Downtown

[no_such_reality]

The Grande may be a nice building, but in the end, those one bedroom condos are not worth $100,000. Two bedrooms will be lucky to be worth $150K.

Maybe only $50,000 and $80,000.

Sadly, this thread kept my mind churning last night after going to bed. Is there a bunch of stuff included in the HOA? ( like GYM? Cable? etc.)

Maybe 4plex and some of the other landlords can help us out and figure out a model of how you could own these places and safely cover the required payments.

A quick check of Craigslist shows 65 properties listed when searching for Downtown max $1000 1B+. A massive 711 when removing downtown.

At a $50,000 purchase price, that little one bedroom with the $626 HOA, will have $42 in property tax, $249 in interest and another $40 or so in principle (not an expense). Not to mention the $10K down for 20% down. Total expense before you even start to manage or lease is $866/month. Add in some umbrella liability or insurance as a landlord for safety and you’re easily over $900/month which means any vacancy leave you upside down (before taxes)

Since downtown/gaslamp is a “destination” maybe you could take the 2bd room and use it as a vacation rental competiting with the hotels in the area. But still, that $663 HOA is devastating. What kind of occupancy would you need and what rate would you need to charge to generate cashflow? Maybe a 75% occupancy (year-round) on the weekends (Fri-Sat night) at $250/night? That would give you about $1625/month before vacation rental expenses (cleaning crew), management co. fees, etc. I don’t think that’s feasible. Hate to think about the where and tear for downtown partiers churning through though.

Other ideas? Can the numbers work for those properties in the Grande without a 90% price drop?

[PerryChase]

Downtown is definitely a lifestyle destination. The HOA normally include, water, gas, trash, security, gym and pool if the building has it. No cable or electricity. It’s true, if you own at the Grande you can easily expect $1200-$1300/mo in HOA and property taxes before you touch the mortgage.

You can rent 2bd for $3000/mo. That means that the landlord only gets $1800 for debt servicing. A big loss on his part.

Living at a property like the Grande, you should expect to have a “lifestyle” budget over and above what a normal family would spend. The reception anounces any visitor. It’s built so that you feel like you’re always living in a resort. They also have rental suites for you to rent for your guests.

Housing marketing is very lifestyle based these days. But we know that there is no such reality. I can picture the housewives spending all they free time cleaning (or not) their 3000sf ++ Mc Mansions. So much for relaxing with a margarita by the pool and enjoying the sunset views!

[no_such_reality]

Downtown is definitely a lifestyle destination.

Are there that many lifestyle consumers? Yes, I realize everybody thinks they are, but how many people are we really talking about? C-level in good sized companies that are in SD for business but live elsewhere, retired wealthy, wealthy to the point that they value the panche of a doorman more than $700/month?

If investors can’t use them as rentals, all the units need real owners.

If buyers are buying for “lifestyle”, they’ll want the prime units with the west ocean views unobstructed. That leaves 3/4s of the units with undesireable (city tower) views.

If the price goes down, the prestige factor of the lifestyle goes away.

At what % of current prices is it sustainable?

[PerryChase]

I agree very much with your analysis. I think that eventually, most of the non-view, non-prestige units Downtown will drop to a level the service workers can afford them — low $100s

Unlike single family houses, apartment/condo* buildings don’t age very well. They’ll look old and tired in a decade or two. Then no one will want to live in them anymore.

BTW, there are many more examples of losses Downtown. I just got tired of looking and posting. I’ll post more as I come accross them.

* It annoys me that I can’t call a condo an apartment because that’s what it is. Rental or owned, it’s still and apartment.

[DaCounselor]

Downtown was the epicenter of non-owner occupied flipper speculation, driving up not only prices but new starts. It will suffer the appropriate fate now that the speculators have retreated and the units sit empty.
_________________________________

“Unlike single family houses, apartment/condo* buildings don’t age very well. They’ll look old and tired in a decade or two. Then no one will want to live in them anymore.”

This blanket statement is flat-out untrue, not to mention irrelevant. Several of the prestige buildings downtown are older yet remain an elite address (see Harbor Club and the Meridian, for example). There is nothing “old and tired” about these addresses. And a sfr can certainly look more than “old and tired in a decade or two”.

Regardless, the simple fact is that “old and tired” properties have been selling like hotcakes in SD for years. How many “old and tired” houses in Clairemont or North Park were snapped up over the past 7 years?

While the more weathered properties are likely to languish in a buyers’ market (unless priced extremely well), in a market leaning slightly to largely in favor of the sellers there certainly will be many who will bid on and indeed live in these types of properties. To suggest otherwise shows ignorance of the very market we have just transitioned out of.

[PerryChase]

I’m well aware of the market. I looked (and almost bought) at the Meridian and Harbor club in the late 80s when they were built. Instead I opted to get an SFR in the suburbs. I now hate the suburbs (although I still love my house and my yard)

By old and tired, I’m not talking about properties such as Electra or the Grande. I’m talking about the studios and small unit in dark corners with no view but of the street. They are selling in the $300-400s right now. Imagine those units in a few years, stuffed to the gills with junk, with dirty kitchens and bathrooms and smelling of poor ventilation. All the glamour will be gone, they will not show well and they won’t command premium prices like they have been when they were brand new.

When you look at urban developments around the world, you always see junk next to the jewels. In Southern California, urban development is new and people just don’t understand it yet. Downtown San Diego is awfully big, and all of it will not be luxury apartments.

[no_such_reality]

Well, my 1st experience with it was Detroit, circa 1990. I don’t envision lofts circling central park on top of tony hotels, I see Chicago’s projects.

Yes, there will be premium location. Those with unobstructed ocean views. The 2Bd place in Grande with 1600 sq ft may do well if the view is from the room, the photos look like their from the roof.

The 1bd, at a cramped 700 ft, is an efficiency apartment. in the end, it’ll probably be bought by the person who owns the Ocean view one to be used as quazi-live in maid’s quarters.

Those views aren’t great when over the next five years all you’ll be look at is other condo high-rises.

[PerryChase]

$100k loss before expenses and holding costs. There goes the downpayment.
877 ISLAND AVENUE #301, SD – Downtown, CA 92101**
List Price: $700,000 – $700,000
Sales History
Date Price
06/10/2004 $800,000
03/21/2003 $629,900

Bedrooms: 1
Full Baths: 2
Partial Baths: 0
Square Feet: 1,696
Lot Size: N/A
Year Built: 2002
Listing Date: 11/13/06
On Market: 56 days
Type: CONDO/TH
Status: ACTIVE
MLS #: 066095388

http://www.ziprealty.com/buy_a_home/logged_in/search/home_detail.jsp?listing_num=066095388&page=7&mls=mls_sandiego&property_type=CONDO&cKey=64p2ps6j&source=SANDICOR&home_id=26978273&addedHome=true&cKey=rs62q9j6
http://sdlookup.com/PropertyDetails/tabid/53/forumid/1/view/topics/pid/9DE20BAC/Default.aspx

[PerryChase]

I love this property description. What a straight-shooting listing! The seller will be loosing a little after sales commissions and costs, not counting that fact that they overpaid for 2 year to live in this unit.
——
Description
For everyone who thought they missed all the great opportunites to buy, back in 2004, they didn’t, price rollback in effect! This upgraded former model looks wonderful, and is in the prime spot in amenity rich palermo. This exterior, end unit, west facing home is all decked out. See suppliment for more….
——-

1501 FRONT ST. #202, SD – Downtown, CA 92101**
List Price: $539,000 – $539,000
Sales History
Date Price
03/09/2005 $520,620

Bedrooms: 2
Full Baths: 2
Partial Baths: 0
Square Feet: 1,068
Lot Size: N/A
Year Built: 2004
Listing Date: 11/11/06
On Market: 58 days
Type: CONDO/TH
Status: ACTIVE
MLS #: 066095218

http://www.ziprealty.com/buy_a_home/logged_in/search/home_detail.jsp?listing_num=066095218&page=7&property_type=CONDO&mls=mls_sandiego&cKey=7skk3plj&source=SANDICOR
http://sdlookup.com/PropertyDetails/tabid/53/forumid/1/view/topics/pid/C51DE3D0/Default.aspx

[no_such_reality]

877 ISLAND AVENUE #301, SD – Downtown, CA 92101**
List Price: $700,000 – $700,000

Is this one of those posh places? I see the $657 HOA, but I don’t see fluff and fold in the HOA services.

Since the condo lists laundry as common facilty makes me think you’ll have to schlep out from under your exposed ductwork down to the laundry room.

Must be lifestyle, if you live here you don’t need a washer & dryer, you just send it all out to be dry cleaned or laundered.

[PerryChase]

Definitely 2004 Pricing.

1643 6TH AVENUE #405, SD – Downtown, CA 92101**

List Price: $720,000 – $720,000
Sales History
Date Price
10/07/2004 $795,661

Bedrooms: 3
Full Baths: 2
Partial Baths: 0
Square Feet: 1,702
Lot Size: N/A
Year Built: 2004
Listing Date: 09/27/06
On Market: 104 days
Type: CONDO/TH
Status: ACTIVE
MLS #: 066082681

http://sdlookup.com/PropertyDetails/tabid/53/forumid/1/view/topics/pid/263A98BA/Default.aspx

http://www.ziprealty.com/buy_a_home/logged_in/search/home_detail.jsp?listing_num=066082681&page=3&mls=mls_sandiego&property_type=CONDO&cKey=tdrl205q&source=SANDICOR&home_id=27020546&addedHome=true&cKey=g4zvrsh3

Description
Motivated seller-see cfr. Awesome property & opportunity to own an almost-new 3-br(!),top flr,sw corner unit w/fabulous views,3 balconies,an oversized granite kitchen w/movable center island,crown molding,huge laundry rm, & a bright & sunny interior-priced @ an amazing $423 per sq.Ft!Definitely the best-priced 3-br downtown
——-

The best-priced Downtown but still sitting for 104 days.

[PerryChase]

Crappy washer/dryer downtown. That’s one thing that bothers me with downtown condos. For the price they want, sellers should at least provide premium appliances not the cheap kinds that you’d want to throw away.

[no_such_reality]

Wow, someone actually paid $800,000 for a 3 bedroom apartment.

When you look at your Cedars complex property on Zip, one of the others it highlights is on India St.

love picture #6, gotta keep the bicycles in the 2nd bedroom because there’s no place else to store them. Guess that bedroom really isn’t used.

Talk about making feel like you’re in an apartment, bicycles rusting away on the balconies.

[PerryChase]

Another loss at the Grande. Notice that they started day 1 at a list price that’s 50k lower than their purchase price a little over a year ago. A remorseful flipper?

1205 PACIFIC HWY #503, SD – Downtown, CA 92101**
List Price: $699,000 – $699,000
Sales History
Date Price
10/28/2005 $749,000
08/01/2005 $594,000

Bedrooms: 2
Full Baths: 2
Partial Baths: 0
Square Feet: 1,336
Lot Size: N/A
Year Built: 2005
Listing Date: 01/09/07
On Market: 1 day
Type: CONDO/TH
Status: ACTIVE
MLS #: 076002615

http://sdlookup.com/PropertyDetails/tabid/53/forumid/1/view/topics/pid/557286FA/Default.aspx
http://www.ziprealty.com/buy_a_home/logged_in/search/home_detail.jsp?listing_num=076002615&mls=mls_sandiego&cKey=mxvd6394&source=SANDICOR

[no_such_reality]

Is that pool table in the Grande in a common room? Or is this a repeat listing?

I’ve seen that pool table in pictures for the Grande before on Zip.

Also, #503, doesn’t have a single photo of the condo. It’s all common areas.

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