by rate, fees, term etc.
Most succeed.

Most borrowers with tough situations were simply turned down by banks, just like the old days. They wanted a loan.
Many major lenders didn’t do subprime loans on the retail side.

Having someone who tells you the truth and keeps you out of a prepay when you don’t need to be in one is worth a small fortune. Some people are trusting the largest financial decision of their life to an hourly employee that works for the bank, not for the client, or a young kid in a boiler room with a crappy credit score who has never signed loan docs in their lives and may never.

Personally, I spend more time explaining things than I should. I want people to understand what their options are, so they can decide what is right for them,and it could save them tens of thousands of dollars over the life of their loan, or avoid a pitfall.
I have seen people pay $10,000 or more in prepayment penalties that they should have never been in.

YES, I charge for what I do, it’s more than fair in the industry. If someone wants to go at it alone, that’s their choice. I can’t guarantee anyone that I can get them the cheapest rate on earth, but nobody can honestly say that.
I look out for those that work with me.

If they care, they will learn something from me too.
I’ve had dozens of rentals and signed more loan docs than most and can give people some help that most others can’t.

If you just want to shop rates and think that you have beat the system, maybe you have and maybe you haven’t.
Maybe you are sharper than the average borrower.

I’m not even going to ask what you do for a living and how you justify what you get paid for what you do.
I wouldn’t expect to ever get a call from someone with your attitude, and that’s OK with me.

I don’t know why I wasted my time writing this, I’m sure that you don’t believe I’m any different.

[michael]

Raybyrnes,

I don’t know about being short-sighted. I know about value added.

The internal revenue code is complex, CPAs (not tax preparers) provide huge value.

A stockbroker that simply executes trades is pretty worthless also. A Certified Financial Planner, CFP goes beyond executing stock trades and can provide huge value in issues such as estate planning, retirement, taxation and complex asset allocation strategies that involve alternative investments such as structured products, options, managed futures, and hedge funds.

Most insurance brokers push products but there are some very knowledgeable insurance folks working with attorneys that can shed light on issues such as Irrevocable life insurance trusts (ILITs), etc.

Mortgage brokers are mortgage brokers. The math and issues involved are much too simple. Mortgage brokers are useless middlemen.

IMO

[Raybyrnes]

Michael,

I don’t work in the industry but your opinion is pretty short sighted. Yeah if you don’t ahve any welth and you are going for a 30 year fixed there isn’t much need. Put some scratch together, start getting income properties, inherit some real estate that you are looking to cash out and all of a sudden a good broker goes a long way. I would say that hold true for a stock broker, insurance broker, CPA’s etc.

When yoiu don’t have much you don’t have the same need.

[michael]

I personally don’t see a need for a mortgage broker…

it’s not rocket science… would you like some cheese with that burger? but we have different types of cheese, it can get complicated? Would you like to super-size that? For here or to-go?

[Raybyrnes]

I would think that the cons are the fact that even if someone is upfront with you it does not mean they have access to the most competitive programs.

This probably becomes more apparent as you move away from a full documentation confomraing loan.

There are a lot of sub-prime bwrs out there who could have qualified for an FHA or CHAFA loan. If I were an upfront mortgage guy who did not have access to these prograams but provided the very best sub-prime loan that you could qualify for than you would have lost out.

If you are going to use lending tree for your loan you might be well served to get a costco card and participate in the rebate that goes along with using their program.

MOre than likely you are going to get routed back to Etrade.

[pertinazzio]

Wrangler wrote: “Should one only use UMB?” This was a new term to me so I spent a little time on at “Professor Mortgage’s” website. How does one get the best deal on a mortgage? Professor Mortgage seems to think that a UMB is a good idea if you get a good one. And what about the pros’ and cons of paying points for lower rates? How does that work out economically?

Beatus ille qui procul negotiis … paterna rura bobus exercet suis, solutus omni fenore….. Horace

[cantab]

When I refinanced recently, by far the best deal was from Pt Loma Credit Union. See here:
http://www.plcu.com/rates_db/interest_rates.asp

I have just closed with them, with no hiccups. Highly recommended.

When I last bought a house, I went with the broker suggested by my agent. He was a past president of the Calif. mtg brokers association’s ethics committee. He turned out to be so unethical I seriously considered suing him.

The best Internet deal is here:
http://www.ingdirect.com/google/index.html
You can get a firm loan commitment for free from ING in just a day or two. Use it as a basis for evaluating other offers.

HLS is very well-informed and has been very helpful to me by email. Recommended!

[HLS]

PCLU 30 YR rates aren’t anything special.
They are fair market rates.
These rates are those extended to our most creditworthy applicants. (???)

If that was BY FAR THE BEST DEAL, how much better was it than what you had been quoted ??
Someone try to rip you off ?

Rates change every day. Loans still need to be underwritten.
There are fees that need to be covered. You still have to qualify.

Their full no cost/no points rate was 6.75% on Friday.
On a $400K loan, That rate would pay a commission to cover all costs, which is $1000-$1500 more than is needed, so that rate isn’t so great.

The true par rate was 6.125-6.25 for a full doc loan with a score above 660. (Don’t know what their minimum score criteria is)

If you got the advice and service that you needed, then you should be happy. Some people need help and advice on how to structure the submission so it gets approved.
I doubt that the CU employee can accomplish that, if needed.

[Wrangler]

hi HLS, what’s your email? We’re looking for a full documentation loan for a purchase price about $750K. We can pay down 20%, but not sure if it would make much difference for the rate if we pay only 10% or 5%. Our credit scores are above 780. The mortgage before tax deduction will be less than 1/3 our gross monthly income for 10% downpayment. We’re mainly looking at 30 fixed, 15 fixed, 5/1 ARM.

Thanks a lot

[HLS]

[email protected]

Please post here if you send me an email.
I don’t check that box unless I need to.
It’s not my regular which I will respond from.

Happy to help if I can.

[cantab]

HLS, I am sure you are right about the 30 yr fixed at PLCU.

The loan I got is their 1 yr ARM jumbo at 4.25% initial rate. What is special about this is that the maximum it can adjust is 1% per year. Next year it will be 5.25%, then 6.25% etc. worst-case.

Their 3yr starts 1% higher, the 5yr 1.5% higher. Doing the math, the 3yr cannot be better than the 1yr and it takes many years for the 5yr to be potentially better.

Given excellent credit, stable job, and LTV under 50%, I am not worried about being able to refinance again when desirable.

The Pt Loma loan has no prepay penalty, no points, no origination fee. Total closing were $900 title insurance, $425 escrow fee, and about $400 miscellaneous fees. Nothing else. (Their no-closing-cost option is a bad deal since their closing costs are so low.)

[cantab]

HLS, I am sure you are right about the 30 yr fixed at PLCU.

The loan I got is their 1 yr ARM jumbo at 4.25% initial rate. What is special about this is that the maximum it can adjust is 1% per year. Next year it will be 5.25%, then 6.25% etc. worst-case.

Their 3yr starts 1% higher, the 5yr 1.5% higher. Doing the math, the 3yr cannot be better than the 1yr and it takes many years for the 5yr to be potentially better.

Given excellent credit, stable job, and LTV under 50%, I am not worried about being able to refinance again when desirable.

The Pt Loma loan has no prepay penalty, no points, no origination fee. Total closing were $900 title insurance, $425 escrow fee, and about $400 miscellaneous fees. Nothing else. (Their no-closing-cost option is a bad deal since their closing costs are so low.)

[HLS]

[email protected]

Please post here if you send me an email.
I don’t check that box unless I need to.
It’s not my regular which I will respond from.

Happy to help if I can.

[Wrangler]

hi HLS, what’s your email? We’re looking for a full documentation loan for a purchase price about $750K. We can pay down 20%, but not sure if it would make much difference for the rate if we pay only 10% or 5%. Our credit scores are above 780. The mortgage before tax deduction will be less than 1/3 our gross monthly income for 10% downpayment. We’re mainly looking at 30 fixed, 15 fixed, 5/1 ARM.

Thanks a lot

[HLS]

PCLU 30 YR rates aren’t anything special.
They are fair market rates.
These rates are those extended to our most creditworthy applicants. (???)

If that was BY FAR THE BEST DEAL, how much better was it than what you had been quoted ??
Someone try to rip you off ?

Rates change every day. Loans still need to be underwritten.
There are fees that need to be covered. You still have to qualify.

Their full no cost/no points rate was 6.75% on Friday.
On a $400K loan, That rate would pay a commission to cover all costs, which is $1000-$1500 more than is needed, so that rate isn’t so great.

The true par rate was 6.125-6.25 for a full doc loan with a score above 660. (Don’t know what their minimum score criteria is)

If you got the advice and service that you needed, then you should be happy. Some people need help and advice on how to structure the submission so it gets approved.
I doubt that the CU employee can accomplish that, if needed.

[cantab]

When I refinanced recently, by far the best deal was from Pt Loma Credit Union. See here:
http://www.plcu.com/rates_db/interest_rates.asp

I have just closed with them, with no hiccups. Highly recommended.

When I last bought a house, I went with the broker suggested by my agent. He was a past president of the Calif. mtg brokers association’s ethics committee. He turned out to be so unethical I seriously considered suing him.

The best Internet deal is here:
http://www.ingdirect.com/google/index.html
You can get a firm loan commitment for free from ING in just a day or two. Use it as a basis for evaluating other offers.

HLS is very well-informed and has been very helpful to me by email. Recommended!

[Author]

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