fixation on school districts

[Rich Toscano]

This is vaguely RE related but I will put it in OT anyway.

For a while I’ve been meaning to ask the Pigg community a question and I’m inspired to finally get to it by FLU’s latest post on school district scores ( http://piggington.com/ot_well_it_looks_like_the_latest_api_scores_our_out_for_sd_schoo — i started my own thread so as not to totally derail his).

OK, I guess it’s a two-parter. First — and please understand that I am totally ignorant on this topic, though as usual that hasn’t stopped me from forming an opinion — why the fixation on school district? I mean, you don’t want your kids getting stabbed or anything, but assuming you are above a certain threshhold, is going to one non-stabby school district vs. a slightly better non-stabby school district really going to make that big a difference in your kid’s career? Or, at least, is it making such a big impact as to justify the massive premiums that some areas seem to enjoy just because of their school systems?

As context for the question, I am pretty cynical about public education and formal education in general. I mean no offense to teachers, many of whom are awesome and victims of a really messed up system riddled with perverse incentives. But my K-12 education experience basically consisted of me being taught mostly kind of useless stuff, and me just later learning all the useful stuff on my own. Put another way I think the fact of the matter for better or worse is that the most important stuff is learned outside of school. Given this I have a hard time understanding how it will meaningfully impact a child’s life to go to one school over another just because one is slightly better based on some score.

This leads to my second question: it seems that school systems are judged on some sort of scoring system? Don’t people think that the schools are just gaming things to get a high score, as always happens in a bureaucratic system in which results are reduced to a numerical value? Or when people talk about school systems are they looking at other stuff too?

I’m not trying to rile anyone here — I have for a long time generally wondered these things. As mentioned above I have very little knowledge of these topics… just my own life experience, which doesn’t really jibe with the school system obsession that I seem to observe. But I could definitely be missing a piece of the puzzle here. I await enlightenment at the hands of the Piggs.

Rich

[an]

Personally, the API score is as flawed as the median housing price. Certain schools have much more diversity than others, which greatly affected the score. If you take just a single API score to judge a school, it’s almost like taking a median housing price to determine the strength of the housing market. The picture you’ll see, when you drill down to the different races will show a slightly better picture. Kind of like drilling down to the different zip codes to get a slightly better picture. I think school is only just one of the many factors in determining a premium of an area.

[an]

Personally, the API score is as flawed as the median housing price. Certain schools have much more diversity than others, which greatly affected the score. If you take just a single API score to judge a school, it’s almost like taking a median housing price to determine the strength of the housing market. The picture you’ll see, when you drill down to the different races will show a slightly better picture. Kind of like drilling down to the different zip codes to get a slightly better picture. I think school is only just one of the many factors in determining a premium of an area.

[an]

Personally, the API score is as flawed as the median housing price. Certain schools have much more diversity than others, which greatly affected the score. If you take just a single API score to judge a school, it’s almost like taking a median housing price to determine the strength of the housing market. The picture you’ll see, when you drill down to the different races will show a slightly better picture. Kind of like drilling down to the different zip codes to get a slightly better picture. I think school is only just one of the many factors in determining a premium of an area.

[an]

Personally, the API score is as flawed as the median housing price. Certain schools have much more diversity than others, which greatly affected the score. If you take just a single API score to judge a school, it’s almost like taking a median housing price to determine the strength of the housing market. The picture you’ll see, when you drill down to the different races will show a slightly better picture. Kind of like drilling down to the different zip codes to get a slightly better picture. I think school is only just one of the many factors in determining a premium of an area.

[an]

Personally, the API score is as flawed as the median housing price. Certain schools have much more diversity than others, which greatly affected the score. If you take just a single API score to judge a school, it’s almost like taking a median housing price to determine the strength of the housing market. The picture you’ll see, when you drill down to the different races will show a slightly better picture. Kind of like drilling down to the different zip codes to get a slightly better picture. I think school is only just one of the many factors in determining a premium of an area.

[Eugene]

Personally, I see these API scores as expressions of average IQ’s of all kids attending the school. And those are well correlated with IQ’s (and pocketbooks) of their parents. I don’t think that quality of education matters much. So it’s really not the issue of “Poway school district has great scores therefore houses are expensive”. Causation goes both ways. Rich and smart people settle in expensive and well maintained areas, their kids do well in schools, scores go up. Scores go up, area becomes attractive to parents, they compete for houses in a good school district, houses appreciate.

I agree that, above a certain threshold, score differences does not matter for most people. If you compare a house in Serra Mesa (bad schools) and a house in Rancho Penasquitos (good schools), the house in RP will be more expensive because the school district is better. But if you compare RP with Carmel Valley, causation goes in the opposite direction – CV scores are higher because houses are more expensive.

[Eugene]

Personally, I see these API scores as expressions of average IQ’s of all kids attending the school. And those are well correlated with IQ’s (and pocketbooks) of their parents. I don’t think that quality of education matters much. So it’s really not the issue of “Poway school district has great scores therefore houses are expensive”. Causation goes both ways. Rich and smart people settle in expensive and well maintained areas, their kids do well in schools, scores go up. Scores go up, area becomes attractive to parents, they compete for houses in a good school district, houses appreciate.

I agree that, above a certain threshold, score differences does not matter for most people. If you compare a house in Serra Mesa (bad schools) and a house in Rancho Penasquitos (good schools), the house in RP will be more expensive because the school district is better. But if you compare RP with Carmel Valley, causation goes in the opposite direction – CV scores are higher because houses are more expensive.

[Eugene]

Personally, I see these API scores as expressions of average IQ’s of all kids attending the school. And those are well correlated with IQ’s (and pocketbooks) of their parents. I don’t think that quality of education matters much. So it’s really not the issue of “Poway school district has great scores therefore houses are expensive”. Causation goes both ways. Rich and smart people settle in expensive and well maintained areas, their kids do well in schools, scores go up. Scores go up, area becomes attractive to parents, they compete for houses in a good school district, houses appreciate.

I agree that, above a certain threshold, score differences does not matter for most people. If you compare a house in Serra Mesa (bad schools) and a house in Rancho Penasquitos (good schools), the house in RP will be more expensive because the school district is better. But if you compare RP with Carmel Valley, causation goes in the opposite direction – CV scores are higher because houses are more expensive.

[Eugene]

Personally, I see these API scores as expressions of average IQ’s of all kids attending the school. And those are well correlated with IQ’s (and pocketbooks) of their parents. I don’t think that quality of education matters much. So it’s really not the issue of “Poway school district has great scores therefore houses are expensive”. Causation goes both ways. Rich and smart people settle in expensive and well maintained areas, their kids do well in schools, scores go up. Scores go up, area becomes attractive to parents, they compete for houses in a good school district, houses appreciate.

I agree that, above a certain threshold, score differences does not matter for most people. If you compare a house in Serra Mesa (bad schools) and a house in Rancho Penasquitos (good schools), the house in RP will be more expensive because the school district is better. But if you compare RP with Carmel Valley, causation goes in the opposite direction – CV scores are higher because houses are more expensive.

[Eugene]

Personally, I see these API scores as expressions of average IQ’s of all kids attending the school. And those are well correlated with IQ’s (and pocketbooks) of their parents. I don’t think that quality of education matters much. So it’s really not the issue of “Poway school district has great scores therefore houses are expensive”. Causation goes both ways. Rich and smart people settle in expensive and well maintained areas, their kids do well in schools, scores go up. Scores go up, area becomes attractive to parents, they compete for houses in a good school district, houses appreciate.

I agree that, above a certain threshold, score differences does not matter for most people. If you compare a house in Serra Mesa (bad schools) and a house in Rancho Penasquitos (good schools), the house in RP will be more expensive because the school district is better. But if you compare RP with Carmel Valley, causation goes in the opposite direction – CV scores are higher because houses are more expensive.

[XBoxBoy]

[quote=Rich Toscano] is going to one non-stabby school district vs. a slightly better non-stabby school district really going to make that big a difference in your kid’s career? [/quote]

So, I’m gonna guess that you don’t have any kids. ‘Cause this strange thing happens to people when they have kids. They suddenly start to think in all kinds of totally irrational ways, like… “I’ve got to get the very absolutely best that there is. Absolutely no compromising due to cost or anything else. My kid deserves the absolute best, top shelf, nothing else will do.”

The other reason of course is that most people have little financial reasoning ability to start with, and the idea of actually weighing the cost/benefits is beyond them. How else do you explain $150 jeans? I guess if you’re single and desperately trying to find a rich spouse, you could maybe justify that from a financial sense, but even there it seems a bit of a stretch to me.

[quote=Rich Toscano]Put another way I think the fact of the matter for better or worse is that the most important stuff is learned outside of school. Given this I have a hard time understanding how it will meaningfully impact a child’s life to go to one school over another just because one is slightly better based on some score.[/quote]

Of course this same argument could be used to question why people pay for ivy league colleges. But we’ve all heard of studies that show how much more money you make going to Harvard law or some such infamous place. Of course the fact that just getting into harvard law school is probably the better predictor, and completion of the degree is irrelevant.

[quote=Rich Toscano]Don’t people think that the schools are just gaming things to get a high score, as always happens in a bureaucratic system in which results are reduced to a numerical value?[/quote]

Yes of course the teachers are doing all they can to game the system. And they are doing it with the help of the administrators, politicians and the parents. Sorta like the loan business gaming all the loans with the help of the loan brokers, real estate agents, wall street banks, etc. It’s just good for everyone to cheat on those no doc loans. (See this is a thread about real estate!)

XBoxBoy

[XBoxBoy]

[quote=Rich Toscano] is going to one non-stabby school district vs. a slightly better non-stabby school district really going to make that big a difference in your kid’s career? [/quote]

So, I’m gonna guess that you don’t have any kids. ‘Cause this strange thing happens to people when they have kids. They suddenly start to think in all kinds of totally irrational ways, like… “I’ve got to get the very absolutely best that there is. Absolutely no compromising due to cost or anything else. My kid deserves the absolute best, top shelf, nothing else will do.”

The other reason of course is that most people have little financial reasoning ability to start with, and the idea of actually weighing the cost/benefits is beyond them. How else do you explain $150 jeans? I guess if you’re single and desperately trying to find a rich spouse, you could maybe justify that from a financial sense, but even there it seems a bit of a stretch to me.

[quote=Rich Toscano]Put another way I think the fact of the matter for better or worse is that the most important stuff is learned outside of school. Given this I have a hard time understanding how it will meaningfully impact a child’s life to go to one school over another just because one is slightly better based on some score.[/quote]

Of course this same argument could be used to question why people pay for ivy league colleges. But we’ve all heard of studies that show how much more money you make going to Harvard law or some such infamous place. Of course the fact that just getting into harvard law school is probably the better predictor, and completion of the degree is irrelevant.

[quote=Rich Toscano]Don’t people think that the schools are just gaming things to get a high score, as always happens in a bureaucratic system in which results are reduced to a numerical value?[/quote]

Yes of course the teachers are doing all they can to game the system. And they are doing it with the help of the administrators, politicians and the parents. Sorta like the loan business gaming all the loans with the help of the loan brokers, real estate agents, wall street banks, etc. It’s just good for everyone to cheat on those no doc loans. (See this is a thread about real estate!)

XBoxBoy

[XBoxBoy]

[quote=Rich Toscano] is going to one non-stabby school district vs. a slightly better non-stabby school district really going to make that big a difference in your kid’s career? [/quote]

So, I’m gonna guess that you don’t have any kids. ‘Cause this strange thing happens to people when they have kids. They suddenly start to think in all kinds of totally irrational ways, like… “I’ve got to get the very absolutely best that there is. Absolutely no compromising due to cost or anything else. My kid deserves the absolute best, top shelf, nothing else will do.”

The other reason of course is that most people have little financial reasoning ability to start with, and the idea of actually weighing the cost/benefits is beyond them. How else do you explain $150 jeans? I guess if you’re single and desperately trying to find a rich spouse, you could maybe justify that from a financial sense, but even there it seems a bit of a stretch to me.

[quote=Rich Toscano]Put another way I think the fact of the matter for better or worse is that the most important stuff is learned outside of school. Given this I have a hard time understanding how it will meaningfully impact a child’s life to go to one school over another just because one is slightly better based on some score.[/quote]

Of course this same argument could be used to question why people pay for ivy league colleges. But we’ve all heard of studies that show how much more money you make going to Harvard law or some such infamous place. Of course the fact that just getting into harvard law school is probably the better predictor, and completion of the degree is irrelevant.

[quote=Rich Toscano]Don’t people think that the schools are just gaming things to get a high score, as always happens in a bureaucratic system in which results are reduced to a numerical value?[/quote]

Yes of course the teachers are doing all they can to game the system. And they are doing it with the help of the administrators, politicians and the parents. Sorta like the loan business gaming all the loans with the help of the loan brokers, real estate agents, wall street banks, etc. It’s just good for everyone to cheat on those no doc loans. (See this is a thread about real estate!)

XBoxBoy

[XBoxBoy]

[quote=Rich Toscano] is going to one non-stabby school district vs. a slightly better non-stabby school district really going to make that big a difference in your kid’s career? [/quote]

So, I’m gonna guess that you don’t have any kids. ‘Cause this strange thing happens to people when they have kids. They suddenly start to think in all kinds of totally irrational ways, like… “I’ve got to get the very absolutely best that there is. Absolutely no compromising due to cost or anything else. My kid deserves the absolute best, top shelf, nothing else will do.”

The other reason of course is that most people have little financial reasoning ability to start with, and the idea of actually weighing the cost/benefits is beyond them. How else do you explain $150 jeans? I guess if you’re single and desperately trying to find a rich spouse, you could maybe justify that from a financial sense, but even there it seems a bit of a stretch to me.

[quote=Rich Toscano]Put another way I think the fact of the matter for better or worse is that the most important stuff is learned outside of school. Given this I have a hard time understanding how it will meaningfully impact a child’s life to go to one school over another just because one is slightly better based on some score.[/quote]

Of course this same argument could be used to question why people pay for ivy league colleges. But we’ve all heard of studies that show how much more money you make going to Harvard law or some such infamous place. Of course the fact that just getting into harvard law school is probably the better predictor, and completion of the degree is irrelevant.

[quote=Rich Toscano]Don’t people think that the schools are just gaming things to get a high score, as always happens in a bureaucratic system in which results are reduced to a numerical value?[/quote]

Yes of course the teachers are doing all they can to game the system. And they are doing it with the help of the administrators, politicians and the parents. Sorta like the loan business gaming all the loans with the help of the loan brokers, real estate agents, wall street banks, etc. It’s just good for everyone to cheat on those no doc loans. (See this is a thread about real estate!)

XBoxBoy

[Author]

Posts