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February 1, 2012 at 1:03 PM #737156February 1, 2012 at 1:18 PM #737158
Allan from Fallbrook
Participant[quote=briansd1]Allan, mandate or overeach? That is the question.
I say that Obama had a mandate so that’s why I feel that his panchant for bi-partisanship let some good opportunities pass by.
On the Patriot Act, Guantanomo, etc… you repeatedly said that Obama should have ended those policies. Do you have believe that Obama had a mandate to do so?[/quote]
Brian: Did Obama have a “mandate” to end the destruction of our civil liberties? Is that an honest-to-God fucking question? Seriously?
I could give a flying fuck if the president has a mandate or not: I expect him to protect my individual liberty and my constitutionally guaranteed civil rights. Mandate? Are you for real? You have opined previously that Obama was right for continuing these policies lest he appear “soft” on the War on Terror. What supreme idiocy is that? Yep, better to destroy our rights than be perceived as somehow soft. Do you remember Ben Franklin’s dictum on security versus liberty?
As to Obamacare: Given the public polling numbers on Obamacare’s popularity, do you think it was mandate or overreach? At less than 38% popularity, it appears like overreach to me.
February 1, 2012 at 1:41 PM #737162Anonymous
Guest[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Do you remember Ben Franklin’s dictum on security versus liberty?[/quote]
Yup, Ben said “it is better to sacrifice a little liberty so that the people who will take away all your liberty don’t get into power next election.”
Or something like that.
Allan, you are seriously citing popularity polls?
If anyone’s Constitutionally guaranteed civil rights have been violated, then they can take it up with the Supreme Court. They are the ones that limit presidential “mandates” and get to declare “overreach.” (They did just that recently, big time.)
February 1, 2012 at 1:41 PM #737161briansd1
GuestAllan, I agree with you that Obama should end “the destruction our civil liberties” that are Patriot Acts and Guantanomo. I blame the Republicans for taking us in that direction and implementing those civil liberties killing policies during Bush. I do not fault Obama for not ending those policies forthwith.
There’s an appropriate time for everything, and oftentimes, one must delay some priorties to achieve one’s goals.
As to Obama Really Cares, I do believe that HCR will be seen as a major step in the right direction of controlling health care costs. Time will tell…
February 1, 2012 at 2:32 PM #737165Participant[quote=briansd1]Allan, I agree with you that Obama should end “the destruction our civil liberties” that are Patriot Acts and Guantanomo. I blame the Republicans for taking us in that direction and implementing those civil liberties killing policies during Bush. I do not fault Obama for not ending those policies forthwith.
There’s an appropriate time for everything, and oftentimes, one must delay some priorties to achieve one’s goals.
[/quote]
Brian: While the Republicans are largely responsible for Patriot I/II and Gitmo, the Dems have been just as responsible for other and just as dangerous policies and programs, including FISA (1978), NSA’s ECHELON (early 1960s) and Carnivore (vastly expanded under Clinton in 1994) programs and extraordinary rendition (started during the Clinton Administration).
When it comes to eroding your rights and liberties, it’s an equal opportunity ballgame for both the GOP and Dems, as evidenced by Obama’s latest waffle on NDAA.
February 1, 2012 at 2:35 PM #737166Participant[quote=pri_dk][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Do you remember Ben Franklin’s dictum on security versus liberty?[/quote]
Yup, Ben said “it is better to sacrifice a little liberty so that the people who will take away all your liberty don’t get into power next election.”
Or something like that.
[/quote]
Pri: How many of your rights and liberties need to be seriously undermined before you stand up and take notice? I know you’re largely here for the witty repartee and the unalloyed joy of tweaking noses, but we as a nation are watching idly as the whole house is getting pulled down and we seem only able to muster snarky comments.
February 1, 2012 at 3:02 PM #737168SK in CV
Participant[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
As to Obamacare: Given the public polling numbers on Obamacare’s popularity, do you think it was mandate or overreach? At less than 38% popularity, it appears like overreach to me.[/quote]I think it was neither. I’ve said before, congressional dems suck at politics. Polling on almost every feature of the ACA is positive (with the exception of the mandate). So the republican’s goal of making “Obamacare” his waterloo was at least temporarily successful. It’s messaging was effective. Most people disliked Obamacare, but they love the features of health care reform.
On the larger question..did he have a mandate? Eh. Healthcare reform was part of his campaign platform. So was exiting Iraq and ramping up Afghanistan. He won. Irrespective of the margin, I think the argument can be made that if he campaigned on those issues and won, he had a mandate.
What else is a politician going to do? Say “I won, but I didn’t win by that many votes, so I’m not really gonna do shit while I’m here”?
Somewhat relatedly, I’m sure Rick Santorum will be looking for a mandate as soon as he drops out. Probably hasn’t had one for at least the last year.
February 1, 2012 at 5:52 PM #737196no_such_reality
Participant[quote=pri_dk]If anyone’s Constitutionally guaranteed civil rights have been violated, then they can take it up with the Supreme Court. They are the ones that limit presidential “mandates” and get to declare “overreach.” (They did just that recently, big time.)[/quote]
Would that be wire taps or GPS? At least SOPA seems to be dying.
As for Gitmo, the patriot act, what a sell out. Honestly the one respectable and easy thing I would expect from a Democratic president and it sold it out for political points.
As for the Wars, well, three years in and on Bush’s orignal timeline, it’s over… I sure hope there are eye opening disclosures in 40 years in the memoirs.
Oh wait, let’s do Amnesty, that worked in the 1980s right, we have almost not illegal immigration problem now after doing an amnesty plan back then right?
Obamacare? The republicans are stupid. The electorate is stupid. If they’re too stupid figure out that if a job can’t provide health care, then it can’t fulfill a basic need of civilized society and frankly, we’re better off with less crap that is cheap because everyone envolve is doing without basic necessities. Frankly, we didn’t need Obamacare and 1400 pages. We needed a one sentence law, if you wish to sell insurance in American, their is one risk group, an american, no pre-existing conditions, no risks groups. One group nation wide. Insurance is about spreading risk, the cost of people not having insurance costs you more than the cost of having them in your insurance plan. Then expand medicare to be open to all and move the medicare tax from a payroll tax to an income tax on all income.
too much of our society is idled because of the insurance boondoggle. People are in corporate and government jobs because they are afraid to leave due to not getting insurance or insane rates.
February 1, 2012 at 7:01 PM #737199scaredyclassic
ParticipantCivil liberties, meh. More than half of black male adults are in custody or on probation or parole.
There were more free African Americans pre civil war than there are today.
We incarcerate people at a rate way beyond any western nation. There’s stats in this weeks new yorker. I think we may have more people in custody than during the height of soviet communism.
It’s been a police state for a while.
February 2, 2012 at 5:07 AM #737226Guest[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Pri: How many of your rights and liberties need to be seriously undermined before you stand up and take notice? I know you’re largely here for the witty repartee and the unalloyed joy of tweaking noses, but we as a nation are watching idly as the whole house is getting pulled down and we seem only able to muster snarky comments.[/quote]
Allan, I have noticed.
I’ve noticed that everyone here has nothing to offer but comments.
No one has offered a solution or even a suggestion – what do we actually do?
For my part, last year I started sending checks to the ACLU. These problems have to be resolved in the courts, and the ACLU is one of the organizations that can actually make it happen. My donations are a drop in the bucket, but it is something.
Walter makes an important point. There are a lot of civil liberties issues in this country, and the stuff you mention are the least of them, IMO. I fear my local police department far more than I fear the CIA or NSA. And I’m a white guy.
February 2, 2012 at 6:47 AM #737229ParticipantThe Caging of America
http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2012/01/30/120130crat_atlarge_gopnik
February 2, 2012 at 9:00 AM #737243markmax33
Guest[quote=pri_dk][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Pri: How many of your rights and liberties need to be seriously undermined before you stand up and take notice? I know you’re largely here for the witty repartee and the unalloyed joy of tweaking noses, but we as a nation are watching idly as the whole house is getting pulled down and we seem only able to muster snarky comments.[/quote]
Allan, I have noticed.
I’ve noticed that everyone here has nothing to offer but comments.
No one has offered a solution or even a suggestion – what do we actually do?
For my part, last year I started sending checks to the ACLU. These problems have to be resolved in the courts, and the ACLU is one of the organizations that can actually make it happen. My donations are a drop in the bucket, but it is something.
Walter makes an important point. There are a lot of civil liberties issues in this country, and the stuff you mention are the least of them, IMO. I fear my local police department far more than I fear the CIA or NSA. And I’m a white guy.[/quote]
Stop defending the mainstream candidates that are taking your liberties would be a good start! They are all the same you know. Obamney.
February 2, 2012 at 12:01 PM #737260Participant[quote=pri_dk][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Pri: How many of your rights and liberties need to be seriously undermined before you stand up and take notice? I know you’re largely here for the witty repartee and the unalloyed joy of tweaking noses, but we as a nation are watching idly as the whole house is getting pulled down and we seem only able to muster snarky comments.[/quote]
Allan, I have noticed.
I’ve noticed that everyone here has nothing to offer but comments.
No one has offered a solution or even a suggestion – what do we actually do?
For my part, last year I started sending checks to the ACLU. These problems have to be resolved in the courts, and the ACLU is one of the organizations that can actually make it happen. My donations are a drop in the bucket, but it is something.
Walter makes an important point. There are a lot of civil liberties issues in this country, and the stuff you mention are the least of them, IMO. I fear my local police department far more than I fear the CIA or NSA. And I’m a white guy.[/quote]
Pri: What to do? GET INVOLVED. I’d be curious as to how many folks on this board even know who their representatives are. Writing checks to the ACLU is a good start. Do you also participate on any of the ACLU advisory councils on civil liberties? Take advantage of the ACLU’s letter writing campaigns?
As to Walter’s point on incarceration: It is all of a piece; it’s all interconnected. There is no disconnect between what’s happening with the NSA, CIA, DHS, etc and the state and local law enforcement community. Where do you think state and local law enforcement get their data? Or their money for all those new, shiny militaristic toys they run around with? Yup, also part of the American Security State’s “War on Terror”.
February 2, 2012 at 12:03 PM #737262Participant[quote=walterwhite]Civil liberties, meh. More than half of black male adults are in custody or on probation or parole.
There were more free African Americans pre civil war than there are today.
We incarcerate people at a rate way beyond any western nation. There’s stats in this weeks new yorker. I think we may have more people in custody than during the height of soviet communism.
It’s been a police state for a while.[/quote]
Scaredy: Meh? Coming from an attorney, that’s priceless. So, it’s so bad we should just throw up our hands and accept it? Keep quiet and hope they don’t notice us?
“Better to die on your feet than live on your knees”.
February 2, 2012 at 12:54 PM #737264Guest[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
As to Walter’s point on incarceration: It is all of a piece; it’s all interconnected. There is no disconnect between what’s happening with the NSA, CIA, DHS, etc and the state and local law enforcement community. Where do you think state and local law enforcement get their data? Or their money for all those new, shiny militaristic toys they run around with? Yup, also part of the American Security State’s “War on Terror”.[/quote]
Yes, Allan, I agree.
The Soviet Union went bankrupt feeding its security apparatus. We might suffer the same fate.
As you say, it’s all interconnected. It’s connected to our debt and budget problems.
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