Elections Tuesday

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=pri_dk][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]No ignorance is more frightening than when its apparently cloaked in education.[/quote]

You mean like this?

http://creationmuseum.org/about/%5B/quote%5D

Pri: Yeahhhhh… On this one, I’m actually going to have to agree with Brian and say that certain people shouldn’t be allowed to propagate.

I had to sit through a discussion on this place with a Born Again Christian of the New Earth variety and I was ready to convert to Islam and issue a fatwa by the end of the conversation. But, as Cardiff correctly pointed out, these folks are outnumbered by sentient Christians by a good 10 – 1 margin. Hopefully.

[briansd1]

More on religious fervor.

I don’t think these people are the exception. They are one of the driving forces, and some of the strongest voices in the Conservative movement.

“I’m dressed as Nancy Pelosi burning in hell,” Rocco-Grandy said, explaining her getup. “So I have a suit on that’s singed and covered in blood, and I have chains on, and I had dead babies draped from me.”

Rocco-Grandy is angry that the bill doesn’t explicitly ban all federal funding for abortion.

“If Nancy Pelosi doesn’t repent, and we pray that she does repent, and that she removes funding for child-killing from the health care bill,” she said. “But if she does not, then she would be in danger of going to hell for forcing taxpayers also to pay for the murder of children.”

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120176878

[briansd1]

More on religious fervor.

I don’t think these people are the exception. They are one of the driving forces, and some of the strongest voices in the Conservative movement.

“I’m dressed as Nancy Pelosi burning in hell,” Rocco-Grandy said, explaining her getup. “So I have a suit on that’s singed and covered in blood, and I have chains on, and I had dead babies draped from me.”

Rocco-Grandy is angry that the bill doesn’t explicitly ban all federal funding for abortion.

“If Nancy Pelosi doesn’t repent, and we pray that she does repent, and that she removes funding for child-killing from the health care bill,” she said. “But if she does not, then she would be in danger of going to hell for forcing taxpayers also to pay for the murder of children.”

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120176878

[briansd1]

More on religious fervor.

I don’t think these people are the exception. They are one of the driving forces, and some of the strongest voices in the Conservative movement.

“I’m dressed as Nancy Pelosi burning in hell,” Rocco-Grandy said, explaining her getup. “So I have a suit on that’s singed and covered in blood, and I have chains on, and I had dead babies draped from me.”

Rocco-Grandy is angry that the bill doesn’t explicitly ban all federal funding for abortion.

“If Nancy Pelosi doesn’t repent, and we pray that she does repent, and that she removes funding for child-killing from the health care bill,” she said. “But if she does not, then she would be in danger of going to hell for forcing taxpayers also to pay for the murder of children.”

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120176878

[briansd1]

More on religious fervor.

I don’t think these people are the exception. They are one of the driving forces, and some of the strongest voices in the Conservative movement.

“I’m dressed as Nancy Pelosi burning in hell,” Rocco-Grandy said, explaining her getup. “So I have a suit on that’s singed and covered in blood, and I have chains on, and I had dead babies draped from me.”

Rocco-Grandy is angry that the bill doesn’t explicitly ban all federal funding for abortion.

“If Nancy Pelosi doesn’t repent, and we pray that she does repent, and that she removes funding for child-killing from the health care bill,” she said. “But if she does not, then she would be in danger of going to hell for forcing taxpayers also to pay for the murder of children.”

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120176878

[briansd1]

More on religious fervor.

I don’t think these people are the exception. They are one of the driving forces, and some of the strongest voices in the Conservative movement.

“I’m dressed as Nancy Pelosi burning in hell,” Rocco-Grandy said, explaining her getup. “So I have a suit on that’s singed and covered in blood, and I have chains on, and I had dead babies draped from me.”

Rocco-Grandy is angry that the bill doesn’t explicitly ban all federal funding for abortion.

“If Nancy Pelosi doesn’t repent, and we pray that she does repent, and that she removes funding for child-killing from the health care bill,” she said. “But if she does not, then she would be in danger of going to hell for forcing taxpayers also to pay for the murder of children.”

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120176878

[afx114]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]As to Faith: To me, Faith is more than a comfortable stopgap when I don’t have a better explanation. Faith is the belief in something More that I cannot comprehend and Reason provides the process whereby I can educate myself and move closer to find answers to the great questions. I think there is a meaning to life and I think we are here for some reason other than just existing and passing on.[/quote]

Well said, and I don’t necessarily disagree with your definition here. I think that it is a distinctly human trait to need to attach meaning to everything. But sometimes a grain of dirt is just a grain of dirt, and it doesn’t need to have a meaning. Likewise, I’m perfectly content knowing that my body is nothing more than a cluster of cells made up of various elements and that and my consciousness is nothing more than a series of electrical impulses firing inside this mass of cells we call a brain. I understand how people of faith may find this point of view sad, lonely, and depressing, but I find it humbling to know my true place in the grand scheme of the universe rather than inventing one to feel good about myself. The universe has gone on long before me and will continue long after me — and that is the source of my awe.

[afx114]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]As to Faith: To me, Faith is more than a comfortable stopgap when I don’t have a better explanation. Faith is the belief in something More that I cannot comprehend and Reason provides the process whereby I can educate myself and move closer to find answers to the great questions. I think there is a meaning to life and I think we are here for some reason other than just existing and passing on.[/quote]

Well said, and I don’t necessarily disagree with your definition here. I think that it is a distinctly human trait to need to attach meaning to everything. But sometimes a grain of dirt is just a grain of dirt, and it doesn’t need to have a meaning. Likewise, I’m perfectly content knowing that my body is nothing more than a cluster of cells made up of various elements and that and my consciousness is nothing more than a series of electrical impulses firing inside this mass of cells we call a brain. I understand how people of faith may find this point of view sad, lonely, and depressing, but I find it humbling to know my true place in the grand scheme of the universe rather than inventing one to feel good about myself. The universe has gone on long before me and will continue long after me — and that is the source of my awe.

[afx114]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]As to Faith: To me, Faith is more than a comfortable stopgap when I don’t have a better explanation. Faith is the belief in something More that I cannot comprehend and Reason provides the process whereby I can educate myself and move closer to find answers to the great questions. I think there is a meaning to life and I think we are here for some reason other than just existing and passing on.[/quote]

Well said, and I don’t necessarily disagree with your definition here. I think that it is a distinctly human trait to need to attach meaning to everything. But sometimes a grain of dirt is just a grain of dirt, and it doesn’t need to have a meaning. Likewise, I’m perfectly content knowing that my body is nothing more than a cluster of cells made up of various elements and that and my consciousness is nothing more than a series of electrical impulses firing inside this mass of cells we call a brain. I understand how people of faith may find this point of view sad, lonely, and depressing, but I find it humbling to know my true place in the grand scheme of the universe rather than inventing one to feel good about myself. The universe has gone on long before me and will continue long after me — and that is the source of my awe.

[afx114]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]As to Faith: To me, Faith is more than a comfortable stopgap when I don’t have a better explanation. Faith is the belief in something More that I cannot comprehend and Reason provides the process whereby I can educate myself and move closer to find answers to the great questions. I think there is a meaning to life and I think we are here for some reason other than just existing and passing on.[/quote]

Well said, and I don’t necessarily disagree with your definition here. I think that it is a distinctly human trait to need to attach meaning to everything. But sometimes a grain of dirt is just a grain of dirt, and it doesn’t need to have a meaning. Likewise, I’m perfectly content knowing that my body is nothing more than a cluster of cells made up of various elements and that and my consciousness is nothing more than a series of electrical impulses firing inside this mass of cells we call a brain. I understand how people of faith may find this point of view sad, lonely, and depressing, but I find it humbling to know my true place in the grand scheme of the universe rather than inventing one to feel good about myself. The universe has gone on long before me and will continue long after me — and that is the source of my awe.

[afx114]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]As to Faith: To me, Faith is more than a comfortable stopgap when I don’t have a better explanation. Faith is the belief in something More that I cannot comprehend and Reason provides the process whereby I can educate myself and move closer to find answers to the great questions. I think there is a meaning to life and I think we are here for some reason other than just existing and passing on.[/quote]

Well said, and I don’t necessarily disagree with your definition here. I think that it is a distinctly human trait to need to attach meaning to everything. But sometimes a grain of dirt is just a grain of dirt, and it doesn’t need to have a meaning. Likewise, I’m perfectly content knowing that my body is nothing more than a cluster of cells made up of various elements and that and my consciousness is nothing more than a series of electrical impulses firing inside this mass of cells we call a brain. I understand how people of faith may find this point of view sad, lonely, and depressing, but I find it humbling to know my true place in the grand scheme of the universe rather than inventing one to feel good about myself. The universe has gone on long before me and will continue long after me — and that is the source of my awe.

[Arraya]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

To me, Faith and Reason do support each other. They are the “two wings of enlightenment” and BOTH are necessary.[/quote]

Indeed, Allan, the Ying and Yang, IMO

Beware of the Cartesian Cavalry shouting “empiricism! empiricism! I don’t have a soul and I don’t want one!”

My degree is in Philosophy of science so I am well versed in being hostile towards meaning;)

To me, the irony of science has always been the one miracle needed to make the whole thing work. Which is the big bang theory. What could me more miraculous than that. Just give science their one miracle and the rest has to be empirically tested to be “truth”

A point of singularity that exploded into an electron plasma, then cooled into chemical compounds so forth and so on, all the way up to biological species in complex social systems connected to high speed fiber optics discussing meaning or lack thereof with other beings around the globe. Where is this train going?

A given about the universe it that is seeks complexity through a series of thermodynamic rebalancings. This is a given, yet science can not reconcile with an obvious direction, because, direction would indicate purpose or meaning.

Yet science is going to tell you that the only things worth describing are those phenomena that can be repeatedly triggered. This is being these are the only phenomena that science can describe and that’s the name of the game as far as they are concerned

A French Jesuit, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin came up with a theory around the turn of the century that I always liked.

to describe a maximum level of complexity and consciousness towards which the universe appears to be evolving. Teilhard’s term recurs in both intellectual works and popular culture, especially the cosmological theory proposed by the mathematical physicist Frank Tipler.

In this theory, the universe is constantly developing towards higher levels of material complexity and consciousness, a theory of evolution that Teilhard called the Law of Complexity/Consciousness. For Teilhard, the universe can only move in the direction of more complexity and consciousness if it is being drawn by a supreme point of complexity and consciousness. Thus Teilhard postulates the Omega Point as the supreme point of complexity and consciousness, which is not only as the term of the evolutionary process, but is also the actual cause for the universe to grow in complexity and consciousness. In other words, the Omega Point exists as supremely complex and conscious, independent of the evolving universe. I.e., the Omega Point is transcendent. In interpreting the universe this way, Teilhard kept the Omega Point within the orthodox views of the Christian God, who is transcendent (independent) of his creation.

Or what the Buddhists refer to as the realm of the densely packed, a transformational realm where the opposites are unified.

I agree, quantum theory showed what ancient mystics always knew, that the solidarity of the world is a mirage.

Max planck, the founder of quantum, spoke of the matrix of all mater which he saw as consciousness.

“All Matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter.””

Atheism or scientistim is just is to rigid of a concept for my mind to stand behind. To me it’s illogical to close you mind to other concepts of space/time and purpose. It strangles creativity.

I don’t think nature is simply the random flight of atoms through electromagnetic fields. Nature is not the empty, despiritualized lumpen matter that we inherit from physics.

Or maybe it’s just what Paul Kurtz called the Transcendental Temptation.

Eh, who knows….

To see a world in a grain of sand,
And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
And eternity in an hour.

[Arraya]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

To me, Faith and Reason do support each other. They are the “two wings of enlightenment” and BOTH are necessary.[/quote]

Indeed, Allan, the Ying and Yang, IMO

Beware of the Cartesian Cavalry shouting “empiricism! empiricism! I don’t have a soul and I don’t want one!”

My degree is in Philosophy of science so I am well versed in being hostile towards meaning;)

To me, the irony of science has always been the one miracle needed to make the whole thing work. Which is the big bang theory. What could me more miraculous than that. Just give science their one miracle and the rest has to be empirically tested to be “truth”

A point of singularity that exploded into an electron plasma, then cooled into chemical compounds so forth and so on, all the way up to biological species in complex social systems connected to high speed fiber optics discussing meaning or lack thereof with other beings around the globe. Where is this train going?

A given about the universe it that is seeks complexity through a series of thermodynamic rebalancings. This is a given, yet science can not reconcile with an obvious direction, because, direction would indicate purpose or meaning.

Yet science is going to tell you that the only things worth describing are those phenomena that can be repeatedly triggered. This is being these are the only phenomena that science can describe and that’s the name of the game as far as they are concerned

A French Jesuit, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin came up with a theory around the turn of the century that I always liked.

to describe a maximum level of complexity and consciousness towards which the universe appears to be evolving. Teilhard’s term recurs in both intellectual works and popular culture, especially the cosmological theory proposed by the mathematical physicist Frank Tipler.

In this theory, the universe is constantly developing towards higher levels of material complexity and consciousness, a theory of evolution that Teilhard called the Law of Complexity/Consciousness. For Teilhard, the universe can only move in the direction of more complexity and consciousness if it is being drawn by a supreme point of complexity and consciousness. Thus Teilhard postulates the Omega Point as the supreme point of complexity and consciousness, which is not only as the term of the evolutionary process, but is also the actual cause for the universe to grow in complexity and consciousness. In other words, the Omega Point exists as supremely complex and conscious, independent of the evolving universe. I.e., the Omega Point is transcendent. In interpreting the universe this way, Teilhard kept the Omega Point within the orthodox views of the Christian God, who is transcendent (independent) of his creation.

Or what the Buddhists refer to as the realm of the densely packed, a transformational realm where the opposites are unified.

I agree, quantum theory showed what ancient mystics always knew, that the solidarity of the world is a mirage.

Max planck, the founder of quantum, spoke of the matrix of all mater which he saw as consciousness.

“All Matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter.””

Atheism or scientistim is just is to rigid of a concept for my mind to stand behind. To me it’s illogical to close you mind to other concepts of space/time and purpose. It strangles creativity.

I don’t think nature is simply the random flight of atoms through electromagnetic fields. Nature is not the empty, despiritualized lumpen matter that we inherit from physics.

Or maybe it’s just what Paul Kurtz called the Transcendental Temptation.

Eh, who knows….

To see a world in a grain of sand,
And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
And eternity in an hour.

[Arraya]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

To me, Faith and Reason do support each other. They are the “two wings of enlightenment” and BOTH are necessary.[/quote]

Indeed, Allan, the Ying and Yang, IMO

Beware of the Cartesian Cavalry shouting “empiricism! empiricism! I don’t have a soul and I don’t want one!”

My degree is in Philosophy of science so I am well versed in being hostile towards meaning;)

To me, the irony of science has always been the one miracle needed to make the whole thing work. Which is the big bang theory. What could me more miraculous than that. Just give science their one miracle and the rest has to be empirically tested to be “truth”

A point of singularity that exploded into an electron plasma, then cooled into chemical compounds so forth and so on, all the way up to biological species in complex social systems connected to high speed fiber optics discussing meaning or lack thereof with other beings around the globe. Where is this train going?

A given about the universe it that is seeks complexity through a series of thermodynamic rebalancings. This is a given, yet science can not reconcile with an obvious direction, because, direction would indicate purpose or meaning.

Yet science is going to tell you that the only things worth describing are those phenomena that can be repeatedly triggered. This is being these are the only phenomena that science can describe and that’s the name of the game as far as they are concerned

A French Jesuit, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin came up with a theory around the turn of the century that I always liked.

to describe a maximum level of complexity and consciousness towards which the universe appears to be evolving. Teilhard’s term recurs in both intellectual works and popular culture, especially the cosmological theory proposed by the mathematical physicist Frank Tipler.

In this theory, the universe is constantly developing towards higher levels of material complexity and consciousness, a theory of evolution that Teilhard called the Law of Complexity/Consciousness. For Teilhard, the universe can only move in the direction of more complexity and consciousness if it is being drawn by a supreme point of complexity and consciousness. Thus Teilhard postulates the Omega Point as the supreme point of complexity and consciousness, which is not only as the term of the evolutionary process, but is also the actual cause for the universe to grow in complexity and consciousness. In other words, the Omega Point exists as supremely complex and conscious, independent of the evolving universe. I.e., the Omega Point is transcendent. In interpreting the universe this way, Teilhard kept the Omega Point within the orthodox views of the Christian God, who is transcendent (independent) of his creation.

Or what the Buddhists refer to as the realm of the densely packed, a transformational realm where the opposites are unified.

I agree, quantum theory showed what ancient mystics always knew, that the solidarity of the world is a mirage.

Max planck, the founder of quantum, spoke of the matrix of all mater which he saw as consciousness.

“All Matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter.””

Atheism or scientistim is just is to rigid of a concept for my mind to stand behind. To me it’s illogical to close you mind to other concepts of space/time and purpose. It strangles creativity.

I don’t think nature is simply the random flight of atoms through electromagnetic fields. Nature is not the empty, despiritualized lumpen matter that we inherit from physics.

Or maybe it’s just what Paul Kurtz called the Transcendental Temptation.

Eh, who knows….

To see a world in a grain of sand,
And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
And eternity in an hour.

[Arraya]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

To me, Faith and Reason do support each other. They are the “two wings of enlightenment” and BOTH are necessary.[/quote]

Indeed, Allan, the Ying and Yang, IMO

Beware of the Cartesian Cavalry shouting “empiricism! empiricism! I don’t have a soul and I don’t want one!”

My degree is in Philosophy of science so I am well versed in being hostile towards meaning;)

To me, the irony of science has always been the one miracle needed to make the whole thing work. Which is the big bang theory. What could me more miraculous than that. Just give science their one miracle and the rest has to be empirically tested to be “truth”

A point of singularity that exploded into an electron plasma, then cooled into chemical compounds so forth and so on, all the way up to biological species in complex social systems connected to high speed fiber optics discussing meaning or lack thereof with other beings around the globe. Where is this train going?

A given about the universe it that is seeks complexity through a series of thermodynamic rebalancings. This is a given, yet science can not reconcile with an obvious direction, because, direction would indicate purpose or meaning.

Yet science is going to tell you that the only things worth describing are those phenomena that can be repeatedly triggered. This is being these are the only phenomena that science can describe and that’s the name of the game as far as they are concerned

A French Jesuit, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin came up with a theory around the turn of the century that I always liked.

to describe a maximum level of complexity and consciousness towards which the universe appears to be evolving. Teilhard’s term recurs in both intellectual works and popular culture, especially the cosmological theory proposed by the mathematical physicist Frank Tipler.

In this theory, the universe is constantly developing towards higher levels of material complexity and consciousness, a theory of evolution that Teilhard called the Law of Complexity/Consciousness. For Teilhard, the universe can only move in the direction of more complexity and consciousness if it is being drawn by a supreme point of complexity and consciousness. Thus Teilhard postulates the Omega Point as the supreme point of complexity and consciousness, which is not only as the term of the evolutionary process, but is also the actual cause for the universe to grow in complexity and consciousness. In other words, the Omega Point exists as supremely complex and conscious, independent of the evolving universe. I.e., the Omega Point is transcendent. In interpreting the universe this way, Teilhard kept the Omega Point within the orthodox views of the Christian God, who is transcendent (independent) of his creation.

Or what the Buddhists refer to as the realm of the densely packed, a transformational realm where the opposites are unified.

I agree, quantum theory showed what ancient mystics always knew, that the solidarity of the world is a mirage.

Max planck, the founder of quantum, spoke of the matrix of all mater which he saw as consciousness.

“All Matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter.””

Atheism or scientistim is just is to rigid of a concept for my mind to stand behind. To me it’s illogical to close you mind to other concepts of space/time and purpose. It strangles creativity.

I don’t think nature is simply the random flight of atoms through electromagnetic fields. Nature is not the empty, despiritualized lumpen matter that we inherit from physics.

Or maybe it’s just what Paul Kurtz called the Transcendental Temptation.

Eh, who knows….

To see a world in a grain of sand,
And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
And eternity in an hour.

[Author]

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