Home › Forums › Financial Markets/Economics › dang those overpaid underworked wastrel firefighters again..
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CA renter.
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August 9, 2012 at 8:40 PM #20048August 10, 2012 at 6:22 AM #749986
Anonymous
GuestYes, today’s firefighters are more “paramedic” than “firefighter.”
I don’t see any problem with that.
The linked article is basically a partisan crap, but it does raise one important issue: disability fraud among government retirees. It’s widespread, it’s disgusting, and it says a lot about the ethics and culture of certain so-called “public servants.”
People who have dangerous jobs should have access to disability insurance. Public safety employees who are killed or legitimately hurt on the job should be compensated generously (including their dependents.) There’s no debate there.
But this system where people in their fifties get lifetime annual bonus checks because “my knee hurts” is utter BS.
First, there’s no reason that disability compensation should be tied to retirement benefits. End the ridiculously corrupt pension system. Retirement and disability are separate issues, they don’t need to be entangled. It’s a recipe for fraud.
Give public-sector employees a 401K and a (separate) disability insurance policy, just like mainstream compensation in the private sector. The disability insurance for public-safety employees should be generous, but it should have nothing to do with “retirement.” It’s about injuries, period.
Second, there should be a more than a few bankers in jail right now, and they should each have “injured” retired firefighters as cellmates.
August 10, 2012 at 6:51 AM #749988moneymaker
ParticipantAnyone know why they roll a humungous fire truck along with the ambulance on a call that is clearly not fire related. Perhaps if they had not done that then station 17 would have had someone there to save the life of that person that died in their driveway a week ago.
August 10, 2012 at 7:19 AM #749993GuestI think it’s just a practical tradeoff. The fire truck is their “vehicle.” Otherwise they would have to switch vehicles and perhaps find themselves far from the truck when there actually is a fire.
Maybe there are better ways to do it, but I trust that the firefighters have their actual jobs figured out.
In general I that our CA public-safety employees are a very professional group, and I don’t think any of us are in a position to second-guess their operational procedures.
But unfortunately, way too many of them succumb to the temptations of disability fraud at the end of their careers. We need to eliminate that temptation.
August 10, 2012 at 8:02 AM #749994briansd1
GuestAbout disabilities, it would be good to have some investigators tailing those disabled public servants to see how they are really disabled. A few high profile prosecutions and the practice will go away.
August 10, 2012 at 8:38 AM #749999livinincali
ParticipantIn San Diego disability is self insured, meaning whatever disability claim the city gets from city workers come out of the general fund (the tax payers pocket). In a city this large it probably makes some sense to do this, why pay the overhead to an insurance company. Of course it’s just tax payer money, so nobody really cares if there’s fraud going on. A private company that is looking out for it’s bottom line would probably care a lot more if there was fraud going on and would probably spend the money to investigate it.
I did a project for RISK management about 10 years back and firefighters tended to be the worst in terms of committing these type of acts. We were importing time records from a mainframe into a new database and we’d get failures because fire fighters would have more than 24 hours booked in a day. 8 hours light duty and then 24 hours of regular pay in a day. I was young and naive at the time but if it was today I probably would have reported it.
Things might be better now, it was a long time ago, but I somehow doubt it.
August 10, 2012 at 9:35 AM #750009Guest[quote=livinincali]In a city this large it probably makes some sense to do this, why pay the overhead to an insurance company.[/quote]
The reason you “pay the overhead to an insurance company” is so that, when the insurance company screws up and miscalculates the risk, they pay for the mistake and not the taxpayer.
We’ve learned from CalPERS that incompetence rules the day when there’s no penalty for failure.
August 10, 2012 at 10:52 AM #750016sdduuuude
Participant[quote=harvey]Second, there should be a more than a few bankers in jail right now, and they should each have “injured” retired firefighters as cellmates.[/quote]
Nice.
August 10, 2012 at 5:17 PM #750046CA renter
Participant[quote=harvey]Yes, today’s firefighters are more “paramedic” than “firefighter.”
I don’t see any problem with that.
The linked article is basically a partisan crap, but it does raise one important issue: disability fraud among government retirees. It’s widespread, it’s disgusting, and it says a lot about the ethics and culture of certain so-called “public servants.”
People who have dangerous jobs should have access to disability insurance. Public safety employees who are killed or legitimately hurt on the job should be compensated generously (including their dependents.) There’s no debate there.
But this system where people in their fifties get lifetime annual bonus checks because “my knee hurts” is utter BS.
First, there’s no reason that disability compensation should be tied to retirement benefits. End the ridiculously corrupt pension system. Retirement and disability are separate issues, they don’t need to be entangled. It’s a recipe for fraud.
Give public-sector employees a 401K and a (separate) disability insurance policy, just like mainstream compensation in the private sector. The disability insurance for public-safety employees should be generous, but it should have nothing to do with “retirement.” It’s about injuries, period.
Second, there should be a more than a few bankers in jail right now, and they should each have “injured” retired firefighters as cellmates.[/quote]
Other than the 401k nonsense (there are less costly, more effective, and legal ways to address the pension problems), I agree very much with the rest of your post.
As someone who defends public workers because I think the vast majority of them are extemely honorable, hard-working, and deserving of what they get (not to mention essential in a civilized society), there is nothing I hate more than people who try to scam the system. Yes, they exist, and I would love to see them lose their jobs and all benefits.
August 11, 2012 at 1:09 AM #750057Participant[quote=moneymaker]Anyone know why they roll a humungous fire truck along with the ambulance on a call that is clearly not fire related. Perhaps if they had not done that then station 17 would have had someone there to save the life of that person that died in their driveway a week ago.[/quote]
From another thread…
[quote=CA renter][quote=briansd1][quote=no_such_reality]
Same basic mindset as with LAFD that requires a fire truck team to be dispatched on every call even though 98% are medical only calls.
A city that isn’t growing and rejuvenating is a stagnant and dead city.[/quote]
I agree.
Old folks on fixed income in a no-growth city won’t be paying the pay raises of public employees.
It’s kinda screwed to dispatch fire engines for medical calls. I’ve noticed that way too often.[/quote]
In many cases, the fire engines/trucks are dispatched because they can arrive on scene sooner. In many (most) departments, there are more trucks/engines than ambulances because when there’s a fire, they need all the trucks (and often bring trucks in from neighboring departments, too). They typically don’t need multiple ambulances all at once. If the ambulances are in a distant location or on other calls, the patients can be treated sooner; and in emergency services, response times are everything.
Anyway, the trucks/engines that you see dispatched to medical calls almost always have paramedics (that tends to be the requirement these days, though there might be some with older EMTs) and all the medical equipment. They can treat the patient sooner. The difference between an engine/truck and ambulance is that the truck can’t transport.
Additionally, most ambulances only have two employees on board (two paramedics or paramedic/EMT team). On many calls, they need additional personnel because one or two people might be working directly on the patient [edit: and getting medical history from family members or searching through medicine cabinets, etc. if no family member is there, etc.], another communicating with the hospital, another setting up equipment/medication, one to possibly deal with transport/helicopter landings, etc. (you don’t see this at the site, they almost always have to transport the patient to an off-site landing zone). Then, there are the 300++ pound patients who need to be carried down stairs or through narrow passageways, etc.
Believe it or not, the fire departments do know what they’re doing. Even though you might not understand what’s going on, it doesn’t mean that they’re wasting resources or taxpayers’ money.[/quote]
August 11, 2012 at 10:17 PM #750076paramount
ParticipantYes, the sanctified firefighters and police are proven to single hand-idly bankrupt cities and California (re: San Bernardino).
August 12, 2012 at 1:00 AM #750082ParticipantWe’ve already done that one, paramount, go re-read the thread to find out why they are having so much trouble in SB and Stockton, etc. It’s not because the public sector employees have bankrupted the cities, no matter how many times try to pin the blame on them.
August 12, 2012 at 1:21 AM #750083Participant[quote=CA renter]
As someone who defends public workers because I think the vast majority of them are extemely honorable, hard-working, and deserving of what they get (not to mention essential in a civilized society), there is nothing I hate more than people who try to scam the system. Yes, they exist, and I would love to see them lose their jobs and all benefits.[/quote]
Oh here we go again, public employee exceptional-ism.
The read between the line message of course is if you don’t work for the gov’t you must not be honorable; or at least not ‘extremely’ honorable.
August 12, 2012 at 10:10 AM #750096ParticipantHere’s some real hero-types !
Viva la union.
http://briancalle.ocregister.com/2012/08/10/hermosa-beach-meter-maids-making-nearly-100k/
August 12, 2012 at 1:59 PM #750107Participant[quote=sdduuuude]Here’s some real hero-types !
Viva la union.
Why am I not surprised that meter maids make a 100k+ as a California Public Union Employee?
I do hear they are EXTREMELY honorable though…
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