- This topic has 38 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 4 months ago by
FlyerInHi.
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July 20, 2017 at 1:53 PM #807253July 20, 2017 at 4:08 PM #807254
FlyerInHi
Guest[quote=ocrenter]
This is the reason why a lot of people voted for Trump.[/quote]
Trump voters want to go to war. They want to kick ass but for what really?
We spent $ trillions in Afghanistan and the taliban is looking to make a comeback. Spending drives economic growth for a few years because we spend on our own contractors but there is no future return. We maybe sending more troops there.
China is building the China Pakistan corridor. They get revenue concessions from the project. They get development rights along the corridor… new businesses, new condos. Development in Pakistan will drive demand for Chinese products. Win win. Best of all nobody is killed. Even if Pakistan doesn’t payback the loans for decades, the buiness opportunities will more than make up.
July 20, 2017 at 8:42 PM #807255ocrenter
Participant[quote=FlyerInHi]
Trump voters want to go to war. They want to kick ass but for what really?
We spent $ trillions in Afghanistan and the taliban is looking to make a comeback. Spending drives economic growth for a few years because we spend on our own contractors but there is no future return. We maybe sending more troops there.
China is building the China Pakistan corridor. They get revenue concessions from the project. They get development rights along the corridor… new businesses, new condos. Development in Pakistan will drive demand for Chinese products. Win win. Best of all nobody is killed. Even if Pakistan doesn’t payback the loans for decades, the buiness opportunities will more than make up.[/quote]
Trump voters are self contradictory. They are very nationalistic, so you are right, they do want higher military spending. But they are also isolationist and want the US withdraw from these wars and conflicts.
Chinese are incredibly nationalistic, they absolutely support the government policy of increasing military spending. The government uses various manufactured conflicts to fan the nationalistic flame.
July 21, 2017 at 6:06 AM #807256Anonymous
GuestThe Chinese government does have a certain wisdom:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/news/controversial-justin-bieber-banned-china-order-purify-nation/
July 21, 2017 at 9:48 AM #807257Guest[quote=ocrenter]
Trump voters are self contradictory. They are very nationalistic, so you are right, they do want higher military spending. But they are also isolationist and want the US withdraw from these wars and conflicts.
Chinese are incredibly nationalistic, they absolutely support the government policy of increasing military spending. The government uses various manufactured conflicts to fan the nationalistic flame.[/quote]
I believe Trump supporters want to kickass at war. They can’t stomach nation building or long term diplomacy.
China is in for the long term with their foreign policy. We’ll see if in 10 years, Belt and Road ties other countries closer to China. In contrast, we’ve been in Afghanistan and iraq for a decade and a half. Any good results?
In the big picture, chinese nationalism is similar to our American exceptionalism. At least the chinese don’t invade other countries, they’re not religious so they don’t send proselytizers on missions around the world.
China’s biggest challenge is to avoid the middle income trap. If they don’t pull it off, there will be instability and the country could regress economically, possibly break apart.
July 21, 2017 at 10:02 AM #807258Participant[quote=harvey]The Chinese government does have a certain wisdom:
https://www.facebook.com/m.ltn.tw/posts/1511308972288097
Apparently 50% of the well to do Chinese wishes to leave China. I guess the Bieber ban was the last straw.
July 21, 2017 at 11:09 AM #807260Guest[quote=ocrenter]
Apparently 50% of the well to do Chinese wishes to leave China. I guess the Bieber ban was the last straw.[/quote]
It’s actually good for China. Because they act like Chinese investments aboard. And their businesses usually involve facilitating trade with China and knowledge transfers to China.
The world is changing. We need to embrace globalization and world citizenry.
July 21, 2017 at 11:56 AM #807261Participant[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=ocrenter]
Apparently 50% of the well to do Chinese wishes to leave China. I guess the Bieber ban was the last straw.[/quote]
It’s actually good for China. Because they act like Chinese investments aboard. And their businesses usually involve facilitating trade with China and knowledge transfers to China.
The world is changing. We need to embrace globalization and world citizenry.[/quote]
Dude, you sound like a PRC spokesperson, there’s a positive spin to anything and everything.
July 21, 2017 at 3:33 PM #807262Guest[quote=ocrenter]
Dude, you sound like a PRC spokesperson, there’s a positive spin to anything and everything.[/quote]
Yeah, sorry about that. It does sound apologist.
But I happen to know a lot of overseas Chinese who trade with China. The new generations of immigrants keep close contact with the home country. They don’t want to become ordinary employees so they more often than not run businesses that involve trade.
Plus I don’t want to see China fail. It would be a disaster for humanity because hundreds of millions of people will see development retarded, perhaps too late in their lifetimes.
Another thing is that China does not allow dual citizenship so people are reluctant to give up citizenship lest that cuts them off from opportunities that made them rich in the first place. If you fall out of favor, you may want to immigrate but if you’re steadily making money, would you want to forgo the opportunities? Yeah, you may want to send your wife and children overseas while you continue to work.
Ownership of PRC real estate by foreigners is only allowed for own use to those who are residents. That is a problem for foreign investors.
July 22, 2017 at 3:32 AM #807263Participant[quote=FlyerInHi]
Plus I don’t want to see China fail. It would be a disaster for humanity because hundreds of millions of people will see development retarded, perhaps too late in their lifetimes.
.[/quote]
I agree with the desire to see a successful China that matures into a prosperous first world nation. That will end up lifting up not just Chinese citizens, but also the surrounding countries and the world as well.
However, there is way too many parallels with Nazi Germany in regard to its nationalistic fervor.
It desires union of ethnic Han Chinese states under one roof, aka Taiwan (much like the desire to have all ethnic German states unite under one roof, for example the annexation of Austria).
It claims the right to protect ethnic Chinese populations in neighboring states such as Malaysia and Indonesia (much like the claim to protect ethnic Germans in neighboring states such as Czechoslovakia and Poland).
It continues to nurse a bruised ego for past wrongs, aka hundred years of humiliation (much like Germany nursing bruised ego from WWI and its unfair treaties).
There were plenty of German fans in the west back in those days that rooted for Nazi Germany to thrive and become a mature and successful member state of the world.
Don’t ignore the parallels, don’t be on the side of appeasement, don’t stay silent on clear violations of human rights and acts of aggression. By being tough with China, you are helping China grow up as a mature upright citizen. By being soft and apologist, you allow the nationalistic tendencies to grow unchecked and you’ll end up with WWIII on your hands.
July 22, 2017 at 11:22 AM #807264GuestDid you read Thucydides’ Trap?
https://www.google.com/amp/foreignpolicy.com/2017/06/09/the-thucydides-trap/amp/
Apparently, the Chinese leadership knows about it and they expressly want to avoid it.
If there is war, if will be the USA going to war in Asia. Weapons systems have changed and $ multi billion aircraft carriers can be sunk by cheap submarines or missiles. The chinese are leaders in consumer drones and I’m sure they are applying new tech to military hardware.
Anyway, I agree, we should pressure and help China become a progressive prosperous country. Not a competitor but a partner on economic and security matters. Win-win for humanity
It will be interesting to watch. The established power must learn some humility and allow room for the rising power. And the rising power must rise in a benign manner not to upset the existing military balance. The need to bend it over time, not upset it.
Unlike Japan Korea and Taiwan, China has been very good at incorporating foreign investments into its economy. We’ll see.
July 23, 2017 at 6:35 AM #807268Participant[quote=FlyerInHi]Did you read Thucydides’ Trap?
https://www.google.com/amp/foreignpolicy.com/2017/06/09/the-thucydides-trap/amp/
[/quote]
I see we read the same article and came to very different conclusions.
“Maintaining China’s extraordinary economic growth, which provides legitimacy for sweeping party rule, is a high-wire act that will only get harder.”
unfortunately the maintenance of this extraordinary growth is via bubble economics. and remember, they can make up their economic numbers, so no one on the outside can really decipher how bad things are.
http://video.vanityfair.com/watch/the-new-establishment-summit-disrupting-the-global-economy
Now here’s what the article stated about the US:
“Meanwhile, in the United States, sluggish growth is the new normal. And American democracy is exhibiting worrisome symptoms: declining civic engagement, institutionalized corruption, and widespread lack of trust in politics.”
the biggest difference here is one government relies on high growth for its legitimacy. and if you read the “problems” given for the US, it turns out every single point mentioned are realities within China. There is no civic engagement, there is widespread corruption, and lack of trust in politics is a given.
Going back to the Thucydides’ Trap. China’s highwire act does have a “safety net” of nationalism the CCP perpetuates and plan to flame in the event of economic disaster.
https://widerimage.reuters.com/story/chinas-world-of-anti-japan-war-films
Can you imagine if 70% of all of our TV shows and movies are all war related? and the bulk are all against Russia or Muslims?
In the event China does utilize that nationalism safety net to maintain its legitimacy, is the US willing to check China? Or will political appeasement win, which further the flame of such nationalism.
July 23, 2017 at 10:49 AM #807270Guest[quote=ocrenter]
In the event China does utilize that nationalism safety net to maintain its legitimacy, is the US willing to check China? Or will political appeasement win, which further the flame of such nationalism.[/quote]We didn’t go to war over Crimea.
July 23, 2017 at 8:27 PM #807272Participant[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=ocrenter]
In the event China does utilize that nationalism safety net to maintain its legitimacy, is the US willing to check China? Or will political appeasement win, which further the flame of such nationalism.[/quote]We didn’t go to war over Crimea.[/quote]
Exactly.
We didn’t have to go to war, but more direct military support for Ukraine would have kept the conflict at Crimea. Instead we have Donetsk and Luhansk. Followed by Putin’s arrogant and blatant interference in our and other European elections.
Thank you for the perfect example.
July 24, 2017 at 2:42 PM #807273Guest[quote=ocrenter]
Exactly.
[/quote]Latest news. China is populating the disputed islands.
I wonder what the Taiwanese and Vietnamese press are saying.Will there be a statement from Trump’s State Department or intelligence agencies? Probably not… maybe the China analysts have been fired due to budget cuts.
Will Trump himself say something?I’m sure the Russians and Chinese are rejoicing at the distinction in D.C.
Notice that Putin and Xi are very tight. Putin was in Beijing next to Xi In Beijing at Belt and Road Forum that the major western leaders snubbed. -
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