ObamaCare…coming soon

[afx114]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]the innovations you speak of are part of a very competitive system, designed to push innovation and creativity, but to do so for a profit.[/quote]

Of course. I have no problem with this — it’s how it should be. The healthcare bill in question has nothing to do with stifling innovation. If you invent a drug that cures AIDS you will be a billionaire with or without this bill. To claim that this bill will somehow prevent someone (whether public or private) from finding cures for diseases is unfounded.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Lastly, I would ask, relative to those life expectancy numbers from Europe: How big is the difference for American life expectancy versus European? If I remember correctly, we’re talking fairly minute differences, aren’t we?[/quote]

Here is a nice chart of overall life-expectancy:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html

France is ranked #9 at 80.98 years.
US is ranked #50 at 78.11 years behind such powerhouses as Bermuda, Liechtenstein, and Bosnia.

Sure, for us 2-3 years may be a “minute difference” but if you ask someone who is 78, I have a feeling the difference won’t feel as minute to them.

But those life expectancy numbers are from birth — the real difference makes itself known when you compare life expectancy at 60. The US is even worse at that data point. I’m trying to find some data on these numbers but my Google Fu is failing me at the moment.

Oh, and France is probably cheating with all of their wine drinking and vacation taking.

[sdgrrl]

Allan, it is completely your right to hate Pelosi to her core and wish that she and the horse she rode on would just plunder in to the sunset.

I feel the need to point out though that she did not say that people who oppose health care reform are unAmerican. Her comments were in regards specifically to the town hall protesters who were shouting down and not allowing anyone else to speak. These people were not speaking their mind they simply wanted distraction and confusion. Freedom of speech is an American right and in my opinion these fringe folks were not being respectful of anyone else’s right to free speech.

I appreciate you mentioning Bush/Cheney and that’s why I understand how her statements could piss you off. I remember hearing I was unAmerican for not supporting Bush or the war and at that time I also said that dissent is the highest form of patriotism and liberty. Take that away and what do you have? I don’t know, but I’m sure a North Korean refugee could explain it very well.

I also completely agree with an earlier post you wrote that Obama needs to stop letting Congress take control of the issue. He also does need to “go on the stump” and explain this to the American people. We will see Wed night when he addresses Congress and I’m sure this thread will be blowing up!

[sdgrrl]

Allan, it is completely your right to hate Pelosi to her core and wish that she and the horse she rode on would just plunder in to the sunset.

I feel the need to point out though that she did not say that people who oppose health care reform are unAmerican. Her comments were in regards specifically to the town hall protesters who were shouting down and not allowing anyone else to speak. These people were not speaking their mind they simply wanted distraction and confusion. Freedom of speech is an American right and in my opinion these fringe folks were not being respectful of anyone else’s right to free speech.

I appreciate you mentioning Bush/Cheney and that’s why I understand how her statements could piss you off. I remember hearing I was unAmerican for not supporting Bush or the war and at that time I also said that dissent is the highest form of patriotism and liberty. Take that away and what do you have? I don’t know, but I’m sure a North Korean refugee could explain it very well.

I also completely agree with an earlier post you wrote that Obama needs to stop letting Congress take control of the issue. He also does need to “go on the stump” and explain this to the American people. We will see Wed night when he addresses Congress and I’m sure this thread will be blowing up!

[sdgrrl]

Allan, it is completely your right to hate Pelosi to her core and wish that she and the horse she rode on would just plunder in to the sunset.

I feel the need to point out though that she did not say that people who oppose health care reform are unAmerican. Her comments were in regards specifically to the town hall protesters who were shouting down and not allowing anyone else to speak. These people were not speaking their mind they simply wanted distraction and confusion. Freedom of speech is an American right and in my opinion these fringe folks were not being respectful of anyone else’s right to free speech.

I appreciate you mentioning Bush/Cheney and that’s why I understand how her statements could piss you off. I remember hearing I was unAmerican for not supporting Bush or the war and at that time I also said that dissent is the highest form of patriotism and liberty. Take that away and what do you have? I don’t know, but I’m sure a North Korean refugee could explain it very well.

I also completely agree with an earlier post you wrote that Obama needs to stop letting Congress take control of the issue. He also does need to “go on the stump” and explain this to the American people. We will see Wed night when he addresses Congress and I’m sure this thread will be blowing up!

[sdgrrl]

Allan, it is completely your right to hate Pelosi to her core and wish that she and the horse she rode on would just plunder in to the sunset.

I feel the need to point out though that she did not say that people who oppose health care reform are unAmerican. Her comments were in regards specifically to the town hall protesters who were shouting down and not allowing anyone else to speak. These people were not speaking their mind they simply wanted distraction and confusion. Freedom of speech is an American right and in my opinion these fringe folks were not being respectful of anyone else’s right to free speech.

I appreciate you mentioning Bush/Cheney and that’s why I understand how her statements could piss you off. I remember hearing I was unAmerican for not supporting Bush or the war and at that time I also said that dissent is the highest form of patriotism and liberty. Take that away and what do you have? I don’t know, but I’m sure a North Korean refugee could explain it very well.

I also completely agree with an earlier post you wrote that Obama needs to stop letting Congress take control of the issue. He also does need to “go on the stump” and explain this to the American people. We will see Wed night when he addresses Congress and I’m sure this thread will be blowing up!

[sdgrrl]

Allan, it is completely your right to hate Pelosi to her core and wish that she and the horse she rode on would just plunder in to the sunset.

I feel the need to point out though that she did not say that people who oppose health care reform are unAmerican. Her comments were in regards specifically to the town hall protesters who were shouting down and not allowing anyone else to speak. These people were not speaking their mind they simply wanted distraction and confusion. Freedom of speech is an American right and in my opinion these fringe folks were not being respectful of anyone else’s right to free speech.

I appreciate you mentioning Bush/Cheney and that’s why I understand how her statements could piss you off. I remember hearing I was unAmerican for not supporting Bush or the war and at that time I also said that dissent is the highest form of patriotism and liberty. Take that away and what do you have? I don’t know, but I’m sure a North Korean refugee could explain it very well.

I also completely agree with an earlier post you wrote that Obama needs to stop letting Congress take control of the issue. He also does need to “go on the stump” and explain this to the American people. We will see Wed night when he addresses Congress and I’m sure this thread will be blowing up!

[ucodegen]

On board member mentioned many posts ago, to the effect that, why was health care less expensive 10 years ago..

It is quite simple. Insurance. Same has happened to auto repair costs. I would even add that 30 years ago, the costs of health care considerably less than now. 30 years ago, most people paid directly and insured only for catastrophic injuries. The exception was in the government sector (gov employees including teachers)

Any time you separate the beneficiary of a program from the payer of a program.. costs will spiral out of control. The beneficiary will want the best available irregardless of cost – because they don’t have to pay.. and the payer will have to pay up. If you add in an intermediary like insurance company or government and you have disaster. The intermediary will see it as a way to make a profit (skim) off of the huge amounts of money crossing hands.. or in the case of a government, a way to hide the costs of pork, ‘special’ compensation.

As I have mentioned before, I am one of the laid-off, looking for a job people. I am also one of the ‘uninsured’. Interesting part is, I was also one of the ‘uninsured’ when I was working. It is by choice. Instead of paying the money to an insurance company, I invested it. Now that I am laid off, I still am effectively covered because of all of that money I saved up over the years. I don’t have to pay COBRA to be able to pay for doctor or hospital visits. Shortly before I was laid off, I became extremely ill and jaundiced. The cost wasn’t that bad. It turns out that I can get close to 30% discount for being a cash payer. My MRI cost less by about 36% than if it had been covered by insurance. Total cost to me for all the doctor visits and tests etc came to about $2100. Compare this to even a years worth of insurance and this one time that I was sicker than I have ever been, comes out relatively cheap compared to paying for insurance for one year. In the process, one of the doctors I was going to was ‘steering’ me to surgery, ignoring the sepsis/bacterial infection possibility and family history. It was easy for me to walk away from this doctor and pick another. I have been fine for over 1 year now.. which seems to confirm the first doctor as being wrong.

One thing I did learn from this was the surprising number of doctors that prefer dealing with insurance. It came out that with self-pays, the doctors had to justify the tests to the patient and the patient had the final say. With the insured, the doctors could rack up the tests (which in some cases have ‘paybacks’ for business) without any final say in many cases. I am not putting down all GPs here, just saying that the decisions made by some are questionable. There seems to be too much ‘overtesting’ and the surgery option comes up too quickly.

Interesting exercises:
1) Take the sum of all the health care payments with or without company co-pay over your life.. and look at the total cost vs est outlay. If you are feeling like needing a challenge, include estimated growth based upon S&P historical growth.
2) Do the same for Social Security..

In all, I found that paying directly and insuring for only catastrophic is actually the best way, even now. General insurance makes people feel ‘safe’.. but at a considerable cost. Those outstretched hands of the ‘Good Hands People’ are not there to help you, they are asking for more money…

[ucodegen]

On board member mentioned many posts ago, to the effect that, why was health care less expensive 10 years ago..

It is quite simple. Insurance. Same has happened to auto repair costs. I would even add that 30 years ago, the costs of health care considerably less than now. 30 years ago, most people paid directly and insured only for catastrophic injuries. The exception was in the government sector (gov employees including teachers)

Any time you separate the beneficiary of a program from the payer of a program.. costs will spiral out of control. The beneficiary will want the best available irregardless of cost – because they don’t have to pay.. and the payer will have to pay up. If you add in an intermediary like insurance company or government and you have disaster. The intermediary will see it as a way to make a profit (skim) off of the huge amounts of money crossing hands.. or in the case of a government, a way to hide the costs of pork, ‘special’ compensation.

As I have mentioned before, I am one of the laid-off, looking for a job people. I am also one of the ‘uninsured’. Interesting part is, I was also one of the ‘uninsured’ when I was working. It is by choice. Instead of paying the money to an insurance company, I invested it. Now that I am laid off, I still am effectively covered because of all of that money I saved up over the years. I don’t have to pay COBRA to be able to pay for doctor or hospital visits. Shortly before I was laid off, I became extremely ill and jaundiced. The cost wasn’t that bad. It turns out that I can get close to 30% discount for being a cash payer. My MRI cost less by about 36% than if it had been covered by insurance. Total cost to me for all the doctor visits and tests etc came to about $2100. Compare this to even a years worth of insurance and this one time that I was sicker than I have ever been, comes out relatively cheap compared to paying for insurance for one year. In the process, one of the doctors I was going to was ‘steering’ me to surgery, ignoring the sepsis/bacterial infection possibility and family history. It was easy for me to walk away from this doctor and pick another. I have been fine for over 1 year now.. which seems to confirm the first doctor as being wrong.

One thing I did learn from this was the surprising number of doctors that prefer dealing with insurance. It came out that with self-pays, the doctors had to justify the tests to the patient and the patient had the final say. With the insured, the doctors could rack up the tests (which in some cases have ‘paybacks’ for business) without any final say in many cases. I am not putting down all GPs here, just saying that the decisions made by some are questionable. There seems to be too much ‘overtesting’ and the surgery option comes up too quickly.

Interesting exercises:
1) Take the sum of all the health care payments with or without company co-pay over your life.. and look at the total cost vs est outlay. If you are feeling like needing a challenge, include estimated growth based upon S&P historical growth.
2) Do the same for Social Security..

In all, I found that paying directly and insuring for only catastrophic is actually the best way, even now. General insurance makes people feel ‘safe’.. but at a considerable cost. Those outstretched hands of the ‘Good Hands People’ are not there to help you, they are asking for more money…

[ucodegen]

On board member mentioned many posts ago, to the effect that, why was health care less expensive 10 years ago..

It is quite simple. Insurance. Same has happened to auto repair costs. I would even add that 30 years ago, the costs of health care considerably less than now. 30 years ago, most people paid directly and insured only for catastrophic injuries. The exception was in the government sector (gov employees including teachers)

Any time you separate the beneficiary of a program from the payer of a program.. costs will spiral out of control. The beneficiary will want the best available irregardless of cost – because they don’t have to pay.. and the payer will have to pay up. If you add in an intermediary like insurance company or government and you have disaster. The intermediary will see it as a way to make a profit (skim) off of the huge amounts of money crossing hands.. or in the case of a government, a way to hide the costs of pork, ‘special’ compensation.

As I have mentioned before, I am one of the laid-off, looking for a job people. I am also one of the ‘uninsured’. Interesting part is, I was also one of the ‘uninsured’ when I was working. It is by choice. Instead of paying the money to an insurance company, I invested it. Now that I am laid off, I still am effectively covered because of all of that money I saved up over the years. I don’t have to pay COBRA to be able to pay for doctor or hospital visits. Shortly before I was laid off, I became extremely ill and jaundiced. The cost wasn’t that bad. It turns out that I can get close to 30% discount for being a cash payer. My MRI cost less by about 36% than if it had been covered by insurance. Total cost to me for all the doctor visits and tests etc came to about $2100. Compare this to even a years worth of insurance and this one time that I was sicker than I have ever been, comes out relatively cheap compared to paying for insurance for one year. In the process, one of the doctors I was going to was ‘steering’ me to surgery, ignoring the sepsis/bacterial infection possibility and family history. It was easy for me to walk away from this doctor and pick another. I have been fine for over 1 year now.. which seems to confirm the first doctor as being wrong.

One thing I did learn from this was the surprising number of doctors that prefer dealing with insurance. It came out that with self-pays, the doctors had to justify the tests to the patient and the patient had the final say. With the insured, the doctors could rack up the tests (which in some cases have ‘paybacks’ for business) without any final say in many cases. I am not putting down all GPs here, just saying that the decisions made by some are questionable. There seems to be too much ‘overtesting’ and the surgery option comes up too quickly.

Interesting exercises:
1) Take the sum of all the health care payments with or without company co-pay over your life.. and look at the total cost vs est outlay. If you are feeling like needing a challenge, include estimated growth based upon S&P historical growth.
2) Do the same for Social Security..

In all, I found that paying directly and insuring for only catastrophic is actually the best way, even now. General insurance makes people feel ‘safe’.. but at a considerable cost. Those outstretched hands of the ‘Good Hands People’ are not there to help you, they are asking for more money…

[ucodegen]

On board member mentioned many posts ago, to the effect that, why was health care less expensive 10 years ago..

It is quite simple. Insurance. Same has happened to auto repair costs. I would even add that 30 years ago, the costs of health care considerably less than now. 30 years ago, most people paid directly and insured only for catastrophic injuries. The exception was in the government sector (gov employees including teachers)

Any time you separate the beneficiary of a program from the payer of a program.. costs will spiral out of control. The beneficiary will want the best available irregardless of cost – because they don’t have to pay.. and the payer will have to pay up. If you add in an intermediary like insurance company or government and you have disaster. The intermediary will see it as a way to make a profit (skim) off of the huge amounts of money crossing hands.. or in the case of a government, a way to hide the costs of pork, ‘special’ compensation.

As I have mentioned before, I am one of the laid-off, looking for a job people. I am also one of the ‘uninsured’. Interesting part is, I was also one of the ‘uninsured’ when I was working. It is by choice. Instead of paying the money to an insurance company, I invested it. Now that I am laid off, I still am effectively covered because of all of that money I saved up over the years. I don’t have to pay COBRA to be able to pay for doctor or hospital visits. Shortly before I was laid off, I became extremely ill and jaundiced. The cost wasn’t that bad. It turns out that I can get close to 30% discount for being a cash payer. My MRI cost less by about 36% than if it had been covered by insurance. Total cost to me for all the doctor visits and tests etc came to about $2100. Compare this to even a years worth of insurance and this one time that I was sicker than I have ever been, comes out relatively cheap compared to paying for insurance for one year. In the process, one of the doctors I was going to was ‘steering’ me to surgery, ignoring the sepsis/bacterial infection possibility and family history. It was easy for me to walk away from this doctor and pick another. I have been fine for over 1 year now.. which seems to confirm the first doctor as being wrong.

One thing I did learn from this was the surprising number of doctors that prefer dealing with insurance. It came out that with self-pays, the doctors had to justify the tests to the patient and the patient had the final say. With the insured, the doctors could rack up the tests (which in some cases have ‘paybacks’ for business) without any final say in many cases. I am not putting down all GPs here, just saying that the decisions made by some are questionable. There seems to be too much ‘overtesting’ and the surgery option comes up too quickly.

Interesting exercises:
1) Take the sum of all the health care payments with or without company co-pay over your life.. and look at the total cost vs est outlay. If you are feeling like needing a challenge, include estimated growth based upon S&P historical growth.
2) Do the same for Social Security..

In all, I found that paying directly and insuring for only catastrophic is actually the best way, even now. General insurance makes people feel ‘safe’.. but at a considerable cost. Those outstretched hands of the ‘Good Hands People’ are not there to help you, they are asking for more money…

[ucodegen]

On board member mentioned many posts ago, to the effect that, why was health care less expensive 10 years ago..

It is quite simple. Insurance. Same has happened to auto repair costs. I would even add that 30 years ago, the costs of health care considerably less than now. 30 years ago, most people paid directly and insured only for catastrophic injuries. The exception was in the government sector (gov employees including teachers)

Any time you separate the beneficiary of a program from the payer of a program.. costs will spiral out of control. The beneficiary will want the best available irregardless of cost – because they don’t have to pay.. and the payer will have to pay up. If you add in an intermediary like insurance company or government and you have disaster. The intermediary will see it as a way to make a profit (skim) off of the huge amounts of money crossing hands.. or in the case of a government, a way to hide the costs of pork, ‘special’ compensation.

As I have mentioned before, I am one of the laid-off, looking for a job people. I am also one of the ‘uninsured’. Interesting part is, I was also one of the ‘uninsured’ when I was working. It is by choice. Instead of paying the money to an insurance company, I invested it. Now that I am laid off, I still am effectively covered because of all of that money I saved up over the years. I don’t have to pay COBRA to be able to pay for doctor or hospital visits. Shortly before I was laid off, I became extremely ill and jaundiced. The cost wasn’t that bad. It turns out that I can get close to 30% discount for being a cash payer. My MRI cost less by about 36% than if it had been covered by insurance. Total cost to me for all the doctor visits and tests etc came to about $2100. Compare this to even a years worth of insurance and this one time that I was sicker than I have ever been, comes out relatively cheap compared to paying for insurance for one year. In the process, one of the doctors I was going to was ‘steering’ me to surgery, ignoring the sepsis/bacterial infection possibility and family history. It was easy for me to walk away from this doctor and pick another. I have been fine for over 1 year now.. which seems to confirm the first doctor as being wrong.

One thing I did learn from this was the surprising number of doctors that prefer dealing with insurance. It came out that with self-pays, the doctors had to justify the tests to the patient and the patient had the final say. With the insured, the doctors could rack up the tests (which in some cases have ‘paybacks’ for business) without any final say in many cases. I am not putting down all GPs here, just saying that the decisions made by some are questionable. There seems to be too much ‘overtesting’ and the surgery option comes up too quickly.

Interesting exercises:
1) Take the sum of all the health care payments with or without company co-pay over your life.. and look at the total cost vs est outlay. If you are feeling like needing a challenge, include estimated growth based upon S&P historical growth.
2) Do the same for Social Security..

In all, I found that paying directly and insuring for only catastrophic is actually the best way, even now. General insurance makes people feel ‘safe’.. but at a considerable cost. Those outstretched hands of the ‘Good Hands People’ are not there to help you, they are asking for more money…

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Ucodegen: Back in the day, I used to be a CFO for an insurance brokerage. During one of my many bouts of attempting to contain costs, I did a study for the five major California offices (SD, OC, LA, SF and Sacto) on warranty programs for office automation equipment (printers, faxes, copiers, etc).

We were spending over a hundred thousand per year on warranty programs for the various machines and I wanted to see what would happen if, rather than paying the warranty amount, I opted only to pay on a per call service basis.

The difference was shocking. In the offices I was directly responsible for (San Diego and Orange County), we went from spending over $20,000 per year on warranties to spending less than a $1,000 per year on a per call service basis.

Even when I added in the cost of servicing aging machines, it was still far cheaper and by an order of magnitude. The warranty programs were obviously a form of insurance, but, up until that point, I had never sat down and considered the true “cost” of maintaining that insurance. I would wager that health insurance, philosophically speaking, is exactly the same.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Ucodegen: Back in the day, I used to be a CFO for an insurance brokerage. During one of my many bouts of attempting to contain costs, I did a study for the five major California offices (SD, OC, LA, SF and Sacto) on warranty programs for office automation equipment (printers, faxes, copiers, etc).

We were spending over a hundred thousand per year on warranty programs for the various machines and I wanted to see what would happen if, rather than paying the warranty amount, I opted only to pay on a per call service basis.

The difference was shocking. In the offices I was directly responsible for (San Diego and Orange County), we went from spending over $20,000 per year on warranties to spending less than a $1,000 per year on a per call service basis.

Even when I added in the cost of servicing aging machines, it was still far cheaper and by an order of magnitude. The warranty programs were obviously a form of insurance, but, up until that point, I had never sat down and considered the true “cost” of maintaining that insurance. I would wager that health insurance, philosophically speaking, is exactly the same.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Ucodegen: Back in the day, I used to be a CFO for an insurance brokerage. During one of my many bouts of attempting to contain costs, I did a study for the five major California offices (SD, OC, LA, SF and Sacto) on warranty programs for office automation equipment (printers, faxes, copiers, etc).

We were spending over a hundred thousand per year on warranty programs for the various machines and I wanted to see what would happen if, rather than paying the warranty amount, I opted only to pay on a per call service basis.

The difference was shocking. In the offices I was directly responsible for (San Diego and Orange County), we went from spending over $20,000 per year on warranties to spending less than a $1,000 per year on a per call service basis.

Even when I added in the cost of servicing aging machines, it was still far cheaper and by an order of magnitude. The warranty programs were obviously a form of insurance, but, up until that point, I had never sat down and considered the true “cost” of maintaining that insurance. I would wager that health insurance, philosophically speaking, is exactly the same.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Ucodegen: Back in the day, I used to be a CFO for an insurance brokerage. During one of my many bouts of attempting to contain costs, I did a study for the five major California offices (SD, OC, LA, SF and Sacto) on warranty programs for office automation equipment (printers, faxes, copiers, etc).

We were spending over a hundred thousand per year on warranty programs for the various machines and I wanted to see what would happen if, rather than paying the warranty amount, I opted only to pay on a per call service basis.

The difference was shocking. In the offices I was directly responsible for (San Diego and Orange County), we went from spending over $20,000 per year on warranties to spending less than a $1,000 per year on a per call service basis.

Even when I added in the cost of servicing aging machines, it was still far cheaper and by an order of magnitude. The warranty programs were obviously a form of insurance, but, up until that point, I had never sat down and considered the true “cost” of maintaining that insurance. I would wager that health insurance, philosophically speaking, is exactly the same.

[Author]

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