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May 7, 2007 at 11:19 AM #9011May 7, 2007 at 11:47 AM #51973no_such_realityParticipant
This was covered a couple weeks ago when the original smartmoney article came out.
The real benefit of renting is it keeps you from over-consuming housing. You don’t get a three bedroom until you need a three bedroom. People are content renting a one bedroom but typically want to buy a 3/2.
You change jobs, you change rentals and still have a 7 minute commute. Big house filled with stuff? Nope. A small kitchen set, living set and bedroom set. No dining room collecting dust. No need for four TVs in the living room, family room, kitchen counter and bedroom. etc. & so on.
Transaction costs in buying RE makes it like signing a 3 or 4 year lease. ( how many people willingly sell multi-year leases without significant discounts?). Unless you need a 3/2, 4/2+ with yard, there’s little reason to get one everything else, is simply more available as a rental.
May 7, 2007 at 1:01 PM #51981PerryChaseParticipantIt used to be that the rule of thumb was $1000/month carrying cost (including taxes & maintenance) for each $100,000 borrowed. Exotic loans and teaser rates changed that.
Interest rate resets and high overall interest rates will make that come true again. I’m amazed at how many of my peers have forgotten the early 90s. Over this past weekend, a friend visiting from Orange County was asking me about investing in San Diego where prices are lower.
May 7, 2007 at 1:18 PM #51984PDParticipantOn Saturday I was talking to a woman who told me that she was looking into buying a condo. I cautioned her and advised that she do some research as the market was probably going to be heading south for some time. She told me at least three times, “I just really want to INVEST in something.” I wanted to tell her that she was about to invest her way into financial destruction.
People just don’t get it yet. It isn’t going to sink in until they start seeing their friends and neighbors in trouble.May 7, 2007 at 1:32 PM #51987no_such_realityParticipantIt used to be that the rule of thumb was $1000/month carrying cost (including taxes & maintenance) for each $100,000 borrowed. Exotic loans and teaser rates changed that.
PC I think you’re confusing the 1% rule. When the monthly rent collected get’s to 1% of the purchase price of the home(SFR), you can expect to get cash flow positive. Anything less and you are cashflow negative draining money from yourself.
For condos, high mello-roos and HOA areas that is slightly higher due to the extra fees. (Some argue that it cancels in slightly less maintenance).
May 7, 2007 at 1:37 PM #51988surveyorParticipantN/A
This article is only applicable to certain areas of the country where it is cheaper to rent than to own. For those places where rent is about equal to ownership, his argument starts breaking down.
For San Diego, New York, and other bubble areas, yes what he is saying applies.
May 7, 2007 at 2:26 PM #51991kewpParticipant“This article is only applicable to certain areas of the country where it is cheaper to rent than to own.”
Well thats the thing, its supposed to be cheaper to rent than to own. How are you supposed to make money renting new properties, otherwise?
As an aside, I think the one factor more than anything else that is going to put the brakes on the inevitable crash in San Diego is all the savvy RE investors that dumped properties in 2005 and are eager to buy back in.
May 7, 2007 at 2:40 PM #51994NeetaTParticipantThe article further corroborates the fact that property tax is the worm in the apple of home ownership.
May 7, 2007 at 3:15 PM #51997kewpParticipantoops, make that ‘it should be cheaper to own than to rent’.
May 7, 2007 at 3:18 PM #51998daveljParticipantThe author is a clown. He completely omits the positive impact of leverage over long periods of time. For example, if I purchase a property that is “fairly valued,” with a 20% down payment and it increases at 3%/year (that is, zero real return after 3% inflation), my nominal return is 15%/year on my invested capital (and 12%/year after inflation) assuming I relever the property every few years to maintain 20% equity.
Omitting the impact of leverage when looking at buying a house or evaluating a real estate investment is like omitting the impact of earnings when valuing a company. It completely discredits the author.
Furthermore, his 7% real return assumption from owning businesses is largely dependent on his starting points for calculating such returns (when valuations were relatively low). There have been plenty of one- to two-decade periods for which the return from owning businesses was in the low single digits. It’s probably best to assume a “real return” of about 4% over the long term. That’s 2% productivity growth plus 2% growth in the population – and I’m being VERY generous.
It’s hard to believe that articles this fallacious actually get published. Who edits this stuff?
May 7, 2007 at 3:42 PM #52000blahblahblahParticipantThe author is a clown. He completely omits the positive impact of leverage over long periods of time. For example, if I purchase a property that is “fairly valued,” with a 20% down payment and it increases at 3%/year (that is, zero real return after 3% inflation), my nominal return is 15%/year on my invested capital (and 12%/year after inflation) assuming I relever the property every few years to maintain 20% equity.
Sounds like you’ve invented the financial perpetual motion machine. Why are you wasting your time posting here on Piggington when you should be frolicking in the Mediterranean on your 100ft yacht?
May 7, 2007 at 4:01 PM #52002surveyorParticipantleveraging
It doesn’t take overnight and it won’t make you a bazillionaire, but you can get rich using real estate through what davelj says.
Don’t let your ideology blind you to the fact that there are ways to make money in this real estate market, bubble or no.
May 7, 2007 at 4:02 PM #52004PerryChaseParticipantI concur that money can and is always being made in real estate, bubble or not.
However, purchasing a personal residence as a investment is not the way to do so, as correctly pointed out in the article. Since you live in the house, you forgo any potential rental income. Plus, by purchasing you’re likely to be consuming more than you would otherwise be if you were renting.
May 7, 2007 at 5:02 PM #52006blahblahblahParticipantI don’t buy the 12% year after year inflation returns in the general case. If you were really able to get real estate returns like that with such a simple method, no one would even bother with stocks or bonds. A very savvy investor might be able to do this with selected properties, but he’d have to be really sharp to beat the market by such a wide margin. It is true that there will always be money to be made in real estate, it just rubs me the wrong way when people post about their 15% annual returns and say that everyone else is a clown for not being able to achieve the same thing.
May 7, 2007 at 5:03 PM #52007TheChazParticipantRegarding the leverage point, doesn’t he counter that by saying that you can borrow to by stocks as well? A margin balance will allow you to leverage stock purchases, right?
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