do you know what the federal reserve is?

[davelj]

[quote=investor]
Davelj. Well, I have been reading this site for about 5 years but I have only begun to enter threads recently. As far as the tone of your blogs.Lets say that we are at a social gathering. You meet someone for the first time and the discussion turns to the federal reserve. The person that you are talking to has a different opinion than you. That person then begins to tell you that you cannot seriously believe what you are saying, no-one would take you seriously and that your opinions are irrelevant. Oh, and he seems angry at you while he is saying this. All on the first meeting. What kind of impression does that person give you? Would you care to converse further with that person or write them off as a rude, arrogant SOB whom you never hpoe to meet again? Responding to blogs is similar in that you are interfacing with real people who do have feelings. Some level of etiquette should be followed, don’t you think? [/quote]

That is a rather dramatic mischaracterization of our discussion here thus far, which is par for the course for you. Here’s our discussion in a nutshell: You read Griffin’s book on the Fed, took it all in as The Truth, and posted about it here, ending with the haughty and arrogant:”All of you economics professors, don’t feel bad if you don’t know the real power behind the money/ central banks. NO ONE is taught this.” To paraphrase your original post: “I know The Truth!! Everyone else is a bunch of Dummies!! Look at me, look at me!!” I subsequently pointed out that there was one little obvious niggling problem with your supposition that – and I quote (again) – the Fed’s ownership is “mostly unknown” but probably is comprised of “the wealthiest people on earth.” This inconvenient observation irritated you a little, then we went back and forth a little bit and you pulled out the cheapest debate stunt there is, which is basically saying, “Well if you’re unwilling to read part of Griffin’s book and refute it point by point, then I’m right, you’re wrong and the discussion’s over.” THAT leads me back to YOUR questions above (and I quote): “What kind of impression does that person give you? Would you care to converse further with that person or write them off as a rude, arrogant SOB whom you never hpoe to meet again?”

In other words: Pot, meet Kettle.

I have two problems with your posting style in this thread:

(1) You seem awfully sure of everything on this topic you post and I don’t get the impression that you really have the background to be so sure (that is, if anyone can be so sure of anything – as I occasionally tell folks with this affliction, “You seem more sure of everything than I am of anything”);
(2) As I mentioned above, declaring that someone’s wrong about a particular issue simply because they’re unwilling to spend a bunch of time refuting some obscure passage of a relatively obscure book is a ridiculous debate tactic, and one worthy of extreme mockery, frankly.
[quote=investor]
Now, for the topic at hand.I don’t think any economics books cover the cash flow through the fed well at all. Especially the in depth way that griffin does. I could be wrong as I have not read what you have. I have re-read my macro-economics book (Mankiw) who does not give a good explanation of how the money goes through the fed. I’ll make you a deal. You give me an economics book (with page numbers) that does explain how the money flows and I will read it. you borrow the griffin book (since I am sure you do not want to support his ridiculous book), read those 6 pages and then write back on this site to compare notes. Deal? (Also, my opinion does matter as does yours. We may not be able to change who is president but sharing opinions and ideas is the basic building block of a free society.)[/quote]

First of all, re-reading a Macro textbook for this discussion is a step in the wrong direction. I said, “Money and Banking,” which is a very different subject from Macro (albeit tangentially related) and deals with the very issue we’ve been discussing. That you don’t realize this speaks volumes. It took me all of 30 seconds to find the following article online:

http://www.rayservers.com/images/ModernMoneyMechanics.pdf

Honestly, I just skimmed it – it’s 50 pages long – and deals mostly with the expansion of the money supply. But… it also spends several pages on flows between the Treasury and the Fed. And what I REALLY like about it is that it is extremely detailed and actually outlines the debits and credits associated with each financial interaction within the Fed System. I’ll assume since you think you know a lot about all of this that you have a background in accounting, as I do, and will be able to follow the entries. (I’m guessing – and please tell me if I’m wrong – that Griffin’s manifesto doesn’t contain the words debit or credit… anywhere. Just an observation.) So, while this article probably isn’t *exactly* what you’re looking for, I bet it’s a big step in the right direction – that is, pretty close. So, instead of asking ME to spend MY time reading a widely discredited book and then explaining things to YOU, why don’t YOU spend YOUR time educating YOURSELF. And this has the additional benefit of your not having to converse with someone – me – that you find so unpleasant. It’s a win-win!!

This whole “compare notes” thing, quite frankly, sounds awfully time consuming from my end. And, more importantly, I don’t really care *that much* what you think you know. Believe what you want – it’s no skin off my back.

[greekfire]

Breaking out the “I don’t have time to read your sources” card isn’t a very strong argument, in my humble opinion. What “widely discredited” piece of writing do you speak of? Is it the same “Creature From Jekyll Island” book authored by G. Edward Griffin? I don’t agree with everything in said book, but would love for you to enlighten us on how said book has been “widely discredited”. Hard sources are welcomed…

[greekfire]

Breaking out the “I don’t have time to read your sources” card isn’t a very strong argument, in my humble opinion. What “widely discredited” piece of writing do you speak of? Is it the same “Creature From Jekyll Island” book authored by G. Edward Griffin? I don’t agree with everything in said book, but would love for you to enlighten us on how said book has been “widely discredited”. Hard sources are welcomed…

[greekfire]

Breaking out the “I don’t have time to read your sources” card isn’t a very strong argument, in my humble opinion. What “widely discredited” piece of writing do you speak of? Is it the same “Creature From Jekyll Island” book authored by G. Edward Griffin? I don’t agree with everything in said book, but would love for you to enlighten us on how said book has been “widely discredited”. Hard sources are welcomed…

[greekfire]

Breaking out the “I don’t have time to read your sources” card isn’t a very strong argument, in my humble opinion. What “widely discredited” piece of writing do you speak of? Is it the same “Creature From Jekyll Island” book authored by G. Edward Griffin? I don’t agree with everything in said book, but would love for you to enlighten us on how said book has been “widely discredited”. Hard sources are welcomed…

[greekfire]

Breaking out the “I don’t have time to read your sources” card isn’t a very strong argument, in my humble opinion. What “widely discredited” piece of writing do you speak of? Is it the same “Creature From Jekyll Island” book authored by G. Edward Griffin? I don’t agree with everything in said book, but would love for you to enlighten us on how said book has been “widely discredited”. Hard sources are welcomed…

[aldante]

Well we can discuss history of the Fed all we want but why not talk about the effectiveness of this secret organization?
One small observation that I will make. The Federal Reserve Chairman in MAY of 2008 told this country that we need not worry about the failure of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. He also said that we need not worry about a recession. Meanwhile the “anti fed” crowd – Ron Paul, Peter Schiff, Marc Faber had been telling us for years that we were in a massive bubble and more importantly why we were in the bubble. They also predicted what would happen! So people on this site think that the Federal Reserve is valuable and are “smart” when it could not even predict the bubble that it created? (Head spinning now……..) This is the greatest financial debacle of our generation (so far). I think the Fed has lost all credibility and must be audited.
There seems to be an underlying current that we “need” the Federal Reserve. If you look at the loss of buying power since 1913 – we need the Federal Reserve like a hole in the head. That is when the Fed was created and depending on who you listen too the dollar has lost 93% of its purchasing power. What does that mean? I think that it means that kids have to take out massive amounts of loans to get a decent education. It means that the single income household is a thing of the past. It means that healthcare costs have skyrocketed. It means that many of us who have been paying into the Social Security system are seriously questioning if we will ever get any $$ back out.

[aldante]

Well we can discuss history of the Fed all we want but why not talk about the effectiveness of this secret organization?
One small observation that I will make. The Federal Reserve Chairman in MAY of 2008 told this country that we need not worry about the failure of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. He also said that we need not worry about a recession. Meanwhile the “anti fed” crowd – Ron Paul, Peter Schiff, Marc Faber had been telling us for years that we were in a massive bubble and more importantly why we were in the bubble. They also predicted what would happen! So people on this site think that the Federal Reserve is valuable and are “smart” when it could not even predict the bubble that it created? (Head spinning now……..) This is the greatest financial debacle of our generation (so far). I think the Fed has lost all credibility and must be audited.
There seems to be an underlying current that we “need” the Federal Reserve. If you look at the loss of buying power since 1913 – we need the Federal Reserve like a hole in the head. That is when the Fed was created and depending on who you listen too the dollar has lost 93% of its purchasing power. What does that mean? I think that it means that kids have to take out massive amounts of loans to get a decent education. It means that the single income household is a thing of the past. It means that healthcare costs have skyrocketed. It means that many of us who have been paying into the Social Security system are seriously questioning if we will ever get any $$ back out.

[aldante]

Well we can discuss history of the Fed all we want but why not talk about the effectiveness of this secret organization?
One small observation that I will make. The Federal Reserve Chairman in MAY of 2008 told this country that we need not worry about the failure of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. He also said that we need not worry about a recession. Meanwhile the “anti fed” crowd – Ron Paul, Peter Schiff, Marc Faber had been telling us for years that we were in a massive bubble and more importantly why we were in the bubble. They also predicted what would happen! So people on this site think that the Federal Reserve is valuable and are “smart” when it could not even predict the bubble that it created? (Head spinning now……..) This is the greatest financial debacle of our generation (so far). I think the Fed has lost all credibility and must be audited.
There seems to be an underlying current that we “need” the Federal Reserve. If you look at the loss of buying power since 1913 – we need the Federal Reserve like a hole in the head. That is when the Fed was created and depending on who you listen too the dollar has lost 93% of its purchasing power. What does that mean? I think that it means that kids have to take out massive amounts of loans to get a decent education. It means that the single income household is a thing of the past. It means that healthcare costs have skyrocketed. It means that many of us who have been paying into the Social Security system are seriously questioning if we will ever get any $$ back out.

[aldante]

Well we can discuss history of the Fed all we want but why not talk about the effectiveness of this secret organization?
One small observation that I will make. The Federal Reserve Chairman in MAY of 2008 told this country that we need not worry about the failure of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. He also said that we need not worry about a recession. Meanwhile the “anti fed” crowd – Ron Paul, Peter Schiff, Marc Faber had been telling us for years that we were in a massive bubble and more importantly why we were in the bubble. They also predicted what would happen! So people on this site think that the Federal Reserve is valuable and are “smart” when it could not even predict the bubble that it created? (Head spinning now……..) This is the greatest financial debacle of our generation (so far). I think the Fed has lost all credibility and must be audited.
There seems to be an underlying current that we “need” the Federal Reserve. If you look at the loss of buying power since 1913 – we need the Federal Reserve like a hole in the head. That is when the Fed was created and depending on who you listen too the dollar has lost 93% of its purchasing power. What does that mean? I think that it means that kids have to take out massive amounts of loans to get a decent education. It means that the single income household is a thing of the past. It means that healthcare costs have skyrocketed. It means that many of us who have been paying into the Social Security system are seriously questioning if we will ever get any $$ back out.

[aldante]

Well we can discuss history of the Fed all we want but why not talk about the effectiveness of this secret organization?
One small observation that I will make. The Federal Reserve Chairman in MAY of 2008 told this country that we need not worry about the failure of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. He also said that we need not worry about a recession. Meanwhile the “anti fed” crowd – Ron Paul, Peter Schiff, Marc Faber had been telling us for years that we were in a massive bubble and more importantly why we were in the bubble. They also predicted what would happen! So people on this site think that the Federal Reserve is valuable and are “smart” when it could not even predict the bubble that it created? (Head spinning now……..) This is the greatest financial debacle of our generation (so far). I think the Fed has lost all credibility and must be audited.
There seems to be an underlying current that we “need” the Federal Reserve. If you look at the loss of buying power since 1913 – we need the Federal Reserve like a hole in the head. That is when the Fed was created and depending on who you listen too the dollar has lost 93% of its purchasing power. What does that mean? I think that it means that kids have to take out massive amounts of loans to get a decent education. It means that the single income household is a thing of the past. It means that healthcare costs have skyrocketed. It means that many of us who have been paying into the Social Security system are seriously questioning if we will ever get any $$ back out.

[investor]

[quote=jpinpb][quote=investor]Have the fed completly audited through pressure on congress, to include ownership of all stock.[/quote]

I honestly don’t see that happening. Everyone in Congress would be bought before that happens. Heck, even if that were ever to happen, how hard is it to cook books nowadays?[/quote]
I agree, it will be hard and only possible through pressure from voters or from a complete collapse of our financial system. But, with the current tea party momentum….

[investor]

[quote=jpinpb][quote=investor]Have the fed completly audited through pressure on congress, to include ownership of all stock.[/quote]

I honestly don’t see that happening. Everyone in Congress would be bought before that happens. Heck, even if that were ever to happen, how hard is it to cook books nowadays?[/quote]
I agree, it will be hard and only possible through pressure from voters or from a complete collapse of our financial system. But, with the current tea party momentum….

[investor]

[quote=jpinpb][quote=investor]Have the fed completly audited through pressure on congress, to include ownership of all stock.[/quote]

I honestly don’t see that happening. Everyone in Congress would be bought before that happens. Heck, even if that were ever to happen, how hard is it to cook books nowadays?[/quote]
I agree, it will be hard and only possible through pressure from voters or from a complete collapse of our financial system. But, with the current tea party momentum….

[investor]

[quote=jpinpb][quote=investor]Have the fed completly audited through pressure on congress, to include ownership of all stock.[/quote]

I honestly don’t see that happening. Everyone in Congress would be bought before that happens. Heck, even if that were ever to happen, how hard is it to cook books nowadays?[/quote]
I agree, it will be hard and only possible through pressure from voters or from a complete collapse of our financial system. But, with the current tea party momentum….

[Author]

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