Obama is the great hype machine

[Allan from Fallbrook]

LA_Renter: Some of that same “old crap” is on display on the Naomi Wolf thread. Leftover vestiges of the ’60s “Kulturkampf”, with some good old Cold War paranoia thrown in.

I agree with your assertion note to underestimate Obama’s surge, and the underlying reason for it.

I’d just like to see the younger generation (in my case, that’s anyone under 30) get fired up and involved. If Obama’s the guy, happy days. I don’t personally agree with his politics either, but if it’s a choice between he and Hillary…

[zk]

As this thread has already moved off its original topic, I won’t feel like I’m thread-jacking with this question:

Allan, I’d like to hear your ideas on the LDS. Specifically, I’ve always been curious why any religion or cult, even one as wacky as Heaven’s Gate, is considered wacky by other religious people. And the LDS, for some reason, seem to evoke a particularly strong claims of wackiness from others who believe in the Judeo-Christian god, and I’m curious why that is.

(Tone is hard to read on a forum, and I’m pretty weak at projecting the right tone even in person, so let me say that I’m not denigrating your or anybody’s beliefs. I am very curious about this topic, though, and I appreciate the opportunity to hear the opinions of an obviously intelligent, thoughtful person. That said,)

I mean, from the point of view of an objective atheist (me), all religions seem pretty much equally absurd. (Why, for instance, is it any less likely that there’s a spaceship behind a comet waiting to rescue you than that a man was resurrected from the dead by an all powerful being and that you will be saved for all eternity by that being if only you let that man into your heart?) But from the point of a person who (I’m making an assumption here) believes in a god (you), why do you find the Mormons any wackier than the Hindus or the Muslims? Or Heaven’s Gate? Or do you?

[zk]

As this thread has already moved off its original topic, I won’t feel like I’m thread-jacking with this question:

Allan, I’d like to hear your ideas on the LDS. Specifically, I’ve always been curious why any religion or cult, even one as wacky as Heaven’s Gate, is considered wacky by other religious people. And the LDS, for some reason, seem to evoke a particularly strong claims of wackiness from others who believe in the Judeo-Christian god, and I’m curious why that is.

(Tone is hard to read on a forum, and I’m pretty weak at projecting the right tone even in person, so let me say that I’m not denigrating your or anybody’s beliefs. I am very curious about this topic, though, and I appreciate the opportunity to hear the opinions of an obviously intelligent, thoughtful person. That said,)

I mean, from the point of view of an objective atheist (me), all religions seem pretty much equally absurd. (Why, for instance, is it any less likely that there’s a spaceship behind a comet waiting to rescue you than that a man was resurrected from the dead by an all powerful being and that you will be saved for all eternity by that being if only you let that man into your heart?) But from the point of a person who (I’m making an assumption here) believes in a god (you), why do you find the Mormons any wackier than the Hindus or the Muslims? Or Heaven’s Gate? Or do you?

[zk]

As this thread has already moved off its original topic, I won’t feel like I’m thread-jacking with this question:

Allan, I’d like to hear your ideas on the LDS. Specifically, I’ve always been curious why any religion or cult, even one as wacky as Heaven’s Gate, is considered wacky by other religious people. And the LDS, for some reason, seem to evoke a particularly strong claims of wackiness from others who believe in the Judeo-Christian god, and I’m curious why that is.

(Tone is hard to read on a forum, and I’m pretty weak at projecting the right tone even in person, so let me say that I’m not denigrating your or anybody’s beliefs. I am very curious about this topic, though, and I appreciate the opportunity to hear the opinions of an obviously intelligent, thoughtful person. That said,)

I mean, from the point of view of an objective atheist (me), all religions seem pretty much equally absurd. (Why, for instance, is it any less likely that there’s a spaceship behind a comet waiting to rescue you than that a man was resurrected from the dead by an all powerful being and that you will be saved for all eternity by that being if only you let that man into your heart?) But from the point of a person who (I’m making an assumption here) believes in a god (you), why do you find the Mormons any wackier than the Hindus or the Muslims? Or Heaven’s Gate? Or do you?

[zk]

As this thread has already moved off its original topic, I won’t feel like I’m thread-jacking with this question:

Allan, I’d like to hear your ideas on the LDS. Specifically, I’ve always been curious why any religion or cult, even one as wacky as Heaven’s Gate, is considered wacky by other religious people. And the LDS, for some reason, seem to evoke a particularly strong claims of wackiness from others who believe in the Judeo-Christian god, and I’m curious why that is.

(Tone is hard to read on a forum, and I’m pretty weak at projecting the right tone even in person, so let me say that I’m not denigrating your or anybody’s beliefs. I am very curious about this topic, though, and I appreciate the opportunity to hear the opinions of an obviously intelligent, thoughtful person. That said,)

I mean, from the point of view of an objective atheist (me), all religions seem pretty much equally absurd. (Why, for instance, is it any less likely that there’s a spaceship behind a comet waiting to rescue you than that a man was resurrected from the dead by an all powerful being and that you will be saved for all eternity by that being if only you let that man into your heart?) But from the point of a person who (I’m making an assumption here) believes in a god (you), why do you find the Mormons any wackier than the Hindus or the Muslims? Or Heaven’s Gate? Or do you?

[zk]

As this thread has already moved off its original topic, I won’t feel like I’m thread-jacking with this question:

Allan, I’d like to hear your ideas on the LDS. Specifically, I’ve always been curious why any religion or cult, even one as wacky as Heaven’s Gate, is considered wacky by other religious people. And the LDS, for some reason, seem to evoke a particularly strong claims of wackiness from others who believe in the Judeo-Christian god, and I’m curious why that is.

(Tone is hard to read on a forum, and I’m pretty weak at projecting the right tone even in person, so let me say that I’m not denigrating your or anybody’s beliefs. I am very curious about this topic, though, and I appreciate the opportunity to hear the opinions of an obviously intelligent, thoughtful person. That said,)

I mean, from the point of view of an objective atheist (me), all religions seem pretty much equally absurd. (Why, for instance, is it any less likely that there’s a spaceship behind a comet waiting to rescue you than that a man was resurrected from the dead by an all powerful being and that you will be saved for all eternity by that being if only you let that man into your heart?) But from the point of a person who (I’m making an assumption here) believes in a god (you), why do you find the Mormons any wackier than the Hindus or the Muslims? Or Heaven’s Gate? Or do you?

[Dukehorn]

As a person of color, I’d like toss in my two cents.

I’d like other Asians to toss in their two cents because I’ve personally experienced racism and I know what I’ve encountered is not half as bad as what blacks encounter in the US. I’m not discounting what whites have to say on that issue, but it is remarkable the number of whites conservatives that pretend that racism isn’t an issue. Just because you say you aren’t a racist doesn’t make it true. And it’s not a strawman argument when one initiates a debate with a comment that the left wing loves melanin to examine the possible corollary, that the right wing hates it.

First off, in another thread here, I had to respond when someone mocked Obama for being editor of the Harvard Law Review when that same person was willing to vote for someone who scraped by with gentlemen’s Cs while in school. Why does a black who does well in school get called out possibly on affirmative action grounds but some white who is an obvious legacy candidate gets a pass for doing poorly in school?

As for “isolated” instances of racism, how many personal experiences does someone have to experience to determine that our society isn’t color-blind? 5, 10, 15, 50? As I’ve grown older and moved from the Deep South to California, my personal experiences with racism have diminished, but is that a function of overall society or me moving to a more diverse part of the country and my work/personal group being composed entirely of folks with graduate degrees?

I don’t know the answer, but let’s just say I was shocked to see an Indian Sikh colleague of mine called a sand nigger back in 2003 when he and I were on the campus of a North Carolina public university to give a presentation. I guess the anti-PC folks would claim that it’s just free speech and not a hate issue, but I guess you just had to be there.

[Dukehorn]

As a person of color, I’d like toss in my two cents.

I’d like other Asians to toss in their two cents because I’ve personally experienced racism and I know what I’ve encountered is not half as bad as what blacks encounter in the US. I’m not discounting what whites have to say on that issue, but it is remarkable the number of whites conservatives that pretend that racism isn’t an issue. Just because you say you aren’t a racist doesn’t make it true. And it’s not a strawman argument when one initiates a debate with a comment that the left wing loves melanin to examine the possible corollary, that the right wing hates it.

First off, in another thread here, I had to respond when someone mocked Obama for being editor of the Harvard Law Review when that same person was willing to vote for someone who scraped by with gentlemen’s Cs while in school. Why does a black who does well in school get called out possibly on affirmative action grounds but some white who is an obvious legacy candidate gets a pass for doing poorly in school?

As for “isolated” instances of racism, how many personal experiences does someone have to experience to determine that our society isn’t color-blind? 5, 10, 15, 50? As I’ve grown older and moved from the Deep South to California, my personal experiences with racism have diminished, but is that a function of overall society or me moving to a more diverse part of the country and my work/personal group being composed entirely of folks with graduate degrees?

I don’t know the answer, but let’s just say I was shocked to see an Indian Sikh colleague of mine called a sand nigger back in 2003 when he and I were on the campus of a North Carolina public university to give a presentation. I guess the anti-PC folks would claim that it’s just free speech and not a hate issue, but I guess you just had to be there.

[Dukehorn]

As a person of color, I’d like toss in my two cents.

I’d like other Asians to toss in their two cents because I’ve personally experienced racism and I know what I’ve encountered is not half as bad as what blacks encounter in the US. I’m not discounting what whites have to say on that issue, but it is remarkable the number of whites conservatives that pretend that racism isn’t an issue. Just because you say you aren’t a racist doesn’t make it true. And it’s not a strawman argument when one initiates a debate with a comment that the left wing loves melanin to examine the possible corollary, that the right wing hates it.

First off, in another thread here, I had to respond when someone mocked Obama for being editor of the Harvard Law Review when that same person was willing to vote for someone who scraped by with gentlemen’s Cs while in school. Why does a black who does well in school get called out possibly on affirmative action grounds but some white who is an obvious legacy candidate gets a pass for doing poorly in school?

As for “isolated” instances of racism, how many personal experiences does someone have to experience to determine that our society isn’t color-blind? 5, 10, 15, 50? As I’ve grown older and moved from the Deep South to California, my personal experiences with racism have diminished, but is that a function of overall society or me moving to a more diverse part of the country and my work/personal group being composed entirely of folks with graduate degrees?

I don’t know the answer, but let’s just say I was shocked to see an Indian Sikh colleague of mine called a sand nigger back in 2003 when he and I were on the campus of a North Carolina public university to give a presentation. I guess the anti-PC folks would claim that it’s just free speech and not a hate issue, but I guess you just had to be there.

[Dukehorn]

As a person of color, I’d like toss in my two cents.

I’d like other Asians to toss in their two cents because I’ve personally experienced racism and I know what I’ve encountered is not half as bad as what blacks encounter in the US. I’m not discounting what whites have to say on that issue, but it is remarkable the number of whites conservatives that pretend that racism isn’t an issue. Just because you say you aren’t a racist doesn’t make it true. And it’s not a strawman argument when one initiates a debate with a comment that the left wing loves melanin to examine the possible corollary, that the right wing hates it.

First off, in another thread here, I had to respond when someone mocked Obama for being editor of the Harvard Law Review when that same person was willing to vote for someone who scraped by with gentlemen’s Cs while in school. Why does a black who does well in school get called out possibly on affirmative action grounds but some white who is an obvious legacy candidate gets a pass for doing poorly in school?

As for “isolated” instances of racism, how many personal experiences does someone have to experience to determine that our society isn’t color-blind? 5, 10, 15, 50? As I’ve grown older and moved from the Deep South to California, my personal experiences with racism have diminished, but is that a function of overall society or me moving to a more diverse part of the country and my work/personal group being composed entirely of folks with graduate degrees?

I don’t know the answer, but let’s just say I was shocked to see an Indian Sikh colleague of mine called a sand nigger back in 2003 when he and I were on the campus of a North Carolina public university to give a presentation. I guess the anti-PC folks would claim that it’s just free speech and not a hate issue, but I guess you just had to be there.

[Dukehorn]

As a person of color, I’d like toss in my two cents.

I’d like other Asians to toss in their two cents because I’ve personally experienced racism and I know what I’ve encountered is not half as bad as what blacks encounter in the US. I’m not discounting what whites have to say on that issue, but it is remarkable the number of whites conservatives that pretend that racism isn’t an issue. Just because you say you aren’t a racist doesn’t make it true. And it’s not a strawman argument when one initiates a debate with a comment that the left wing loves melanin to examine the possible corollary, that the right wing hates it.

First off, in another thread here, I had to respond when someone mocked Obama for being editor of the Harvard Law Review when that same person was willing to vote for someone who scraped by with gentlemen’s Cs while in school. Why does a black who does well in school get called out possibly on affirmative action grounds but some white who is an obvious legacy candidate gets a pass for doing poorly in school?

As for “isolated” instances of racism, how many personal experiences does someone have to experience to determine that our society isn’t color-blind? 5, 10, 15, 50? As I’ve grown older and moved from the Deep South to California, my personal experiences with racism have diminished, but is that a function of overall society or me moving to a more diverse part of the country and my work/personal group being composed entirely of folks with graduate degrees?

I don’t know the answer, but let’s just say I was shocked to see an Indian Sikh colleague of mine called a sand nigger back in 2003 when he and I were on the campus of a North Carolina public university to give a presentation. I guess the anti-PC folks would claim that it’s just free speech and not a hate issue, but I guess you just had to be there.

[zk]

Dukehorn, you’re pretty angry for an Asian dude!

(Yes, that’s an attempt at humor, racially stereotyping a guy who just railed about racial issues)

is that a function of overall society or me moving to a more diverse part of the country and my work/personal group being composed entirely of folks with graduate degrees?

In my opinion, it’s definitely the latter.

Whenever I go back east, I’m struck by the difference in racial attitudes. One might think “struck” is a strong word; the differences are subtle. But just because they’re subtle doesn’t mean they aren’t deep or powerful or meaningful.

I’d wager that the today’s California children are grown, they will be even more colorblind than the current generation of Californians. When my daughter was in preschool, there were 20 kids there, and maybe 6 of them were white. My daughter and several others are mixed, and there were several each of Arabs, South Asians, East Asians and a hispanic or two. Those children really didn’t seem to notice that much who was Chinese or who was middle eastern.

I actually agree with whoever said that humans by nature are afraid of those who are different from us. I think we evolved to be that way. And in modern times, that fear is best overcome/removed in two ways. One is exposure to those of other races at an early age. The other is education. Californians have for quite some time (and even more so now) associated from a young age with those of other races.

So, if that’s all correct, you’ll always have more racism in homogenous or segregated areas with low levels of education.

I guess the anti-PC folks would claim that it’s just free speech and not a hate issue, but I guess you just had to be there.

I say it’s a free speech and a hate issue. Sure, if that ignorant fool wants to call somebody a name like that, he’s free to do so. And he’s also a hateful person. And he’s doomed to the misery of being a hateful person, probably for the rest of his life. Leave him alone to suffer the fate he’s earned for himself.

[zk]

Dukehorn, you’re pretty angry for an Asian dude!

(Yes, that’s an attempt at humor, racially stereotyping a guy who just railed about racial issues)

is that a function of overall society or me moving to a more diverse part of the country and my work/personal group being composed entirely of folks with graduate degrees?

In my opinion, it’s definitely the latter.

Whenever I go back east, I’m struck by the difference in racial attitudes. One might think “struck” is a strong word; the differences are subtle. But just because they’re subtle doesn’t mean they aren’t deep or powerful or meaningful.

I’d wager that the today’s California children are grown, they will be even more colorblind than the current generation of Californians. When my daughter was in preschool, there were 20 kids there, and maybe 6 of them were white. My daughter and several others are mixed, and there were several each of Arabs, South Asians, East Asians and a hispanic or two. Those children really didn’t seem to notice that much who was Chinese or who was middle eastern.

I actually agree with whoever said that humans by nature are afraid of those who are different from us. I think we evolved to be that way. And in modern times, that fear is best overcome/removed in two ways. One is exposure to those of other races at an early age. The other is education. Californians have for quite some time (and even more so now) associated from a young age with those of other races.

So, if that’s all correct, you’ll always have more racism in homogenous or segregated areas with low levels of education.

I guess the anti-PC folks would claim that it’s just free speech and not a hate issue, but I guess you just had to be there.

I say it’s a free speech and a hate issue. Sure, if that ignorant fool wants to call somebody a name like that, he’s free to do so. And he’s also a hateful person. And he’s doomed to the misery of being a hateful person, probably for the rest of his life. Leave him alone to suffer the fate he’s earned for himself.

[zk]

Dukehorn, you’re pretty angry for an Asian dude!

(Yes, that’s an attempt at humor, racially stereotyping a guy who just railed about racial issues)

is that a function of overall society or me moving to a more diverse part of the country and my work/personal group being composed entirely of folks with graduate degrees?

In my opinion, it’s definitely the latter.

Whenever I go back east, I’m struck by the difference in racial attitudes. One might think “struck” is a strong word; the differences are subtle. But just because they’re subtle doesn’t mean they aren’t deep or powerful or meaningful.

I’d wager that the today’s California children are grown, they will be even more colorblind than the current generation of Californians. When my daughter was in preschool, there were 20 kids there, and maybe 6 of them were white. My daughter and several others are mixed, and there were several each of Arabs, South Asians, East Asians and a hispanic or two. Those children really didn’t seem to notice that much who was Chinese or who was middle eastern.

I actually agree with whoever said that humans by nature are afraid of those who are different from us. I think we evolved to be that way. And in modern times, that fear is best overcome/removed in two ways. One is exposure to those of other races at an early age. The other is education. Californians have for quite some time (and even more so now) associated from a young age with those of other races.

So, if that’s all correct, you’ll always have more racism in homogenous or segregated areas with low levels of education.

I guess the anti-PC folks would claim that it’s just free speech and not a hate issue, but I guess you just had to be there.

I say it’s a free speech and a hate issue. Sure, if that ignorant fool wants to call somebody a name like that, he’s free to do so. And he’s also a hateful person. And he’s doomed to the misery of being a hateful person, probably for the rest of his life. Leave him alone to suffer the fate he’s earned for himself.

[zk]

Dukehorn, you’re pretty angry for an Asian dude!

(Yes, that’s an attempt at humor, racially stereotyping a guy who just railed about racial issues)

is that a function of overall society or me moving to a more diverse part of the country and my work/personal group being composed entirely of folks with graduate degrees?

In my opinion, it’s definitely the latter.

Whenever I go back east, I’m struck by the difference in racial attitudes. One might think “struck” is a strong word; the differences are subtle. But just because they’re subtle doesn’t mean they aren’t deep or powerful or meaningful.

I’d wager that the today’s California children are grown, they will be even more colorblind than the current generation of Californians. When my daughter was in preschool, there were 20 kids there, and maybe 6 of them were white. My daughter and several others are mixed, and there were several each of Arabs, South Asians, East Asians and a hispanic or two. Those children really didn’t seem to notice that much who was Chinese or who was middle eastern.

I actually agree with whoever said that humans by nature are afraid of those who are different from us. I think we evolved to be that way. And in modern times, that fear is best overcome/removed in two ways. One is exposure to those of other races at an early age. The other is education. Californians have for quite some time (and even more so now) associated from a young age with those of other races.

So, if that’s all correct, you’ll always have more racism in homogenous or segregated areas with low levels of education.

I guess the anti-PC folks would claim that it’s just free speech and not a hate issue, but I guess you just had to be there.

I say it’s a free speech and a hate issue. Sure, if that ignorant fool wants to call somebody a name like that, he’s free to do so. And he’s also a hateful person. And he’s doomed to the misery of being a hateful person, probably for the rest of his life. Leave him alone to suffer the fate he’s earned for himself.

[Author]

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