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njtosd.
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October 24, 2015 at 9:30 PM #790659October 24, 2015 at 9:39 PM #790660
NotCranky
ParticipantYou think boys and girls don’t mix in 2015 and you call it “misogynistic”? Wow!
October 24, 2015 at 9:54 PM #790661scaredyclassic
ParticipantIn general whatever happens it’s a guys fault.
October 25, 2015 at 10:45 PM #790671njtosd
Participant[quote=CA renter]Is our society becoming even more misogynistic these days? Back when I was growing up in the 70s and 80s, we had fully mixed-gender groups of friends. I don’t ever remember a single instance when boys and girls were segregated from one another. Maybe it’s just my personality (not “girly”) and/or the groups of friends I’ve associated with over the years, but this was my experience in different regions, and in different social settings (different neighborhoods, different schools, even different countries).
We now have three daughters and have noticed that the boys and girls in our neighborhood and other social groups have become EXTREMELY segregated. Worst of all, we’ve noticed that it’s the parents who are not only encouraging this, but are forcing this on their children.
Is this a new trend, or is it a San Diego thing? Again, I’m from L.A., and we just didn’t have this sort of thing, but when I moved to SD, I noticed it even among our married friends. When we would all get together, the men would peel off from the women, and vice-versa. It was so obvious and deliberate, we just stopped hanging out with those people. Now, my DH and I are watching this situation with our kids, and it’s making us very uncomfortable.
Doe anyone actually think this is healthy for our kids? What would we be saying about this if we were talking about race or ethnicity? Why is gender the only category where discrimination and segregation are not only condoned, but encouraged? Why would anybody think this is okay?[/quote]
CA Renter – don’t you have a group of women you like to hang around with? Book club (or as my husband calls it, drinking club), hiking group, bunko, whatever?. I’m perfectly comfortable hanging out with mixed groups, or even groups of men (my profession is becoming more mixed, but I was the token female when I started), but I am most at ease with a group of female friends (and these days, frankly, female friends who are also moms). I feel like it’s a matter of common experience. I don’t see misogyny.
October 26, 2015 at 6:33 AM #790673Participant[quote=njtosd][quote=CA renter]Is our society becoming even more misogynistic these days? Back when I was growing up in the 70s and 80s, we had fully mixed-gender groups of friends. I don’t ever remember a single instance when boys and girls were segregated from one another. Maybe it’s just my personality (not “girly”) and/or the groups of friends I’ve associated with over the years, but this was my experience in different regions, and in different social settings (different neighborhoods, different schools, even different countries).
We now have three daughters and have noticed that the boys and girls in our neighborhood and other social groups have become EXTREMELY segregated. Worst of all, we’ve noticed that it’s the parents who are not only encouraging this, but are forcing this on their children.
Is this a new trend, or is it a San Diego thing? Again, I’m from L.A., and we just didn’t have this sort of thing, but when I moved to SD, I noticed it even among our married friends. When we would all get together, the men would peel off from the women, and vice-versa. It was so obvious and deliberate, we just stopped hanging out with those people. Now, my DH and I are watching this situation with our kids, and it’s making us very uncomfortable.
Doe anyone actually think this is healthy for our kids? What would we be saying about this if we were talking about race or ethnicity? Why is gender the only category where discrimination and segregation are not only condoned, but encouraged? Why would anybody think this is okay?[/quote]
CA Renter – don’t you have a group of women you like to hang around with? Book club (or as my husband calls it, drinking club), hiking group, bunko, whatever?. I’m perfectly comfortable hanging out with mixed groups, or even groups of men (my profession is becoming more mixed, but I was the token female when I started), but I am most at ease with a group of female friends (and these days, frankly, female friends who are also moms). I feel like it’s a matter of common experience. I don’t see misogyny.[/quote]
But I often see misandry. Or at least a lot of detailed complain on the failures of men. Men may complain about women but not with the depth and detail that women I hear delve into…
October 26, 2015 at 10:27 AM #790678all
ParticipantA group of 8-11y.o. boys are playing street soccer. An 8yo commits a foul (looked like fair tackle to me, but never mind) on an 11yo. The 11yo goes into the house to complain to his mother, who in turn comes out to demand an apology for his 11yo son from the 8yo.
The way I see it, there is a big b*tch and a little b*tch in the story, and the big b*tch is doing no favor to the little b*tch, who is asking to get punished by his peers. I told my son he is not allowed to play soccer with the 11yo, or to complain to me if loses the ball because he sucks at the game.
October 26, 2015 at 4:12 PM #790682CA renter
Participant[quote=Blogstar]You think boys and girls don’t mix in 2015 and you call it “misogynistic”? Wow![/quote]
What if we changed it to say this:
“You think whites and blacks don’t mix in 2015 and you call it “racist”? Wow!
What, exactly, are you surprised by? That it appears as though boys and girls are more segregated today than when we were growing up; or that, if true, it would be considered misogynistic?
October 26, 2015 at 4:34 PM #790683Participant[quote=njtosd]
CA Renter – don’t you have a group of women you like to hang around with? Book club (or as my husband calls it, drinking club), hiking group, bunko, whatever?. I’m perfectly comfortable hanging out with mixed groups, or even groups of men (my profession is becoming more mixed, but I was the token female when I started), but I am most at ease with a group of female friends (and these days, frankly, female friends who are also moms). I feel like it’s a matter of common experience. I don’t see misogyny.[/quote]
I have female friends, but we either hang out in mixed-gender groups, or spend time one-on-one, as I do with some of my male friends. I have never in my life spent time with an all-female group where men were intentionally excluded. Some of my female friends do hang out in groups like this, and they have invited me to join them, but I don’t hang out in groups that exclude others (whether it’s based on gender, gender preference, race, ethnicity, religion, political affiliation, age, physical ability, etc.), so I always politely decline the invitation.
I’ve always enjoyed people who come from different backgrounds and who bring different perspectives to the table. Age is another big one where I think people are missing the boat; older people bring a wealth of knowledge and experience with them, but many people tend to exclude them because they “aren’t cool.” My DH and I have friends who range in age from young adulthood to people in their 80s and 90s. There is only one trait that I will use to exclude others, and that is if someone is of bad character/not a good person — a person who seeks to exploit or take advantage of others, who is inconsiderate of others, or who looks down on those who might be in a less advantageous position in life.
As for having common experience, I’ve often found that I have more in common with men than with women. Along the same lines, over half of my closest female friends are childless; some married, some single. Perhaps it’s because I don’t really focus on the day-to-day personal stuff in conversation. I like to talk about issues like we do here on Piggington’s (a perfect example of the type of group I like to hang out with in real life, which is why I’ve spent over a decade here and on other similar sites). Even my conversations with my DH tend to be more like the conversations we have here.
October 26, 2015 at 4:41 PM #790685Participant[quote=all]A group of 8-11y.o. boys are playing street soccer. An 8yo commits a foul (looked like fair tackle to me, but never mind) on an 11yo. The 11yo goes into the house to complain to his mother, who in turn comes out to demand an apology for his 11yo son from the 8yo.
The way I see it, there is a big b*tch and a little b*tch in the story, and the big b*tch is doing no favor to the little b*tch, who is asking to get punished by his peers. I told my son he is not allowed to play soccer with the 11yo, or to complain to me if loses the ball because he sucks at the game.[/quote]
I’ve seen fathers do the same thing. It’s not gender-based, IMHO.
But I agree that kids should be left to sort things out for themselves, for the most part.
October 26, 2015 at 4:41 PM #790684Participant[quote=scaredyclassic]In general whatever happens it’s a guys fault.[/quote]
No, but you’ve got to admit that the group who has held power over the other throughout human history (even to this day) might be more inclined to perpetuate the actions, behaviors, and beliefs that are systemic in our global society.
October 26, 2015 at 5:07 PM #790687FlyerInHi
Guest[quote=CA renter]
No, but you’ve got to admit that the group who has held power over the other throughout human history (even to this day) might be more inclined to perpetuate the actions, behaviors, and beliefs that are systemic in our global society.[/quote]
CAr, power, wealth and privilege can accumulate within race. So with regard to race, I agree with you.
But, as a whole, men have sons and daughters equally. I don’t see a misoginistic inter-generational transfer of power.
Math wise, for your argument to work, women would have to pass on misoginy as much as men.October 26, 2015 at 10:16 PM #790693zk
Participant[quote=CA renter][quote=Blogstar]You think boys and girls don’t mix in 2015 and you call it “misogynistic”? Wow![/quote]
What if we changed it to say this:
“You think whites and blacks don’t mix in 2015 and you call it “racist”? Wow!
What, exactly, are you surprised by? That it appears as though boys and girls are more segregated today than when we were growing up; or that, if true, it would be considered misogynistic?[/quote]
That doesn’t even make sense. That analogy would only hold water if someone had said that lack of interracial interaction was due to blacks hating whites and someone else said:
“You think whites and blacks don’t mix in 2015 and you say it’s because blacks hate whites? Wow!”
See, because that would be taking issue with laying the blame for the lack of interaction on one side. You blamed misogyny, and Russ took issue with it. The speaker above blamed blacks’ hate for whites. To take issue with that seems like a valid, proper, basically required response.
October 26, 2015 at 10:34 PM #790695Participant^^^^ Perfect answer.
October 27, 2015 at 1:09 AM #790697Participant[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=CA renter]
No, but you’ve got to admit that the group who has held power over the other throughout human history (even to this day) might be more inclined to perpetuate the actions, behaviors, and beliefs that are systemic in our global society.[/quote]
CAr, power, wealth and privilege can accumulate within race. So with regard to race, I agree with you.
But, as a whole, men have sons and daughters equally. I don’t see a misoginistic inter-generational transfer of power.
Math wise, for your argument to work, women would have to pass on misoginy as much as men.[/quote]Power, wealth, and privilege accumulate within gender, too. Most of the women who occupy the “wealthiest women” lists got their money from either their husbands (deceased or ex), or their fathers. Only 5% of the CEOs of Fortune 500 companies are women.
And women absolutely do pass on the misogyny. You have no idea how many times I’ve heard women say:
“I have such a GREAT relationship with my son. There is nothing like the relationship between a mother and her son. Boys are just so special.”
It’s like having boys makes women feel like they’ve gained access to the “penis club,” and since women have had to compete for men throughout history (because men — either husbands or sons — were key to their survival), they exclude other women from this “club” every chance they get. Women with sons tend to associate with one another, to the exclusion of women with girls.
And women who have both sons and daughters will often go on and on about their sons, while largely skipping over the importance of their daughters, or just mention the girls as a side story or talk about how they like to go shopping together — but rarely talk about their girls’ achievements in the same way they do their sons’ achievements, even when the daughters are more accomplished. I’ve had women tell me, point blank, that they don’t really like their daughters, but they love their sons because of this supposed “mother and son” relationship. I used to think that Freud was off his rocker, until I started noticing these behaviors. It’s creepy.
My own mother told me and my sister all the time that she wished so badly for a son instead of the daughters she got because boys and men were so powerful. Once I got married, she shoved me out of the way to get to my husband whom she insisted on calling “son,” instead of calling him by his name. This male-worship is not uncommon among women. My MIL is the same way. Every time when I was pregnant, she would tell me how much she hoped for a grandson, and was clearly disappointed when we kept having girls. My own mother did the same thing, too.
The push to segregate often involves both the mothers and the fathers, with the fathers spending all their time on “boys’ activities” with their sons, and the mothers dragging their daughters around to shopping malls and nail parlors. All too often, the family refuses to socialize together because they don’t want to mix the genders together. I kid you not.
But the ultimate goal in every case is to keep their sons from becoming “feminized.” One time, when we went out to eat with another family who had both a son and daughter, the father tried to insist that the boy sit with the adults so that he wouldn’t have to sit with the girls. I had another mother insist that she wouldn’t dress her son in pastel blue outfits because they were “too girly,” so she would dress him in plain white onesies with dark blue pants. If a parent has a new baby, and it’s a boy, all you hear is “my son…my son…my son…my boy…my boy.” When people have a daughter, they tend not to mention the gender as often, usually just referring to gender when it would seem unnatural to do otherwise.
October 27, 2015 at 1:24 AM #790698Participant[quote=zk][quote=CA renter][quote=Blogstar]You think boys and girls don’t mix in 2015 and you call it “misogynistic”? Wow![/quote]
What if we changed it to say this:
“You think whites and blacks don’t mix in 2015 and you call it “racist”? Wow!
What, exactly, are you surprised by? That it appears as though boys and girls are more segregated today than when we were growing up; or that, if true, it would be considered misogynistic?[/quote]
That doesn’t even make sense. That analogy would only hold water if someone had said that lack of interracial interaction was due to blacks hating whites and someone else said:
“You think whites and blacks don’t mix in 2015 and you say it’s because blacks hate whites? Wow!”
See, because that would be taking issue with laying the blame for the lack of interaction on one side. You blamed misogyny, and Russ took issue with it. The speaker above blamed blacks’ hate for whites. To take issue with that seems like a valid, proper, basically required response.[/quote]
My response to Brian should make clear my position on this. In the vast majority of cases that we’ve seen and experienced, the segregation is being done to prevent the “feminization” of boys; it’s not done to prevent the girls from becoming too masculine. The girls are the ones who are being excluded in almost every case.
Look at scaredy’s posts about his sons. That is what we see on a daily basis — the notion that females are “screwed up” and neurotic, and that boys need to be protected from that.
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