GM massacre

[PadreBrian]

Kind of funny GM killed off the electric trolley systems in the US, killed off their electric car division by starving it to death, and now the Volt which they are killing in the womb by under-engineering and stretching out the delivery date to 2010.

GM could have have had a hit with their Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky…small sporty fuel sipping coupes. BUT, they managed to Funk EVEN that up. They only make 15k of each and there’s 3 month waiting lists. All the while they are going to make 100k worth of large trucks. WTF.

[poorsaver]

GM’s business model is crap. They should be in BK within a year.

Concerning American made cars vs. foreign, let me share my experiences. I currently drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee and a Mini Cooper. This is my fourth Grand Cherokee in 15 years. Most reliable cars I’ve ever owned. My Mini keeps going back to the shop for “check engine” light. Four times, and it still does it. I’ve given up and just reset the light myself with a handheld analyzer. Other than that, very fun car and economical. My sons and ex-wife have had four BMWs. Every one has had numerous electrical and engine problems. In fact one is currently disabled with a seized engine due to all the oil dumping out on the freeway. My daughter had a Ford Mustang I bought her for her sixteenth birthday. She drove it all through college and put 120K miles on it. It never saw the dealer’s shop since we bought it. I wanted reliability for her, and that’s what I got. My best friend has had two Suburbans. Each one he put over 200K miles on them. No major problems. In summary, over the past twenty five years, I have owned Jeeps (4), Mini, Mercedes, Mazda, Isusu, Ford, Porsches (5), BMWs (3), Mitisubishi (3), Chrysler (2), and Toyota, which should be a fairly good sampling. The American made cars were by far the most reliable. End of story.

[poorsaver]

GM’s business model is crap. They should be in BK within a year.

Concerning American made cars vs. foreign, let me share my experiences. I currently drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee and a Mini Cooper. This is my fourth Grand Cherokee in 15 years. Most reliable cars I’ve ever owned. My Mini keeps going back to the shop for “check engine” light. Four times, and it still does it. I’ve given up and just reset the light myself with a handheld analyzer. Other than that, very fun car and economical. My sons and ex-wife have had four BMWs. Every one has had numerous electrical and engine problems. In fact one is currently disabled with a seized engine due to all the oil dumping out on the freeway. My daughter had a Ford Mustang I bought her for her sixteenth birthday. She drove it all through college and put 120K miles on it. It never saw the dealer’s shop since we bought it. I wanted reliability for her, and that’s what I got. My best friend has had two Suburbans. Each one he put over 200K miles on them. No major problems. In summary, over the past twenty five years, I have owned Jeeps (4), Mini, Mercedes, Mazda, Isusu, Ford, Porsches (5), BMWs (3), Mitisubishi (3), Chrysler (2), and Toyota, which should be a fairly good sampling. The American made cars were by far the most reliable. End of story.

[poorsaver]

GM’s business model is crap. They should be in BK within a year.

Concerning American made cars vs. foreign, let me share my experiences. I currently drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee and a Mini Cooper. This is my fourth Grand Cherokee in 15 years. Most reliable cars I’ve ever owned. My Mini keeps going back to the shop for “check engine” light. Four times, and it still does it. I’ve given up and just reset the light myself with a handheld analyzer. Other than that, very fun car and economical. My sons and ex-wife have had four BMWs. Every one has had numerous electrical and engine problems. In fact one is currently disabled with a seized engine due to all the oil dumping out on the freeway. My daughter had a Ford Mustang I bought her for her sixteenth birthday. She drove it all through college and put 120K miles on it. It never saw the dealer’s shop since we bought it. I wanted reliability for her, and that’s what I got. My best friend has had two Suburbans. Each one he put over 200K miles on them. No major problems. In summary, over the past twenty five years, I have owned Jeeps (4), Mini, Mercedes, Mazda, Isusu, Ford, Porsches (5), BMWs (3), Mitisubishi (3), Chrysler (2), and Toyota, which should be a fairly good sampling. The American made cars were by far the most reliable. End of story.

[poorsaver]

GM’s business model is crap. They should be in BK within a year.

Concerning American made cars vs. foreign, let me share my experiences. I currently drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee and a Mini Cooper. This is my fourth Grand Cherokee in 15 years. Most reliable cars I’ve ever owned. My Mini keeps going back to the shop for “check engine” light. Four times, and it still does it. I’ve given up and just reset the light myself with a handheld analyzer. Other than that, very fun car and economical. My sons and ex-wife have had four BMWs. Every one has had numerous electrical and engine problems. In fact one is currently disabled with a seized engine due to all the oil dumping out on the freeway. My daughter had a Ford Mustang I bought her for her sixteenth birthday. She drove it all through college and put 120K miles on it. It never saw the dealer’s shop since we bought it. I wanted reliability for her, and that’s what I got. My best friend has had two Suburbans. Each one he put over 200K miles on them. No major problems. In summary, over the past twenty five years, I have owned Jeeps (4), Mini, Mercedes, Mazda, Isusu, Ford, Porsches (5), BMWs (3), Mitisubishi (3), Chrysler (2), and Toyota, which should be a fairly good sampling. The American made cars were by far the most reliable. End of story.

[poorsaver]

GM’s business model is crap. They should be in BK within a year.

Concerning American made cars vs. foreign, let me share my experiences. I currently drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee and a Mini Cooper. This is my fourth Grand Cherokee in 15 years. Most reliable cars I’ve ever owned. My Mini keeps going back to the shop for “check engine” light. Four times, and it still does it. I’ve given up and just reset the light myself with a handheld analyzer. Other than that, very fun car and economical. My sons and ex-wife have had four BMWs. Every one has had numerous electrical and engine problems. In fact one is currently disabled with a seized engine due to all the oil dumping out on the freeway. My daughter had a Ford Mustang I bought her for her sixteenth birthday. She drove it all through college and put 120K miles on it. It never saw the dealer’s shop since we bought it. I wanted reliability for her, and that’s what I got. My best friend has had two Suburbans. Each one he put over 200K miles on them. No major problems. In summary, over the past twenty five years, I have owned Jeeps (4), Mini, Mercedes, Mazda, Isusu, Ford, Porsches (5), BMWs (3), Mitisubishi (3), Chrysler (2), and Toyota, which should be a fairly good sampling. The American made cars were by far the most reliable. End of story.

[patb]

[quote=equalizer]patb,

very astute comments, however the politicos would demand that most plants would stay open and that’s why toyota will stay away unless they are asked.

So I assume you think some GM debt may be a good buy? Debt research is not trivial. [/quote]

That the politico’s may demand the GM Plants stay open
but if Toyota takes a bleed and die approach, of saying they will
sell certain plants to toyota and keep those open.
GM is closing plenty of plants right now.

as for teh debt it’s a lousy deal, but, if you own the debt you
can control the bankruptcy proces

[patb]

[quote=equalizer]patb,

very astute comments, however the politicos would demand that most plants would stay open and that’s why toyota will stay away unless they are asked.

So I assume you think some GM debt may be a good buy? Debt research is not trivial. [/quote]

That the politico’s may demand the GM Plants stay open
but if Toyota takes a bleed and die approach, of saying they will
sell certain plants to toyota and keep those open.
GM is closing plenty of plants right now.

as for teh debt it’s a lousy deal, but, if you own the debt you
can control the bankruptcy proces

[patb]

[quote=equalizer]patb,

very astute comments, however the politicos would demand that most plants would stay open and that’s why toyota will stay away unless they are asked.

So I assume you think some GM debt may be a good buy? Debt research is not trivial. [/quote]

That the politico’s may demand the GM Plants stay open
but if Toyota takes a bleed and die approach, of saying they will
sell certain plants to toyota and keep those open.
GM is closing plenty of plants right now.

as for teh debt it’s a lousy deal, but, if you own the debt you
can control the bankruptcy proces

[patb]

[quote=equalizer]patb,

very astute comments, however the politicos would demand that most plants would stay open and that’s why toyota will stay away unless they are asked.

So I assume you think some GM debt may be a good buy? Debt research is not trivial. [/quote]

That the politico’s may demand the GM Plants stay open
but if Toyota takes a bleed and die approach, of saying they will
sell certain plants to toyota and keep those open.
GM is closing plenty of plants right now.

as for teh debt it’s a lousy deal, but, if you own the debt you
can control the bankruptcy proces

[patb]

[quote=equalizer]patb,

very astute comments, however the politicos would demand that most plants would stay open and that’s why toyota will stay away unless they are asked.

So I assume you think some GM debt may be a good buy? Debt research is not trivial. [/quote]

That the politico’s may demand the GM Plants stay open
but if Toyota takes a bleed and die approach, of saying they will
sell certain plants to toyota and keep those open.
GM is closing plenty of plants right now.

as for teh debt it’s a lousy deal, but, if you own the debt you
can control the bankruptcy proces

[svelte]

It is not now, nor has it ever been, the wisest idea to determine a car’s anticipated reliability based upon the country in which it was built or where the HQ is located. It is far better to judge based upon the individual car company and, better yet, the individual model.

Japan has gotten a good rep over the last few decades based almost entirely on Toyota and Honda. But I can give you example after example on absolutely horrid cars from Mitsubishi, Subaru, and yes even Datsun/Nissan. Do any of you recall the US govt pressuring Nissan to buy back and crush all of the first gen minivans they brought over here because they could not keep them from catching fire, even after several recalls? They eventually did buy them all back.

Even Toyota is slipping now – take a close look at the newest gen Tundra record…pretty pitiful (I can supply links if necessary).

I keep my cars up to 150K miles and have owned 5 American cars to this mileage. The most expensive repair for any of these was one grand to replace an a/c condenser and it was covered under warranty. None of the vehicles needed more than two repairs in 150K miles, and most of those were also warranty work (highest out-of-pocket I’ve paid total for any of those cars is about $500). And I still own a 220K mile Chrysler that is probably going to go forever. Original radiator, alternator, water pump, and it regularly passes smog with nary a wimper.

Now let’s compare to my nearest neighbors. Across the street, Honda Accord needed a new tranny at under 100K miles. Next door, Infinity G35 – 3 yrs old – has had the drivers window motor replace FOUR TIMES. Yikes! I thought this was a fluke (maybe bad wiring in that particular car?) until a second friend has told me his G35 is on it’s third driver window motor. Ouch.

I’m not saying Honda/Nissans/Toyotas are crap – I have no doubt you can dig up similar stories on GM/Ford/Chrysler. I’m just saying that the difference in quality of cars now is so small as to be not even worth discussing or considering when making a purchase.

If you track JD Powers defects per vehicle over the years, you’ll see the range from best to worst has become increasingly small (and the rankings will likely surprise you).

Anyone who tells you that you have to buy Japanese (or American or German or Swedish) to get high quality is only showing their prejudices. Buy the car that best fits your lifestyle and be happy. It’s a great world with many choices out there.

[svelte]

It is not now, nor has it ever been, the wisest idea to determine a car’s anticipated reliability based upon the country in which it was built or where the HQ is located. It is far better to judge based upon the individual car company and, better yet, the individual model.

Japan has gotten a good rep over the last few decades based almost entirely on Toyota and Honda. But I can give you example after example on absolutely horrid cars from Mitsubishi, Subaru, and yes even Datsun/Nissan. Do any of you recall the US govt pressuring Nissan to buy back and crush all of the first gen minivans they brought over here because they could not keep them from catching fire, even after several recalls? They eventually did buy them all back.

Even Toyota is slipping now – take a close look at the newest gen Tundra record…pretty pitiful (I can supply links if necessary).

I keep my cars up to 150K miles and have owned 5 American cars to this mileage. The most expensive repair for any of these was one grand to replace an a/c condenser and it was covered under warranty. None of the vehicles needed more than two repairs in 150K miles, and most of those were also warranty work (highest out-of-pocket I’ve paid total for any of those cars is about $500). And I still own a 220K mile Chrysler that is probably going to go forever. Original radiator, alternator, water pump, and it regularly passes smog with nary a wimper.

Now let’s compare to my nearest neighbors. Across the street, Honda Accord needed a new tranny at under 100K miles. Next door, Infinity G35 – 3 yrs old – has had the drivers window motor replace FOUR TIMES. Yikes! I thought this was a fluke (maybe bad wiring in that particular car?) until a second friend has told me his G35 is on it’s third driver window motor. Ouch.

I’m not saying Honda/Nissans/Toyotas are crap – I have no doubt you can dig up similar stories on GM/Ford/Chrysler. I’m just saying that the difference in quality of cars now is so small as to be not even worth discussing or considering when making a purchase.

If you track JD Powers defects per vehicle over the years, you’ll see the range from best to worst has become increasingly small (and the rankings will likely surprise you).

Anyone who tells you that you have to buy Japanese (or American or German or Swedish) to get high quality is only showing their prejudices. Buy the car that best fits your lifestyle and be happy. It’s a great world with many choices out there.

[svelte]

It is not now, nor has it ever been, the wisest idea to determine a car’s anticipated reliability based upon the country in which it was built or where the HQ is located. It is far better to judge based upon the individual car company and, better yet, the individual model.

Japan has gotten a good rep over the last few decades based almost entirely on Toyota and Honda. But I can give you example after example on absolutely horrid cars from Mitsubishi, Subaru, and yes even Datsun/Nissan. Do any of you recall the US govt pressuring Nissan to buy back and crush all of the first gen minivans they brought over here because they could not keep them from catching fire, even after several recalls? They eventually did buy them all back.

Even Toyota is slipping now – take a close look at the newest gen Tundra record…pretty pitiful (I can supply links if necessary).

I keep my cars up to 150K miles and have owned 5 American cars to this mileage. The most expensive repair for any of these was one grand to replace an a/c condenser and it was covered under warranty. None of the vehicles needed more than two repairs in 150K miles, and most of those were also warranty work (highest out-of-pocket I’ve paid total for any of those cars is about $500). And I still own a 220K mile Chrysler that is probably going to go forever. Original radiator, alternator, water pump, and it regularly passes smog with nary a wimper.

Now let’s compare to my nearest neighbors. Across the street, Honda Accord needed a new tranny at under 100K miles. Next door, Infinity G35 – 3 yrs old – has had the drivers window motor replace FOUR TIMES. Yikes! I thought this was a fluke (maybe bad wiring in that particular car?) until a second friend has told me his G35 is on it’s third driver window motor. Ouch.

I’m not saying Honda/Nissans/Toyotas are crap – I have no doubt you can dig up similar stories on GM/Ford/Chrysler. I’m just saying that the difference in quality of cars now is so small as to be not even worth discussing or considering when making a purchase.

If you track JD Powers defects per vehicle over the years, you’ll see the range from best to worst has become increasingly small (and the rankings will likely surprise you).

Anyone who tells you that you have to buy Japanese (or American or German or Swedish) to get high quality is only showing their prejudices. Buy the car that best fits your lifestyle and be happy. It’s a great world with many choices out there.

[svelte]

It is not now, nor has it ever been, the wisest idea to determine a car’s anticipated reliability based upon the country in which it was built or where the HQ is located. It is far better to judge based upon the individual car company and, better yet, the individual model.

Japan has gotten a good rep over the last few decades based almost entirely on Toyota and Honda. But I can give you example after example on absolutely horrid cars from Mitsubishi, Subaru, and yes even Datsun/Nissan. Do any of you recall the US govt pressuring Nissan to buy back and crush all of the first gen minivans they brought over here because they could not keep them from catching fire, even after several recalls? They eventually did buy them all back.

Even Toyota is slipping now – take a close look at the newest gen Tundra record…pretty pitiful (I can supply links if necessary).

I keep my cars up to 150K miles and have owned 5 American cars to this mileage. The most expensive repair for any of these was one grand to replace an a/c condenser and it was covered under warranty. None of the vehicles needed more than two repairs in 150K miles, and most of those were also warranty work (highest out-of-pocket I’ve paid total for any of those cars is about $500). And I still own a 220K mile Chrysler that is probably going to go forever. Original radiator, alternator, water pump, and it regularly passes smog with nary a wimper.

Now let’s compare to my nearest neighbors. Across the street, Honda Accord needed a new tranny at under 100K miles. Next door, Infinity G35 – 3 yrs old – has had the drivers window motor replace FOUR TIMES. Yikes! I thought this was a fluke (maybe bad wiring in that particular car?) until a second friend has told me his G35 is on it’s third driver window motor. Ouch.

I’m not saying Honda/Nissans/Toyotas are crap – I have no doubt you can dig up similar stories on GM/Ford/Chrysler. I’m just saying that the difference in quality of cars now is so small as to be not even worth discussing or considering when making a purchase.

If you track JD Powers defects per vehicle over the years, you’ll see the range from best to worst has become increasingly small (and the rankings will likely surprise you).

Anyone who tells you that you have to buy Japanese (or American or German or Swedish) to get high quality is only showing their prejudices. Buy the car that best fits your lifestyle and be happy. It’s a great world with many choices out there.

[Author]

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