middle school logic

[FlyerInHi]

I don’t find the argument that women earn less than men compelling. “So what?” one may ask. Because in the aggregate, family units are comprised of men and women. Therefore household income is even.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=scaredyclassic]
the next oppressed group may actually justbe the poor white aging population ( least if their rapidly increasing mortality figures means anything):

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/a-group-of-middle-aged-american-whites-is-dying-at-a-startling-rate/2015/11/02/47a63098-8172-11e5-8ba6-cec48b74b2a7_story.html
[/quote]

We can already feel that pulse in of the nation
Maybe they deserve to die early if they are weak, do drug and eat junk food.

About unintended consequences, the war on drugs is claiming victims who were previously immune. I think it’s only right that people get a taste of their own medicine.

[NotCranky]

It’s a great world , remember when you used to have to pay to see tattooed women? And they were ugly too, not like the hotties sporting ink today.

[CA renter]

[quote=scaredyclassic]why does the phrase “if mama aint happy aint nobody happy” have the ring of a simple, somewhat humorous truth, while the inverse, “if Dad isn’t happy aint nobody happy” sound like a vaguely dangerous threat’?

is it because women are actually in control and claiming victimhood at the same time. as us jews learned many years ago, the narrative of victimhood is a very powerful one.

the next oppressed group may actually justbe the poor white aging population ( least if their rapidly increasing mortality figures means anything):

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/a-group-of-middle-aged-american-whites-is-dying-at-a-startling-rate/2015/11/02/47a63098-8172-11e5-8ba6-cec48b74b2a7_story.html%5B/quote%5D

I’m guessing meth and heroin. That stuff is all over the place in white, rural America. It’s pretty prevalent among urban and suburban whites, too. Add to that the massive overuse of prescription drugs, and it’s a recipe for disaster.

[CA renter]

[quote=harvey][quote=CA renter]ZK, we can go around and around on this because it’s unlikely we will ever see eye to eye if you believe that misogyny and sexism are things of the past. They are not.
Of course, it’s like a white person telling a black person that racism doesn’t exist. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this.[/quote]

One month ago:

http://piggington.com/ageing_population_and_housing?page=1

[quote=CA renter on October 1, 2015 – 5:07pm.]Brian, the “racist, xenophobic, bigoted, paranoid, nativist (as a negative)” labels are overused and worn out. They have been used as a means to censor those with dissenting opinions; therefore, they are 100% invalid. Name-calling doesn’t work; try arguing with facts and logic, instead.[/quote]

So these labels are only “100% invalid” when someone is applying them to you?[/quote]

In my post regarding the overuse of those terms, I was referring to the regular habit of people who use these terms as a means to shut down an opponent’s right to speak about an issue (which is often not directly related to race, ethnicity, etc.). Real racism DOES exist, but when people overuse this term to shut down their opponents because they don’t want to discuss some underlying issues, it takes away its meaning and impact.

In this thread, I never used the terms sexist or misogynistic as a means to shut people down. To the contrary, I want people to open up their eyes and minds to what’s going on around them so we can have a meaningful conversation about these issues.

The OP’s son made some remarks that were clearly sexist in nature, and multiple posters, both male and female, picked up on this right away.

[CA renter]

[quote=zk][quote=zk]
I notice sexism all the time. I notice misogyny when I see it, too. I have a daughter. And when she was born, I was quite concerned with how society would treat her. I still am. I think the objectification of women is rampant. My first facebook post was about a feminist champion doing great things for the cause of women. (In fact, other than pix of vacations that my wife posted, and a few posts about my favorite baseball team, that’s my only facebook post.) So I’m actually on your side in general. I’m a feminist who is pretty sensitive to how women are treated. [/quote]

You followed my posting of the above with your posting of the below:

[quote=CA renter]ZK, we can go around and around on this because it’s unlikely we will ever see eye to eye if you believe that misogyny and sexism are things of the past. They are not.

Of course, it’s like a white person telling a black person that racism doesn’t exist. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this.[/quote]

Your reading skills leave quite a bit to be desired.

You ignore the points I make that counter your weak arguments. And then, when it’s obvious that your arguments can’t stand up to mine, you imply that I hold a position that I clearly (to anyone who’s paying attention to what I’m actually saying) don’t, and run away. Weak.

Have you ever known a black person who sees racism in every corner? Even when it’s not there? Constantly crying, “racism!!” even if whatever happened that he’s crying racism about was clearly due to other factors, and not racism? Sure there’s racism out there. Lots of it. Just not everywhere that person sees it. If you try to tell that person that a particular incident wasn’t racism, they get angry and think you’re a fool for not seeing it. It’s pretty obvious to everyone that that person has a very large chip on his shoulder, and that he sees racism everywhere he turns his eyes, rather than only where it actually is. It’s pretty obvious to everyone that he’s angry, bitter, and irrational. Obvious to everyone except that person, of course.

That’s you with misogyny.[/quote]

ZK, you only notice sexism and misogyny when you determine it exists, as per your definition. The objectification of women is one component of sexism, and you don’t even notice how some of your own beliefs and behaviors contribute to the objectification and denigration of women.

The fact that you have a daughter does not mean that you can spot sexism or misogyny in the same way that a woman can because you have never had to live as a woman. You have never been told that your (less experienced, less educated, less valuable) male peers were paid more than you because they were men or because they have families to support. You have probably never been catcalled and groped by strangers on the street, even when you were a kid. You have no idea what that feels like.

You have never been told that you can’t play football (but told that you could be a cheerleader and cheer the boys on!) because you were born with internal reproductive organs.

You are not an expert regarding sexism and misogyny, and you certainly don’t know more than I do about it because of the simple fact that you are not a woman. Again, the fact that you can’t grasp how the most insulting terms in our show how sexism and misogyny are alive and well in our society is a very clear indication that you are not nearly as aware of sexism and misogyny as you seem to think you are.

The fact that you think that being female makes one biologically inclined to like shopping shows how naive you are regarding this topic.

I appreciate the fact that you want to be a feminist, but you need to understand that you will NEVER understand sexism and misogyny in the way that a woman understands and experiences it (and many women don’t notice it as much because they are used to it; it’s all they’ve ever known). What we do need to do is get a better understanding of the history and the facts that contribute to our biases and the way we value people, professions, contributions to society, etc.

Everything I’ve said here is a fact — nothing that I’ve written here was imagined or made up — from what girls have to endure on a regular basis, to the way that parents, peers, and others guide very young girls and boys toward behaviors and activities that are gender-based, irrespective of what is natural for those children. Yes, there are biological differences that are related to our different reproductive roles, but these differences are not nearly as dramatic as you think they are.

[FlyerInHi]

honestly, CAr, I don’t think you’re consistent and harvey brought that up very well.

You’ve argued that women are different than men before regarding child bearing, etc.. And now, you’re saying that males and females are the same.

Your bring up good points, but I don’t find your comments morally righteous and consistent. You’re not a feminist, just a tigress defending her pet issues.

Real feminists don’t give themselves to men and child bearing for men easily. They would want to band together to restrict the supply of women so as to extract maximum concessions from men.

It’s supply and demand, my dear (yes, i know, it’s sexist). More supply and lower demand means lower consideration/prices. That’s what feminists should work on.

Another example of inconsistency is your advocacy for victim’s rights. Except when the perpetrator is a cop, in which case the victim no longer matters. What matters then is the stress the cop is under.

[njtosd]

I have to say, CAR – I’ve been keeping track of this thread and in my opinion your usually very reasonable positions have taken on a very personal and somewhat contorted flavor. Like you, I am a woman, but unlike you I was raised with a brother and sister and I have a son and daughters. My mom was a science teacher, dad was a lawyer and both my brother and I got degrees in science and law (sister went into advertising and outdid us both). I believe I am raising my kids in a fairly gender neutral way – but boys/men and girls/women are not the same and never will be. There are men in the world who are misogynistic, but there are an equal number of women who appear to hate/dislike men (not a word for those women even though there are a lot of them). People have had bad experiences and tend to globalize. I have been treated badly on various occasions throughout my life for being young, old, female, thin, fat, single, married, high earning, low earning, etc. And for what it’s worth – watch the commercials on TV. In most commercials, if someone ends up looking foolish, it’s almost always a middle aged white man.

People will find a reason to feel superior to you if they want to. Go ahead and let them, and while they’re at it you should be busy getting done what you need to do to make yourself happy.

[CA renter]

Brian and njtosd,

I’ve never said that males and females were the same. In multiple posts, in this thread and others, I’ve stated quite matter-of-factly that there are differences between the sexes, particularly as it relates to our biological/reproductive roles. It’s even in the post just above your most recent post, Brian.

What I’m arguing against is the assumption that gender differences, which are the direct and indirect result of socialization, are the same as biological differences. They are very different, and I firmly believe that children brought up in a truly gender-neutral environment will tend to overlap in the grey are between “masculine” and “feminine” far more than most people would think.

Most of all, I’m arguing against the socially imposed sexism and misogyny that are rampant in our society and are often overlooked and/or accepted because we are trained from infancy that this is the natural order of things.

[Anonymous]

We need to make amends.

Let’s find that little boy – the boy who had a pink sheet of paper so viscously ripped from his hand.

Let’s give him an entire ream of pink paper!

I’ll pitch in the paper. I’m sure we can find him.

CAr, where were you when you witnessed this horror?

We can do this.

[flyer]

Here are some excerpts from an article I found interesting regarding differing opinions. . .

“We all have our own set of rules that we wish to play by. The smartest of us realize this earlier on and instead of continuing to try and force our reality on the rest of humanity, we learn to adapt. We learn to take our reality and manipulate it so it can function efficiently within the rules already outlined by both the universe and the human race.

Life doesn’t need to be the struggle we make it out to be. Of course, we sometimes find ourselves in situations where the only way to interpret them is as struggles.

I can write about how life would be so much more pleasant if we would all just get along. Utopia is a beautiful place, one that fairytales are made of. Unfortunately, that’s the only place a utopia will ever exist — in a fantasy.

You can’t have perfection when the individuals, the parts and the pieces are flawed. And human beings will forever be flawed; it’s part of our nature. The people of the world will always be at war with each other in one way or another. You can hope to change the world, but this is one thing you’ll never change.

You’ll meet people who won’t like you, who will hate you, who will try to hurt you. Whether or not they hurt you, however, is entirely up to you. When you really think about it, there’s no reason to feel hurt by others. Why? Because your life decisions should not be controlled by what others think.

You can respect a person and at the same time not care about all the negative words he or she throws your way.

You don’t want to ignore other people, even when they are hateful toward you. It’s always best to listen, to hear their perspective. Whether or not you believe their words have any truth to them is a different story.

This way you get to understand their realities, the way they see the world, the way they see you. It can give you great insight as to how they interpret things and what they value.

Gather all this information and you’ll begin to understand the rules everyone else is trying to play by. Then, instead of playing by their rules, you tweak yours in order to work most seamlessly and efficiently between their realities.

Living a happy life is the result of a delicate combination of going with the flow and swimming against the current. You can’t just do one or the other because you won’t survive; you’ll either get washed away with the rest of the floaters, or you’ll tire out and drown.

Keep this one thing in mind because it could literally change your life: Remember. The best way to win in life is by living the life of YOUR dreams.”

[scaredyclassic]

Because women bear the burden of having kids, they are kind of screwed.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=scaredyclassic]Because women bear the burden of having kids, they are kind of screwed.[/quote]

Screwed? Literally or figuratively?

If women were a corporation they would find that to be a tremendous competitive advantage. Only women can have children so they could charge a lot for the service. Women just aren’t leveraging the asset for maximum benefit.

Again it depends on supply and demand. In NYC, there’s a shortage of eligible men so women go begging. In China, there is a shortage of women, so women can demand paid for houses and cars in advance of marriage.

[zk]

[quote=CA renter]

ZK, you only notice sexism and misogyny when you determine it exists, as per your definition.
[/quote]
CA renter, does it not even occur to you that the exact same thing must be said of you (and everybody else)? The question is, whose perception is closer to reality? And, given your situation with your mother (and your vastly different perception of what’s happening from most people’s), I’d say your perception is quite skewed.
[quote=CA renter]

The objectification of women is one component of sexism, and you don’t even notice how some of your own beliefs and behaviors contribute to the objectification and denigration of women.
[/quote]
You just made that up, and you have no idea what you’re talking about.

[quote=CA renter]

The fact that you have a daughter does not mean that you can spot sexism or misogyny in the same way that a woman can because you have never had to live as a woman. You have never been told that your (less experienced, less educated, less valuable) male peers were paid more than you because they were men or because they have families to support.
[/quote]
So no man can ever spot sexism or misogyny the same way that any woman can? That’s patently ridiculous, and that flawed thinking is more evidence of your irrationality on this matter.

[quote=CA renter]

You have probably never been catcalled and groped by strangers on the street, even when you were a kid. You have no idea what that feels like.
[/quote]
Well, actually I have been catcalled by strangers a couple times. And, I gotta tell you, it felt great. I only wish I’d been groped. That would’ve been really great.

[quote=CA renter]

You are not an expert regarding sexism and misogyny, and you certainly don’t know more than I do about it because of the simple fact that you are not a woman.

[/quote]
So no man is an expert on sexism and misogyny, and no man knows more than any woman? Do you honestly think that makes sense? By that reasoning, a woman with an IQ of 70 who never leaves the house, sits around watching television all day, and never gives sexism a second thought knows more about misogyny and sexism than a man who’s studied it his whole life and has a PhD in Women’s Studies from Harvard. Brilliant.
[quote=CA renter]

Again, the fact that you can’t grasp how the most insulting terms in our show how sexism and misogyny are alive and well in our society is a very clear indication that you are not nearly as aware of sexism and misogyny as you seem to think you are.
[/quote]
You keep twisting this away from what I originally said.
[quote zk]

You really think the fact that female insults are sex-specific while male insults are not is “proof” that misogyny exists “to a large extent?” If that’s all the “proof” you need, then it’s no wonder you overestimate it.[/quote]
It could be considered evidence that misogyny is alive and well to a large extent. Something to be considered in the larger conversation. But proof, all by itself? No.

[quote=CA renter]

The fact that you think that being female makes one biologically inclined to like shopping shows how naive you are regarding this topic.
[/quote]
Good god, you’re exasperating. The fact that you have to misquote me shows how weak your arguments are. I never said that I think being female makes one biologically inclined to like shopping. I said (or implied) that, in general, girls like girls’ activities, and boys like boys’ activities. And that that’s largely due to biological differences.

[quote=CA renter]

I appreciate the fact that you want to be a feminist
[/quote]
I want to be a feminist?
Your condescension is amazing, disgusting, and pathetic all at the same time.
[quote=CA renter]

What we do need to do is get a better understanding of the history and the facts that contribute to our biases and the way we value people, professions, contributions to society, etc.
[/quote]
I concur with that. But starting with the distorted positions and failing logic that you’re starting with won’t make anything better.
[quote=CA renter]

Everything I’ve said here is a fact
[/quote]
I dare you to challenge me to list the non-factual things you’ve said.

You can tell stories about parents segregating their boys from girls. And you can tell us how often it happens. And you can claim that, in every single instance, it was for fear of feminizing boys. But if you ignore the question I asked about whether they actually told you this, and you can’t find one of the people who have done it to explain to you why they think exposing their boys to girls will feminize them, and if no one else has ever witnessed such a thing for such a reason even once, then nobody will believe you.
[quote=CA renter]

— nothing that I’ve written here was imagined or made up — from what girls have to endure on a regular basis, to the way that parents, peers, and others guide very young girls and boys toward behaviors and activities that are gender-based, irrespective of what is natural for those children.
[/quote]
I’m not saying that girls and women don’t have to endure sexism and misogyny. I’m saying that it doesn’t happen to the extent that you see it. You see things as “facts” because you think you’ve seen them with your own eyes. But if your upbringing-addled brain is distorting what you’re seeing, then what you’re “seeing” isn’t really fact.
[quote=CA renter]

Yes, there are biological differences that are related to our different reproductive roles, but these differences are not nearly as dramatic as you think they are.
[/quote]
You wanting that to be true does not make it true.

[Anonymous]

[quote=zk][quote=CA renter]

ZK, you only notice sexism and misogyny when you determine it exists, as per your definition.
[/quote]
CA renter, does it not even occur to you that the exact same thing must be said of you (and everybody else)? The question is, whose perception is closer to reality? And, given your situation with your mother (and your vastly different perception of what’s happening from most people’s), I’d say your perception is quite skewed.
[…]
[/quote]

Good effort, but the message won’t get through.

You can’t overcome Dunning–Kruger .

[Author]

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