OLBERMANN AND GARAFOLO: Playing the Racist Game

[Coronita]

[quote=afx114]
You don’t see the difference between threatening a Jew with a furnace and threatening a non-Jew with the same? You have read history, haven’t you?
[/quote]

No, because in the context of the politics as you suggested in your previous statement, such a statement was obviously not used in a threatening or intimidating way such as to evoke the fear of one’s life, wouldn’t you agree? (Since when does anyone threaten the President of the United States )?

By all means neither a picture of Obama portrayed like Bush nor the furnace statement would be words of my choice…But I’m just trying to understand how a white person is suppose to navigate through this complex sea of political correctness without having to learn about every single culture before they can properly interact with someone….
For example, how is a white person suppose to know calling someone “oriental” is racist? If it happens, is that considered “threatening”?

[davelj]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]FLU: Racism or charges of racism are the “third rail” in American society. Quickest way to shut someone down or shut them up is to accuse them of racism. I think the OP makes that point quite well. Any criticism of Obama, valid or not, can be dispelled instantly by ascribing it to racism.

The irony of course is that everybody, to a certain extent, is racist, consciously or unconsciously. Black people can be tremendously racist, especially when it comes to Asians and Mexicans. Asians can be racists, too, and even within their own racial group (have you ever heard Japanese people ripping on Koreans, Vietnamese and Chinese?).

The PC movement has destroyed free speech in this country and instilled a fear of saying anything that either gives offense or might give offense. It’s pathetic, really, but we’re all conditioned now.

I remember playing football in high school and having black players refer to me as Opie, Mickey, Cracker, Clem, Jethro, Honky and Whitebread, as well as some other epithets that aren’t repeatable. We treated it as part of the game and responded accordingly, using terms like Sambo, Toad and Jungle Bunny. The funny part? We all knew each other and got along with each other, when we weren’t on the field, that is. Using those terms openly today would get you sued.[/quote]

Is it that everyone is a little bit “racist” or are we all a little “culturalist”? Or is it the same thing?

For example, let’s say that I’m hiring for some generic white collar position. Who I am going to prefer upon first inspection, the nondescript black guy in a suit and tie that went to Generic University, or some perfectly nice white dude with a mullet that didn’t attend college and didn’t bother to wear a tie? The black guy, of course. Different color than me, but probably shares more of the same cultural values than the white dude. At least on first inspection. Does that make me a reverse-racist against my own race? Of course not. I’m showing a preference for one person’s culture over a another (again, on first impression).

That’s why so many middle-class-and-above white folks identify with Colin Powell, Obama, Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, etc. etc. Culturally, they’re very similar to “us.” Likewise, most of these same middle-class white folks have a distaste for gangsta culture (among blacks) and redneck culture (among whites). Perhaps not in equal measures, but certainly a distaste for both.

My point is that I think a lot of what folks point to as “racism” isn’t about race (or color). It’s about culture. Now, some folks may say that “culture” is just a code word for “race,” such that if you’re a “culturist” then you’re really just a “racist” by another name. I happen not to buy that argument, because it’s intellectually lazy (specifically, it assumes that everyone of a particular race supports the same culture, which is absurd). Nevertheless, some folks will play that card if you back them into a corner on the issue.

Bottom line: folks like to work and live among other folks of a similar culture to their own. While race may play a role, I think culture is the real issue. Now, is it wrong to discriminate – openly or otherwise – on the basis of culture? Maybe. But that’s what every one of us does. Even the folks that don’t consider themselves racist.

Allan: Why didn’t they refer to you as Cletus? That’s my favorite redneck name. I’m disappointed.

[davelj]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]FLU: Racism or charges of racism are the “third rail” in American society. Quickest way to shut someone down or shut them up is to accuse them of racism. I think the OP makes that point quite well. Any criticism of Obama, valid or not, can be dispelled instantly by ascribing it to racism.

The irony of course is that everybody, to a certain extent, is racist, consciously or unconsciously. Black people can be tremendously racist, especially when it comes to Asians and Mexicans. Asians can be racists, too, and even within their own racial group (have you ever heard Japanese people ripping on Koreans, Vietnamese and Chinese?).

The PC movement has destroyed free speech in this country and instilled a fear of saying anything that either gives offense or might give offense. It’s pathetic, really, but we’re all conditioned now.

I remember playing football in high school and having black players refer to me as Opie, Mickey, Cracker, Clem, Jethro, Honky and Whitebread, as well as some other epithets that aren’t repeatable. We treated it as part of the game and responded accordingly, using terms like Sambo, Toad and Jungle Bunny. The funny part? We all knew each other and got along with each other, when we weren’t on the field, that is. Using those terms openly today would get you sued.[/quote]

Is it that everyone is a little bit “racist” or are we all a little “culturalist”? Or is it the same thing?

For example, let’s say that I’m hiring for some generic white collar position. Who I am going to prefer upon first inspection, the nondescript black guy in a suit and tie that went to Generic University, or some perfectly nice white dude with a mullet that didn’t attend college and didn’t bother to wear a tie? The black guy, of course. Different color than me, but probably shares more of the same cultural values than the white dude. At least on first inspection. Does that make me a reverse-racist against my own race? Of course not. I’m showing a preference for one person’s culture over a another (again, on first impression).

That’s why so many middle-class-and-above white folks identify with Colin Powell, Obama, Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, etc. etc. Culturally, they’re very similar to “us.” Likewise, most of these same middle-class white folks have a distaste for gangsta culture (among blacks) and redneck culture (among whites). Perhaps not in equal measures, but certainly a distaste for both.

My point is that I think a lot of what folks point to as “racism” isn’t about race (or color). It’s about culture. Now, some folks may say that “culture” is just a code word for “race,” such that if you’re a “culturist” then you’re really just a “racist” by another name. I happen not to buy that argument, because it’s intellectually lazy (specifically, it assumes that everyone of a particular race supports the same culture, which is absurd). Nevertheless, some folks will play that card if you back them into a corner on the issue.

Bottom line: folks like to work and live among other folks of a similar culture to their own. While race may play a role, I think culture is the real issue. Now, is it wrong to discriminate – openly or otherwise – on the basis of culture? Maybe. But that’s what every one of us does. Even the folks that don’t consider themselves racist.

Allan: Why didn’t they refer to you as Cletus? That’s my favorite redneck name. I’m disappointed.

[davelj]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]FLU: Racism or charges of racism are the “third rail” in American society. Quickest way to shut someone down or shut them up is to accuse them of racism. I think the OP makes that point quite well. Any criticism of Obama, valid or not, can be dispelled instantly by ascribing it to racism.

The irony of course is that everybody, to a certain extent, is racist, consciously or unconsciously. Black people can be tremendously racist, especially when it comes to Asians and Mexicans. Asians can be racists, too, and even within their own racial group (have you ever heard Japanese people ripping on Koreans, Vietnamese and Chinese?).

The PC movement has destroyed free speech in this country and instilled a fear of saying anything that either gives offense or might give offense. It’s pathetic, really, but we’re all conditioned now.

I remember playing football in high school and having black players refer to me as Opie, Mickey, Cracker, Clem, Jethro, Honky and Whitebread, as well as some other epithets that aren’t repeatable. We treated it as part of the game and responded accordingly, using terms like Sambo, Toad and Jungle Bunny. The funny part? We all knew each other and got along with each other, when we weren’t on the field, that is. Using those terms openly today would get you sued.[/quote]

Is it that everyone is a little bit “racist” or are we all a little “culturalist”? Or is it the same thing?

For example, let’s say that I’m hiring for some generic white collar position. Who I am going to prefer upon first inspection, the nondescript black guy in a suit and tie that went to Generic University, or some perfectly nice white dude with a mullet that didn’t attend college and didn’t bother to wear a tie? The black guy, of course. Different color than me, but probably shares more of the same cultural values than the white dude. At least on first inspection. Does that make me a reverse-racist against my own race? Of course not. I’m showing a preference for one person’s culture over a another (again, on first impression).

That’s why so many middle-class-and-above white folks identify with Colin Powell, Obama, Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, etc. etc. Culturally, they’re very similar to “us.” Likewise, most of these same middle-class white folks have a distaste for gangsta culture (among blacks) and redneck culture (among whites). Perhaps not in equal measures, but certainly a distaste for both.

My point is that I think a lot of what folks point to as “racism” isn’t about race (or color). It’s about culture. Now, some folks may say that “culture” is just a code word for “race,” such that if you’re a “culturist” then you’re really just a “racist” by another name. I happen not to buy that argument, because it’s intellectually lazy (specifically, it assumes that everyone of a particular race supports the same culture, which is absurd). Nevertheless, some folks will play that card if you back them into a corner on the issue.

Bottom line: folks like to work and live among other folks of a similar culture to their own. While race may play a role, I think culture is the real issue. Now, is it wrong to discriminate – openly or otherwise – on the basis of culture? Maybe. But that’s what every one of us does. Even the folks that don’t consider themselves racist.

Allan: Why didn’t they refer to you as Cletus? That’s my favorite redneck name. I’m disappointed.

[davelj]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]FLU: Racism or charges of racism are the “third rail” in American society. Quickest way to shut someone down or shut them up is to accuse them of racism. I think the OP makes that point quite well. Any criticism of Obama, valid or not, can be dispelled instantly by ascribing it to racism.

The irony of course is that everybody, to a certain extent, is racist, consciously or unconsciously. Black people can be tremendously racist, especially when it comes to Asians and Mexicans. Asians can be racists, too, and even within their own racial group (have you ever heard Japanese people ripping on Koreans, Vietnamese and Chinese?).

The PC movement has destroyed free speech in this country and instilled a fear of saying anything that either gives offense or might give offense. It’s pathetic, really, but we’re all conditioned now.

I remember playing football in high school and having black players refer to me as Opie, Mickey, Cracker, Clem, Jethro, Honky and Whitebread, as well as some other epithets that aren’t repeatable. We treated it as part of the game and responded accordingly, using terms like Sambo, Toad and Jungle Bunny. The funny part? We all knew each other and got along with each other, when we weren’t on the field, that is. Using those terms openly today would get you sued.[/quote]

Is it that everyone is a little bit “racist” or are we all a little “culturalist”? Or is it the same thing?

For example, let’s say that I’m hiring for some generic white collar position. Who I am going to prefer upon first inspection, the nondescript black guy in a suit and tie that went to Generic University, or some perfectly nice white dude with a mullet that didn’t attend college and didn’t bother to wear a tie? The black guy, of course. Different color than me, but probably shares more of the same cultural values than the white dude. At least on first inspection. Does that make me a reverse-racist against my own race? Of course not. I’m showing a preference for one person’s culture over a another (again, on first impression).

That’s why so many middle-class-and-above white folks identify with Colin Powell, Obama, Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, etc. etc. Culturally, they’re very similar to “us.” Likewise, most of these same middle-class white folks have a distaste for gangsta culture (among blacks) and redneck culture (among whites). Perhaps not in equal measures, but certainly a distaste for both.

My point is that I think a lot of what folks point to as “racism” isn’t about race (or color). It’s about culture. Now, some folks may say that “culture” is just a code word for “race,” such that if you’re a “culturist” then you’re really just a “racist” by another name. I happen not to buy that argument, because it’s intellectually lazy (specifically, it assumes that everyone of a particular race supports the same culture, which is absurd). Nevertheless, some folks will play that card if you back them into a corner on the issue.

Bottom line: folks like to work and live among other folks of a similar culture to their own. While race may play a role, I think culture is the real issue. Now, is it wrong to discriminate – openly or otherwise – on the basis of culture? Maybe. But that’s what every one of us does. Even the folks that don’t consider themselves racist.

Allan: Why didn’t they refer to you as Cletus? That’s my favorite redneck name. I’m disappointed.

[davelj]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]FLU: Racism or charges of racism are the “third rail” in American society. Quickest way to shut someone down or shut them up is to accuse them of racism. I think the OP makes that point quite well. Any criticism of Obama, valid or not, can be dispelled instantly by ascribing it to racism.

The irony of course is that everybody, to a certain extent, is racist, consciously or unconsciously. Black people can be tremendously racist, especially when it comes to Asians and Mexicans. Asians can be racists, too, and even within their own racial group (have you ever heard Japanese people ripping on Koreans, Vietnamese and Chinese?).

The PC movement has destroyed free speech in this country and instilled a fear of saying anything that either gives offense or might give offense. It’s pathetic, really, but we’re all conditioned now.

I remember playing football in high school and having black players refer to me as Opie, Mickey, Cracker, Clem, Jethro, Honky and Whitebread, as well as some other epithets that aren’t repeatable. We treated it as part of the game and responded accordingly, using terms like Sambo, Toad and Jungle Bunny. The funny part? We all knew each other and got along with each other, when we weren’t on the field, that is. Using those terms openly today would get you sued.[/quote]

Is it that everyone is a little bit “racist” or are we all a little “culturalist”? Or is it the same thing?

For example, let’s say that I’m hiring for some generic white collar position. Who I am going to prefer upon first inspection, the nondescript black guy in a suit and tie that went to Generic University, or some perfectly nice white dude with a mullet that didn’t attend college and didn’t bother to wear a tie? The black guy, of course. Different color than me, but probably shares more of the same cultural values than the white dude. At least on first inspection. Does that make me a reverse-racist against my own race? Of course not. I’m showing a preference for one person’s culture over a another (again, on first impression).

That’s why so many middle-class-and-above white folks identify with Colin Powell, Obama, Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, etc. etc. Culturally, they’re very similar to “us.” Likewise, most of these same middle-class white folks have a distaste for gangsta culture (among blacks) and redneck culture (among whites). Perhaps not in equal measures, but certainly a distaste for both.

My point is that I think a lot of what folks point to as “racism” isn’t about race (or color). It’s about culture. Now, some folks may say that “culture” is just a code word for “race,” such that if you’re a “culturist” then you’re really just a “racist” by another name. I happen not to buy that argument, because it’s intellectually lazy (specifically, it assumes that everyone of a particular race supports the same culture, which is absurd). Nevertheless, some folks will play that card if you back them into a corner on the issue.

Bottom line: folks like to work and live among other folks of a similar culture to their own. While race may play a role, I think culture is the real issue. Now, is it wrong to discriminate – openly or otherwise – on the basis of culture? Maybe. But that’s what every one of us does. Even the folks that don’t consider themselves racist.

Allan: Why didn’t they refer to you as Cletus? That’s my favorite redneck name. I’m disappointed.

[an]

[quote=afx114]
My friends have already come up with a way around this: “Sup my ninja?” (apologies in advance if I’ve offended any Asians with my remarks).

I personally haven’t heard anyone say ‘Hang the xxxxxx’ but my point was to illustrate the historical significance of the word. Words have history attached to them, and I think that it is easy to forget that history means different things to different people depending on their perspective. Just as history has different meaning for different people, so do words. And I think that it’s intellectually lazy not to consider others perspectives when it comes to both history and language.[/quote]
You say words have history behind it. It works both way. If a certain word has such a charged meaning/history, then don’t trivialize it by using it yourself, then get offended when other thought it’s now trivialized. Also, if a word has a history charged meaning for a certain group of people, wouldn’t it also carry the same weight only when used by the same group of people who made that word charged in the first place?

[an]

[quote=afx114]
My friends have already come up with a way around this: “Sup my ninja?” (apologies in advance if I’ve offended any Asians with my remarks).

I personally haven’t heard anyone say ‘Hang the xxxxxx’ but my point was to illustrate the historical significance of the word. Words have history attached to them, and I think that it is easy to forget that history means different things to different people depending on their perspective. Just as history has different meaning for different people, so do words. And I think that it’s intellectually lazy not to consider others perspectives when it comes to both history and language.[/quote]
You say words have history behind it. It works both way. If a certain word has such a charged meaning/history, then don’t trivialize it by using it yourself, then get offended when other thought it’s now trivialized. Also, if a word has a history charged meaning for a certain group of people, wouldn’t it also carry the same weight only when used by the same group of people who made that word charged in the first place?

[an]

[quote=afx114]
My friends have already come up with a way around this: “Sup my ninja?” (apologies in advance if I’ve offended any Asians with my remarks).

I personally haven’t heard anyone say ‘Hang the xxxxxx’ but my point was to illustrate the historical significance of the word. Words have history attached to them, and I think that it is easy to forget that history means different things to different people depending on their perspective. Just as history has different meaning for different people, so do words. And I think that it’s intellectually lazy not to consider others perspectives when it comes to both history and language.[/quote]
You say words have history behind it. It works both way. If a certain word has such a charged meaning/history, then don’t trivialize it by using it yourself, then get offended when other thought it’s now trivialized. Also, if a word has a history charged meaning for a certain group of people, wouldn’t it also carry the same weight only when used by the same group of people who made that word charged in the first place?

[an]

[quote=afx114]
My friends have already come up with a way around this: “Sup my ninja?” (apologies in advance if I’ve offended any Asians with my remarks).

I personally haven’t heard anyone say ‘Hang the xxxxxx’ but my point was to illustrate the historical significance of the word. Words have history attached to them, and I think that it is easy to forget that history means different things to different people depending on their perspective. Just as history has different meaning for different people, so do words. And I think that it’s intellectually lazy not to consider others perspectives when it comes to both history and language.[/quote]
You say words have history behind it. It works both way. If a certain word has such a charged meaning/history, then don’t trivialize it by using it yourself, then get offended when other thought it’s now trivialized. Also, if a word has a history charged meaning for a certain group of people, wouldn’t it also carry the same weight only when used by the same group of people who made that word charged in the first place?

[an]

[quote=afx114]
My friends have already come up with a way around this: “Sup my ninja?” (apologies in advance if I’ve offended any Asians with my remarks).

I personally haven’t heard anyone say ‘Hang the xxxxxx’ but my point was to illustrate the historical significance of the word. Words have history attached to them, and I think that it is easy to forget that history means different things to different people depending on their perspective. Just as history has different meaning for different people, so do words. And I think that it’s intellectually lazy not to consider others perspectives when it comes to both history and language.[/quote]
You say words have history behind it. It works both way. If a certain word has such a charged meaning/history, then don’t trivialize it by using it yourself, then get offended when other thought it’s now trivialized. Also, if a word has a history charged meaning for a certain group of people, wouldn’t it also carry the same weight only when used by the same group of people who made that word charged in the first place?

[Coronita]

[quote=afx114][quote=flu]afx114, yes but again the point is if AN or I were your friend, and said “Sup my xxxxx?” would that be ok with you?[/quote]

My friends have already come up with a way around this: “Sup my ninja?” (apologies in advance if I’ve offended any Asians with my remarks).

I personally haven’t heard anyone say ‘Hang the xxxxxx’ but my point was to illustrate the historical significance of the word. Words have history attached to them, and I think that it is easy to forget that history means different things to different people depending on their perspective. Just as history has different meaning for different people, so do words. And I think that it’s intellectually lazy not to consider others perspectives when it comes to both history and language.[/quote]

I’m not trying to pick on you. I’m really trying to understand this complex issue of race relations.

But back to your first point. Why should your friends have to cirmcuvent the word to begin with? Is it really the burden of white people to learn every nook and cranny about every culture and figure out what exactly is PC for one culture and what’s not PC for another culture without being called a racist the first time a white person misspeaks?

( And no, I don’t get offended at the ninja reference. When people “konichiwa” me…I simply suggest the way you can tell us apart:

*more than one syllable last name = japanese.
*single syllable last name = chinese or korean
*…last names with C,H,L(except Lee), X,Y,Z = chinese.
*…last name with A,S,K = korean
*…”Lee” is generic and could be chinese or korean

[Coronita]

[quote=afx114][quote=flu]afx114, yes but again the point is if AN or I were your friend, and said “Sup my xxxxx?” would that be ok with you?[/quote]

My friends have already come up with a way around this: “Sup my ninja?” (apologies in advance if I’ve offended any Asians with my remarks).

I personally haven’t heard anyone say ‘Hang the xxxxxx’ but my point was to illustrate the historical significance of the word. Words have history attached to them, and I think that it is easy to forget that history means different things to different people depending on their perspective. Just as history has different meaning for different people, so do words. And I think that it’s intellectually lazy not to consider others perspectives when it comes to both history and language.[/quote]

I’m not trying to pick on you. I’m really trying to understand this complex issue of race relations.

But back to your first point. Why should your friends have to cirmcuvent the word to begin with? Is it really the burden of white people to learn every nook and cranny about every culture and figure out what exactly is PC for one culture and what’s not PC for another culture without being called a racist the first time a white person misspeaks?

( And no, I don’t get offended at the ninja reference. When people “konichiwa” me…I simply suggest the way you can tell us apart:

*more than one syllable last name = japanese.
*single syllable last name = chinese or korean
*…last names with C,H,L(except Lee), X,Y,Z = chinese.
*…last name with A,S,K = korean
*…”Lee” is generic and could be chinese or korean

[Coronita]

[quote=afx114][quote=flu]afx114, yes but again the point is if AN or I were your friend, and said “Sup my xxxxx?” would that be ok with you?[/quote]

My friends have already come up with a way around this: “Sup my ninja?” (apologies in advance if I’ve offended any Asians with my remarks).

I personally haven’t heard anyone say ‘Hang the xxxxxx’ but my point was to illustrate the historical significance of the word. Words have history attached to them, and I think that it is easy to forget that history means different things to different people depending on their perspective. Just as history has different meaning for different people, so do words. And I think that it’s intellectually lazy not to consider others perspectives when it comes to both history and language.[/quote]

I’m not trying to pick on you. I’m really trying to understand this complex issue of race relations.

But back to your first point. Why should your friends have to cirmcuvent the word to begin with? Is it really the burden of white people to learn every nook and cranny about every culture and figure out what exactly is PC for one culture and what’s not PC for another culture without being called a racist the first time a white person misspeaks?

( And no, I don’t get offended at the ninja reference. When people “konichiwa” me…I simply suggest the way you can tell us apart:

*more than one syllable last name = japanese.
*single syllable last name = chinese or korean
*…last names with C,H,L(except Lee), X,Y,Z = chinese.
*…last name with A,S,K = korean
*…”Lee” is generic and could be chinese or korean

[Coronita]

[quote=afx114][quote=flu]afx114, yes but again the point is if AN or I were your friend, and said “Sup my xxxxx?” would that be ok with you?[/quote]

My friends have already come up with a way around this: “Sup my ninja?” (apologies in advance if I’ve offended any Asians with my remarks).

I personally haven’t heard anyone say ‘Hang the xxxxxx’ but my point was to illustrate the historical significance of the word. Words have history attached to them, and I think that it is easy to forget that history means different things to different people depending on their perspective. Just as history has different meaning for different people, so do words. And I think that it’s intellectually lazy not to consider others perspectives when it comes to both history and language.[/quote]

I’m not trying to pick on you. I’m really trying to understand this complex issue of race relations.

But back to your first point. Why should your friends have to cirmcuvent the word to begin with? Is it really the burden of white people to learn every nook and cranny about every culture and figure out what exactly is PC for one culture and what’s not PC for another culture without being called a racist the first time a white person misspeaks?

( And no, I don’t get offended at the ninja reference. When people “konichiwa” me…I simply suggest the way you can tell us apart:

*more than one syllable last name = japanese.
*single syllable last name = chinese or korean
*…last names with C,H,L(except Lee), X,Y,Z = chinese.
*…last name with A,S,K = korean
*…”Lee” is generic and could be chinese or korean

[Author]

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