middle school logic

[outtamojo]

[quote=CA renter]The drive to emphasize a person’s “masculinity” by engaging in rude or offensive behavior is interesting. Some of the most confident and masculine men I’ve ever known were absolutely not trash-talkers; they were kind, considerate, well-spoken people who knew when to be considerate, and also knew when to get aggressive with bullies.

For whatever it’s worth, teach your son to keep the “yo mama” jokes to himself when around African-Americans. I attended a junior high school in L.A. where a majority of the students were bused in from downtown, so we had a student population that was majority African-American. Whenever a kid dared to say the words, “yo mama,” it was a sure bet that he was about to have his ass kicked from here to Mississippi. It was serious business and, oftentimes, multiple other kids would join in the beatings as other students would link arms and form concentric rings around the fights so that the administrators and teachers couldn’t intervene.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that your son might think he’s pretty smart, but if he utters the wrong words in front of the wrong people, it could easily get ugly.

The other kid was fully justified in telling his parents about your kid’s behavior. There are a whole lot of people in the world who would not be okay with these comments, even if they were made “in jest.”

It’s good that you’re concerned about it, and I know that you want to do the right by your kid. As someone already mentioned above, we no longer live in a society where the wife-beating asshole wins. Teach your son to socialize with all kinds of kids: older kids, younger kids, black, white, brown, rich, poor, smart, not-so-smart, etc., and teach him to make friends with girls, too! There is nothing worse than a grown man who’s never learned how to socialize with women (and vice-versa). It is a HUGE handicap in life.[/quote]

Last year when my son was on the 7th grade basketball team the 8th graders would walk into the school gym as his team was finishing up practice and the 8th graders would start barking at them and fake throwing the ball at their heads and many of the 7th graders would be genuinely terrified of the older class. When my son’s 7th graders would walk into the gym as the 6th graders were finishing up, many times one of the 6th graders would toss my son a ball and challenge him to “come get some”. The littler ones found my son approachable and I felt good about that.
Which was why I was terrified when I was confronted with what my son was saying to the other kid – I was terrified he had turned into one of last year’s eight-graders.
I don’t think I have to worry about him talking smack or making yo mamma jokes to a complete stranger or some stranger who refuses to swim -he seems to know the code. He keeps saying he thought the other kid was a friend, and they spent a whole season together on the same track team. Nevertheless,on the advice of many ,I instructed him to completely cool it with the off color stuff when at school.
He does socialize with all kinds, including girls. On reflection, I think overall he is an ok kid. But you know, I just realized that being a parent will never stop and just because someone young may be “amazing” now doesn’t guarantee they will be the same later on in life. The hopelessness of it all has sapped my mojo 🙂

[Hobie]

Only skimming so I may have missed this already, but I think the bigger issue is that it was said in the presence of the parents. Smack talk if fine but forgetting and filter for elders is a miss.

+1 Scaredy’s man talk.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=Blogstar]… you know Mexican people , so think about it in the way they use “mal educado”. It has nothing to do with degrees or money.[/quote]

Yeah, I get it. It translates to ill-bred in English, or mal élevé in French. In Latin culture it’s an important concept.
http://forum.wordreference.com/threads/mal-%C3%A9lev%C3%A9.52762/

But it’s an old fashioned concept in American culture. My parents and grand parents used that word. But everyone had kids late so I really should be 80 now.

[NotCranky]

If the grade levels beat down the grade below , I think that is a hostile environment. I’d be considering another school. I might see reasons to stay too.
Anyway , good for you outtamojo for taking the behavior on directly.

[Doofrat]

[quote=outtamojo]He does socialize with all kinds, including girls. On reflection, I think overall he is an ok kid. But you know, I just realized that being a parent will never stop and just because someone young may be “amazing” now doesn’t guarantee they will be the same later on in life. The hopelessness of it all has sapped my mojo :)[/quote]

Outtamojo, you’ve got the right attitude about it, you’re keeping an open mind, and following up on this. Where it becomes an issue is when a parent or administrator ignores the issue or makes excuses; then they just become an enabler. I don’t have kids, but I’d like to think I’d approach it the same way you’ve been.

[CA renter]

[quote=doofrat][quote=outtamojo]He does socialize with all kinds, including girls. On reflection, I think overall he is an ok kid. But you know, I just realized that being a parent will never stop and just because someone young may be “amazing” now doesn’t guarantee they will be the same later on in life. The hopelessness of it all has sapped my mojo :)[/quote]

Outtamojo, you’ve got the right attitude about it, you’re keeping an open mind, and following up on this. Where it becomes an issue is when a parent or administrator ignores the issue or makes excuses; then they just become an enabler. I don’t have kids, but I’d like to think I’d approach it the same way you’ve been.[/quote]

+1

I meant to add some more to my response because my post might have come off as a bit more harsh than intended…

You did an excellent job, outtamojo, and the fact that you gave the father your phone number and assured him that you would take care of things indicates good judgment and character on your part. Your kid is trying to navigate the hell of junior high school where kids are all trying to find their place in the social pecking order, all while the hormones are raging and the growth of their physical bodies starts to outpace the growth and maturity of their minds.

Parenting is always going to be one of the most complicated endeavors we’ll ever experience, and we are all just trying to do our best, with most of us having to learn on the fly. Keep up the good work! 🙂

[scaredyclassic]

this issue is really the main issue on my life for the last oh, 35 to 40 years.
This is a big problem for a lot of guys, not just me.

Perhaps you are familiar with Robert Bly, whose book, IRON JOHN, framed this societal problem back in the 1980s among us quasi men of “how do we become men”. a men’s awareness movement ensued, for guys who felt like they werent really guys.

More recently, “I LOVE YOU MAN”, a movie about a guy looking for a guy friend to be his best man because he only has women friends, and more recently that movie about the friendless dude who hires Kevin hart to round up some male guests for his wedding because he has no friends….i recll other movies in this genre as well..

… This issue is in the air, it’s in the culture. Women seem to know how to knit tight networks more efficiently than the lame portion of the men flock do.

i’m like paul rudd in I LOVE YOU MAN, the guy who suddenly desperately realizes men dont like him. Women generally liked me more, and I thought this was good, but realized indeed that it was a very very very bad sign.

Men need to be accepted by other men. their acceptance by women is not enough. it makes us neurotic. My dad was a nervous wreck. Still, even he had a lot more guy friends, and was “normal” and perceived as normal among the guys he hung out with, who also struck me as normal guys. He smoked cigars, he didn’t talk about weird stuff like me. he never had a doubt that he was a man, a regular man. the thought of him questioning his manhood is inconceivable to me.

So what the hell is my problem? I’m not sure. I think I’ve become a lot more like a regular man, or at least am a better simulation of one that is less identifiable as weird instantly, throught he process of raising 3 boys.

I was very scared to have boys, thinking, shoot, now I’m going to produce yet another generation of neurotic self-conscious males.

Either that, or they will be actual men,a nd will judge me harshly. Dammit. But it hasn’t turned out that way. They are for the most part extraordinarily more normal than me, and their confidence levels are orders of magnitude higher than mine were. Partly the process has brought me along, partly it seems like evidence that maybe I am a normal man, because I have raised young men who seem like regular men. they interact with other male peers not in an awkward way. That fills me with confidence in myself, oddly.

Maybe the problem is women;real men aren’t hungry to have women accept them. They just are accepted by men and therefore acceptable to women. trying to win women’s favor is unattractive to other men.

Ultimately, it is boy against girls, and I am guilty of not being fully on the boys team.

it seems so profoundly wrong to me to have women weigh in on how guys should act when they are together. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. I mean, imagine the reverse. What if I said, hey, I don’t like the way young women interact in sororities, or women’s chamber of commerce groups. I think you should behave differently. Youre promoting bad attitudes toward men. Your speech patterns are bitchy or mean. They would tell me to shut the hell up, right? they would say they need a place to be safe from the partiarchy or that they have been abused so long by men over history that a man is in no position to judge.

Because, they’d say, men are bad, it’s men’s fault the world is messed up, girl power.

And Ultimately, throughout my sad little feminized life, I think I bought that line… and if you believe that narrative, regular guys are NOT gonna like you.

So I am still guilty of being a dyed in the wool feminist. thats who i am. Women still like me and are most of my friends. I hate that. but it’s probably too late for me to change. I’m just glad i didnt make more of me.

[scaredyclassic]

maybe im just another casualty of feminist dogma, like the childlessolder female exec who wakes up and realizes shed rather have just stayed home and had babies.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=scaredyclassic]maybe im just another casualty of feminist dogma, like the childlessolder female exec who wakes up and realizes shed rather have just stayed home and had babies.[/quote]LOL, scaredy, I am your female counterpart, EXCEPT I didn’t “stay home and have babies.” I actually had them DURING FT employment and went back to work when my (6-8 wk) “maternity leave” was up, as did the vast majority of my “counterparts” of that era. We ALL survived and our kids fared better for the example we set for them! They are all VERY successful now and no one can take that away from them.

[outtamojo]

[quote=scaredyclassic]this issue is really the main issue on my life for the last oh, 35 to 40 years.
This is a big problem for a lot of guys, not just me.

Perhaps you are familiar with Robert Bly, whose book, IRON JOHN, framed this societal problem back in the 1980s among us quasi men of “how do we become men”. a men’s awareness movement ensued, for guys who felt like they werent really guys.

More recently, “I LOVE YOU MAN”, a movie about a guy looking for a guy friend to be his best man because he only has women friends, and more recently that movie about the friendless dude who hires Kevin hart to round up some male guests for his wedding because he has no friends….i recll other movies in this genre as well..

… This issue is in the air, it’s in the culture. Women seem to know how to knit tight networks more efficiently than the lame portion of the men flock do.

i’m like paul rudd in I LOVE YOU MAN, the guy who suddenly desperately realizes men dont like him. Women generally liked me more, and I thought this was good, but realized indeed that it was a very very very bad sign.

Men need to be accepted by other men. their acceptance by women is not enough. it makes us neurotic. My dad was a nervous wreck. Still, even he had a lot more guy friends, and was “normal” and perceived as normal among the guys he hung out with, who also struck me as normal guys. He smoked cigars, he didn’t talk about weird stuff like me. he never had a doubt that he was a man, a regular man. the thought of him questioning his manhood is inconceivable to me.

So what the hell is my problem? I’m not sure. I think I’ve become a lot more like a regular man, or at least am a better simulation of one that is less identifiable as weird instantly, throught he process of raising 3 boys.

I was very scared to have boys, thinking, shoot, now I’m going to produce yet another generation of neurotic self-conscious males.

Either that, or they will be actual men,a nd will judge me harshly. Dammit. But it hasn’t turned out that way. They are for the most part extraordinarily more normal than me, and their confidence levels are orders of magnitude higher than mine were. Partly the process has brought me along, partly it seems like evidence that maybe I am a normal man, because I have raised young men who seem like regular men. they interact with other male peers not in an awkward way. That fills me with confidence in myself, oddly.

Maybe the problem is women;real men aren’t hungry to have women accept them. They just are accepted by men and therefore acceptable to women. trying to win women’s favor is unattractive to other men.

Ultimately, it is boy against girls, and I am guilty of not being fully on the boys team.

it seems so profoundly wrong to me to have women weigh in on how guys should act when they are together. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. I mean, imagine the reverse. What if I said, hey, I don’t like the way young women interact in sororities, or women’s chamber of commerce groups. I think you should behave differently. Youre promoting bad attitudes toward men. Your speech patterns are bitchy or mean. They would tell me to shut the hell up, right? they would say they need a place to be safe from the partiarchy or that they have been abused so long by men over history that a man is in no position to judge.

Because, they’d say, men are bad, it’s men’s fault the world is messed up, girl power.

And Ultimately, throughout my sad little feminized life, I think I bought that line… and if you believe that narrative, regular guys are NOT gonna like you.

So I am still guilty of being a dyed in the wool feminist. thats who i am. Women still like me and are most of my friends. I hate that. but it’s probably too late for me to change. I’m just glad i didnt make more of me.[/quote]

Maybe its the boobs I’m growing in middle age but I find myself preferring the company of women friends nowadays. I find myself not liking anymore to get together with a bunch of guys.

[CA renter]

[quote=outtamojo]

Maybe its the boobs I’m growing in middle age but I find myself preferring the company of women friends nowadays. I find myself not liking anymore to get together with a bunch of guys.[/quote]

Maybe it’s because you’ve been around long enough and seen enough to realize that women tend to be better friends. Guys don’t want to be around other guys when they’re having difficulties in life, at least not for long. Women, OTOH, will give you a shoulder to cry on, will bring you food when you’re too sick or depressed to get out of bed, will wipe your butt and give you sponge baths when you’re unable to do it for yourself. Men tend to be less inclined to make personal sacrifices for others, especially if it’s a long-term commitment, though there are always exceptions on both sides.

Men? They generally don’t bond directly with one another like women do. Men bond through third party objects or hobbies like watching football or fishing or golfing, etc. It’s just different.

OTOH, men do tend to be less neurotic, so scaredy has something there. But the #1 reason that “real” men (according to scaredy’s definition) don’t like to hang around women is because men are always jostling for power, and women have historically been the less powerful sex. That’s why being called a “bitch” or a “p*s*y” is a problem for men, but being called a “d**k” doesn’t really mean much to a woman.

[scaredyclassic]

Is this intrinsic to men or is the above description the result of the last generation of mothers screwing with their sons heads.

I say the latter.

History is replete with great friendships of men. The above post sounds like men can’t be friends because they aren’t “nice”.

[svelte]

Just got around to peeking into this thread. Regarding the orginal post: I wouldn’t worry about your son at this point.

At that age, kids will do any number of things to fit in and realize in a few years how stupid that was. It’s great that you talk to him and make him think through what he was/is doing, but I wouldn’t come down hard on him. Yet.

[zk]

[quote=scaredyclassic]Is this intrinsic to men or is the above description the result of the last generation of mothers screwing with their sons heads.

I say the latter.

History is replete with great friendships of men. The above post sounds like men can’t be friends because they aren’t “nice”.[/quote]

Having the same confidence-with-guy-friends issue as scaredy and having had a mother who looked down upon any kind of manliness, I’m going to agree with scaredy here.

“Nice” (I use the word “nice” but what I really mean is closer to “good friend”) among men might look different from “nice” among women. What might look to a woman like a man being nice to another man might look to the recipient man not like nice at all. And what might look to a woman like a man being “not nice” to another man might feel like gold to that other man. A woman is not in a position to judge that. She never has been and never will be.

[FlyerInHi]

I tend to agree with scaredy. Men as wusses now. They are feeling like women. Get upset at petty things. It’s kinda irritating. Men should be strong and not sweat the small things.

There is nothing as irritating as a man who thinks things over, or discusses things with others, then suddenly believes he’s been dissed and wants an apology. Men are not supposed to need apologies to move on.

[Author]

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